Belle

I stand behind my statement 100%, OM.

OM, animals do not have reasoning and rationalization capabilities and to compare people with animals is rather crass. Calling people mentally disturbed is even worse and your lack of heart, empathy and desire to even show an ounce of compassion prevents you from understanding anything. I'm getting the feeling that you must be a very bitter, very lonely man and always will be. I feel terribly sorry for any kids that you might have because to me you seem to fit the classic TWIt definition of without natural affection. In which case, you would be much better of TWIt-ville. Tell me where you are located and I'll find a fellowship for you. I'm sure they would love to have you back. Just because you don't understand or happen to disagree with something doesn't mean that you're right. It's just darn dangerous to think that way. If you were seeking to genuinely understand many of us would be happy to "discuss" things with you, but if all you can do is attack, ridicule and insult - just keep your fingers still.

How's Flat doing? Is he having fun??

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! :D-->

HAPPIEST OF DAYS TO YOU, REIKILADY!!! :)--> :D--> :D--> :)-->

BLASPHEMY! COMPLETE AND UTTER BLASPHEMY, I TELL YA!! :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> Even Paul Simon goes to Graceland: I'm going to Graceland, Graceland In Memphis, Tennessee I'm going to Graceland Poorboys and pilgrims with families And we are going to Graceland In Graceland, in Graceland I'm going to Graceland For reasons I cannot explain There's some part of me wants to see Graceland And I may be obliged to defend Every love, every ending Or maybe there's no obligations now Maybe I've a reason to believe We all will be received in Graceland I'm not all that into going to funerals or visitations for anyone. It's just too much for me to bear and I sure as he11 wouldn't be standing out in the heat for hours upon hours for someone I didn't really know. I do respect the man and I appreciate more and more what he has done. I especially admire that he never forgot or took forgranted where he came from and the atrocities he witnessed first hand. He was never bitter either and did his best to heal hearts whereever and however he could. Different people show respect in different ways and the Catholic church is notorious for followers who value physical presence and personal experience in many areas - hence pilgrimages to see visions of Mary and such. Different cultures and countries likewise more commonly make major journies to special places. If you weren't raised that way, as I wasn't, it's just not something we would "get" very easily.

Things aren't always as simple as you like to make them out to be, OM. Remember, too, that apparently your experience (and Galen's) are in the minority here. I was pretty "waffle-y" in my involvement when I first got involved. I didn't like the micro-management of the person "undersheperding" me through PFAL, but I liked getting to SEE the man I had only listened to previously, so I put up with it. I didn't much care for the people who were hosting the class, they seemed cold, regimented and annoyed with us coming to their house every night. But I wanted to hear the class again and this time it was on video. I didn't much care for most of the people in the class. They didn't even know where the books of the Bible were and I suspect that some of them couldn't read. (Yes, I was that shallow) But it was just 3 weeks long and I could put up with that. I didn't like feeling obligated to go witnessing or to give my money to them, but I really liked my HFCs and they filled a "parental" void that I had at the time since my parents were so far away. I did quit going for a while but then I was devastated by something that happened in my life and called my HFC who handled me with loving kid gloves. She was the only adult I really knew and trusted in my town. (I was only about 22 years old). So, I started going back to fellowship, more consistently at first. I felt ignorant and stupid because I wasn't an AC grad and I really had no desire to be, but I hung around because I didn't really have anything better to do and I was learning and liking the teachings in the fellowship. The tapes from hq were boring and, as, craig got more and more obnoxious they were worse than boring and I started feeling obligated to try to live up to the standards he was teaching about. I started skipping meetings again. They started coming by my house unannounced; calling me all the time on the phone....basically harassing me, but I was too nice to do or say anything to them about it. Then I got moved to another fellowship. I met a guy who seemed to really like me and want to help me "be a better person". We started seeing each other and even then I was hesitant because he was so much more involved than I was, but I thought "it was the right thing to do". I've already written about the heartbreak and control during my wedding planning and ceremony so i won't go into that again, but suffice it to say that by the time we had been married 1 year I was effen miserable. Every minute of our day if we weren't at work we were expected to be doing something for TWI. Just finding time to go to the grocery store, fix dinner and wash clothes was difficult. The pressure to perform, be better, take classes, serve on class crews, give more money, witness to more people, pray with your prayer partner every morning..... It was overwhelming and it WAS NOT FUN! No, I don't really have many "fond memories". I was either too nice to stick up for myself and then too blinded to how miserable I really was and then married and too committed to give up that commitment for some stupid group of people. I spent 5 miserable years fighting for my marriage. I was not happy in the least with TWI or being in TWI, but I did love my husband very much and so it was worth it to me. Now I can stand with my head held high because I did everything I could to keep my commitment and I have no remorse or guilt about getting divorced and out of TWI. It's just not easy to pinpoint exactly why I stayed and kept coming back or how/when I realized that I was so miserable. I just know that in hindsight it was pretty much all the time. Sorry for such a long rant. I guess I'm in the "stupid" category and it smarts quite a bit. ;)-->

Once it's all over and done with and they are officially married, I think they've overcome enough together that they will be extremely happily married forever.

Personally, I find it hilarious that they've had so much trouble just getting the marriage details worked out. Just when it looks like everything is finally going to come off without a hitch the Pope goes and dies on them. LOL! :D-->

I remember craiggers yelling about people who leave, especially wc and ordained ministers, that if they left they would go "spiritually dark" - conscience seared with a hot iron, scales on their eyes and unable to read or understand Biblical truths, that they would forget what they knew, get posseessed, have no more protection from God and be contaminated with seven times the spirits they had before getting involved with TWI. Dogs returning to their vomit, he called 'em. He may not have called it spiritual death, but he sure as he11 painted that picture.

