Belle

Can we PLEASE re-rail this thread?? :o--> It was started specifically for us to HELP a few innie lurkers that I know. --> Your comments have been VERY HELPFUL. If you want to start a new thread to rehash the same arguments about rape and the lawsuits over and over again with OM, then please feel free to do so, but I'd really like to stay on the topic of the blackmail and threats that TWI uses to keep people involved because they are STILL doing this and they are turning up the heat on it to keep people from leaving. If that isn't a threat about what "costs" I'm going to have to pay for doing something that TWI teaches is wrong then I don't know what is. Again, what does TWI teach about those who AREN'T in the center of the will of God? That they are not protected and they open themselves and their families up to all kinds of destruction! (BTW, the MORE in all caps is Bob's doing, not mine. The bold and italics are mine, though) Same tactic used about people who STAY and how "blessed" they are vs people who have left. However, they never talk to people who have left so they don't know that they are so much more "blessed" than they ever dreamed possible while in TWI. They make these veiled threats and they work because they have taught already about how awful things happen to people who are "outside of God's will" so when they tell you that if you go against what they teach then you are "outside of God's will" it's threats by association. They can threaten without coming right out and doing so. Like Chas said so eloquently (btw, check your e-mail) the cost of staying has to become higher than the cost of leaving. In my mind, I had already done everything I could to save my husband and my marriage but the costs on my health - mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.... and the toll on my family and friendships became too much to bear and I HAD to do something about it. Since leaving I am so much healthier and sleep so much better and have such a better life! I wish I had left sooner!

Very poignant, Groucho! We were bribed into doing the things that TWIts wanted us to do. Bribed by the promises of eternal rewards which weren't theirs to give in the first place. THAT and IF we did them to earn rewards we were doing it for the wrong reason. I'm so ashamed....

This bears repeating

OM, the RC in my area said regarding BOTH RAPE lawsuits that the TWIts settled "because they were guilty and KNEW they would LOSE THEIR AS$E$ if it ever went to trial" That's all I'm going to say on this subject since it's already been beaten to death with you. REGARDING TWIts threats about leaving and the horrible consequences someone would face.... These excerpts from the e-mail Moneyhands sent to me about debt contain the same subtle threats, only, I think they aren't being as subtle anymore. They may be smiling, but I think they are more bold in their proclamations that if you are born again then you are absolutely obligated to stay with "the ministry that taught you the word" If that isn't a threat about what "costs" I'm going to have to pay for doing something that TWI teaches is wrong then I don't know what is. Again, what does TWI teach about those who AREN'T in the center of the will of God? That they are not protected and they open themselves and their families up to all kinds of destruction! (BTW, the MORE in all caps is Bob's doing, not mine. The bold and italics are mine, though) Same tactic used about people who STAY and how "blessed" they are vs people who have left. However, they never talk to people who have left so they don't know that they are so much more "blessed" than they ever dreamed possible while in TWI. They make these veiled threats and they work because they have taught already about how awful things happen to people who are "outside of God's will" so when they tell you that if you go against what they teach then you are "outside of God's will" it's threats by association. They can threaten without coming right out and doing so. Like Chas said so eloquently (btw, check your e-mail) the cost of staying has to become higher than the cost of leaving. In my mind, I had already done everything I could to save my husband and my marriage but the costs on my health - mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.... and the toll on my family and friendships became too much to bear and I HAD to do something about it. Since leaving I am so much healthier and sleep so much better and have such a better life! I wish I had left sooner!

You know, LCM came up with some real devilish theories about many things to try to keep people from leaving. I left in 86 and just fellowshipped with God and re-set my spiritual compass. Guess what? Ask the question and Jesus Christ will tell you more than likely. He does expect you to do your homework, but after that.... When you did Romans 10:9, whom do you think was present. Ever wonder? God, who has perfect foreknowledge (despite some idiots saying to the contrary), knew when you would make the confession. And Jesus Christ was the one in physical person that you made the confession of Lordship to. Why wouldn't he? He was after all the one you were swearing allegiance to, DUH..... Then we in TWI reneged on that oath and accepted a different lord like wierwille and lcm. Another very sobering reality was put to me by the Lord himself one day: "I will not be giving out rewards at the bema for how much doctrine you know. The rewards will be for the good works you did in my name representing me". Jesus Christ Some of the things I was shown directly contradicted what I was taught in TWI. The verse that comes to mind is that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. A gift is not taken back, and rewards earned are not taken back. So rewards will never be lost, because as another verse say: we lay up for ourselves a treasure in heaven where moth, nor rust, nor may I add LCM or TWI may take away... And the search for knowledge, the research junkie syndrome is all out of whack with reality. Why do we study holy writ? This is a question that has perplexed many people. The scriptures state to study to show yourself approved unto God and so forth. The companion verse that explains why is: Jesus Christ, a man approved by God by signs, miracles and wonders... The study part of our life is to learn what we need to know to carry out the above in our walk in the exercising of the ministry of reconciliation we were given, period. And the ministry of reconcilliation is not running PFAL, Worped, Momentus or any other class. It is in the exercise of power and representing Christ. Most of His time was doing, not teaching. His actions were the lesson... Also, which ministry you stand with is your choice. Choosing to be in a ministry where you can represent Jesus Christ, and operate your ministry of reconciliation, as an ambassador for Christ is why you choose where you hang your hat. If there are no opportunities to do our Lord's work, you move on. Very simple.. For all of you who still follow a man instead of the man Jesus Christ, an on your knees (Not a TWI mental ascent) act of repentance is necessary for such a grievous offence of idolatry. Only then can you move on once again with the things of God. Idolatry is after all a very grievous offence, and not to be taken lightly. There's alittle MORE to the story folks..not Only did LCM say that we that left TWI would loose our rewards BUT BUT also that those that were still in SHOULD PRAY FOR US TO DIE, Because the longer we lived outside of TWI the more rewards we would loose and if we were to DIE right then and there we would still have some rewards left in the bag.. I wonder just how many Loy Boy has lost by now..Should we pray for him to DIE soon. I don't think so but I know that there are some that would love to just see him Disapear for along time...but I'ld rathere see him FACE his victums and reap the results of his own Stupid Actions.. Alright I'll calm down now...