Didn't some guy in a wheelchair successfully sue the TWIts because they promised he would be healed if he gave enough dough to them?

I was at a transition period in my life and I liked having answers to questions I hadn't been able to get answers to - hanging out with people who were always happy and upbeat like I was - many times the teachings hit straight to my heart and whatever was going on in my life - they were also always upbeat and positive. THEN things changed....I felt stupid for not being an AC grad, for not going WOW, for not being "spiritual enough" - I felt intimidated if I was sick or had had a bad day and said so - I was coerced into going witnessing and to things I didn't want to go to - We were only able to teach from regurgitated teachings or magazine articles and could no longer teach to the needs in the group - I felt like I was being watched and monitored. I became a paranoid, helpless, immature, worthless member of God's only true household within the group: Outside the group I was an arrogant know-it-all Bible scholar confronting the world with the word.

Amazing that these "spiritual whores" have more respect in the world than any TWIt ever dreamed of having. What's pathetic is that they can't see it. These ungodly, evil seed people have also lived a much better tupos example of living the Word than TWI ever thought of living. Catcup, I absolutely love that! Thank you for posting it.

Raf, I believe that's part of what made it so incredible and had so much impact on people who believed it.....it SNOWED in the SUMMER because God wanted to prove to vee pee that HE would teach HIM so he could get rich! Some people posted here or on WayDale that they checked the weather charts for the time frame it was supposed to have happened and that there was absolutely no record of this amazing event. Someone posted a picture that had the view from his office window to the gas pumps and someone else said that snow flurries out of nowhere like that were not uncommon in that area. Mind you, I suffer from CRS really really bad, but that's the way I remember reading about it.

If he decided he wanted to leave he would be free to leave. That's why I think in my case it wouldn't have worked. My ex is adamant about not even considering that he is being lied to, manipulated and controlled. He would not have been tied up, yelled at or sleep deprived. I realize this is extremely different from what y'all experienced, however I DO know of some situations where it has worked among friends and acquaintances here in my neck of the woods. The difference being the people were either not in their particular cult for very long and/or they were young college age or fresh out of college and the fact that their family loved them enough to go to that much trouble probably played as much of a part in the success as hearing from former very high up members of said cult.

It sounds like something a group of guys would thoroughly enjoy playing. :D--> I'm smiling just picturing it. :o-->

Okay - what's "smile"?

*CRINGE*

I'm going to add "prop me up beside the jukebox when I die" to it....it IS priceless! :D-->

Nope. It can be down right fun....it can also be dirty....but that's even more fun! ;)-->

Awwwww! How Kewl! I'm so happy for both of you!! Definitely let us know where the party will be and where you're registered! You ARE going to register somewhere, aren't you? ;)--> Paw does NOT have a gift giving moratorium and I would be terribly upset if you deprived us of the pleasure of giving you gifts!

I will frequently refer to first hand testimonies in my posts, but I always try to remember who and where I got the information so that if there is a question or something is mis-stated it can be corrected. In fact, Linda Z corrected me once on a story about her and Moneyhands. :)--> The testimonies, too, have to come from people with established credibility if they are to be used to persuade someone "in" TWI to consider the evil of the group. I know my ex could hear about something bad that happened to someone and, if he didn't much care for or respect them, he would dismiss it - sometimes to the point of saying they deserved what they got.

Thanks, Johnny! :o--> You sure know how to make a girl's day! I'll put the check in the mail today.

Lifted, if I remember correctly, Steve charges between $5,000 - $8,000 per day plus expenses. And I think it's well worth the money when you're talking about getting a loved one back, emotionally healthy and out of the clutches of such destruction. We were willing to pay whatever he would have charged. Steve suggests meeting in a neutral place, but a private place, like a hotel room suite. It's not supposed to have a lot of people and it's to be a discussion, not a yelling match and both sides are free to speak. In fact, a lot of the meeting is asking questions and stimulating thought and doubts that way. It's not a yelling or arguing match. No one "throws" anything. :)--> In my case I had lined up a couple of pretty high up leadership that my ex respected a great deal to share what they really knew first hand. I also had someone here at GSpot who is a master at handling the doctrinal issues willing to help. The discussion would have just been 3 or 4 of us including Steve. I had absolutely no credibility with my ex and he considered me a complete and utter idiot, so anything doctrinal that would have come out of my mouth would have been shot down no matter how right I was. Steve's methods are pretty detailed in his book "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" and it's a process of helping people remember their "authentic self" and getting them to think about what they're learning and living in the cult atmosphere. The discussion session is really the final step with some people and with others, like my situation, it's the last resort because nothing else has worked. A few weeks before this was to happen he asked for a divorce. That's about the only reason we didn't follow through with trying it - that, and I don't know if I would have been able to get him to agree to a meeting. I seriously doubt if it would have worked, though. He's so adamant and thoroughly indoctrinated in TWIt logic. I think, though, that Steve's processes would work with other people who aren't like my ex.

In my area they said it was selfish to give cash because the hfc had to use his own hard earned money and time to go buy a money order so he could send it in to hq. If you're going to give (and you are going to give if you want to live) then you better do it on our terms! Why, oh why did it take so long to see the b.s.??? -->