I left TWI after 23.5 years on January 11, 1996. One of the statements LCM made on a STS tape that helped me reach this decision was that he did not consider the people who had left the Way his brothers and sisters in Christ. The verse that came to mind was that Jesus Christ is not ashamed to call us his brethren (and I was still IN then!) ... if Jesus Christ isn't ashamed to call people who left TWI his brothers, then who is LCM to set himself above Jesus Christ? Oh, yeah, I forgot ... the MOGFODAT ... I remember when I was in residence in the 14th Corps. Hearing some teaching on the crowns and the rewards from different teachers. Teaching - That we can't really know what what we will be rewarded for and what will cause the lost. The bottom line was if you just live your life (now theres a concept) and let God take care of the rewarding as He sees fit. VPW used to say to that we will be surprised at the little things we will be rewarded for. Dont know that it is true, havent stood at the bema yet, but Imma gona, and I will find out at that time. I don't wanat to be standing at the bema explaing my self. I'd ranther be reciving.

Quote from kratos: ..."it is their concept that God will not forget your works and accompanying rewards on the basis that you continue..." Okay, let's say I *CONTINUE* to serve with them until I'm seventy (70) years old .......and being old and feeble, I cannot continue to make it to all of their meetings, functions, etc. Then, this green-to-the-bone corps guy who is new to the area tells me that he's put me on the m&a list because I'm no longer faithful to twi. According to *their* definition of continue ..........I fail and would lose my eternal rewards. Sheeeesh. I'm so thankful that my God is much bigger than their little pea brains. Their concept is seriously flawed. Doesn't it state implicity in the Word of God that "ye are saved by grace and not of works it is the gift of God"? Or is this some kind of "new light" he came up with? Scratching my head in puzzlement.....

Another repost. I don't have the authors, so if it's you, please feel free to speak up. ;)--> *********** Another lie perpetuated by LCM and twi to intimidate the trapped into getting comfortable with their demise. The "present truth" was heralded once again and this section of scripture was both a comfort to those struggling to rationalize staying in as well as a somber warning of additional consequences if you would leave. Lets look at it: Hebrews6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Now...for you innies as well as we who have truly been delivered...just look at a the hooks that have been placed in you...the sheer intimidation...the ego... and the unmitigated gall to presume to teach you that if you leave twi that God Almighty will take away your eternal rewards. Twi teaches and IT HAS NOT BEEN RETRACTED as they proudly teach this....that it is their concept that God will not forget your works and accompanying rewards on the basis that you continue...ie DO Minister (present active tense) and do so with TWI!!!!! WOW! Gimme a freeeeeeking break! TWI teaches that God WILL forget unless you DO minister with TWI! Stand with TWI innies and bear your shame! Believe it folks...they teach that to their followers...read it and weep innies...rejoicing for those of us who have escaped this devilish selfserving organization. Yes. I was present when LCM said all the previous leaders who had left TWI had lost their rewards.....He said only the new birth was permenant and then he intimated it was permenant by mercy only and there was no grace involved, as if he should be God and change how things were done.

Mark Sanguinetti Knows the Waitress's name (4/10/01 1:11:36 am) What do you say to a Pharisaical Nazi? Great job GreenEggs! It sounds like you put that Pharisaical Nazi in his place. In addition to your bold words inspired by God, I might have told him that "your beloved ministry is going to get smaller and smaller as long as there are men like you to lead it." It might have started a riot, but I don't think I would have been able to resist. I sure hope he didn't have bad breath. Now that would have been real serious. Have Fun. Enjoy life. Your Brother, Mark Ozbird Likes the Lunch Menu (4/10/01 2:47:05 am) Interesting you should say that Green Eggs Here is word for word the letter sent to me by the same leader not long after I left in 1998. "I have been informed that you have called Ray and have been bad mouthing me. It is sad to especially see you Jackie sink so disgustingly low. The Word does say that when someone rejects God that thye will end up with a reprobate mind. it's amazing how quickly your mind has become unraveled. You are a true coward and filled to capacity with the spirit of fear. It's real brave talking behind someone's back. You cannot deny all your lies and all you are trying to do is justify your own sick lifestyle. If you want a fight I have a lot of information that would do you more damage than you could ever imagine. I even have you on tape, so I suggest that you keep your big loud mouth shut. You better think twice before you take me on and talk behind my back. You are messing with the wrong person. I'm sick of people like you!!! I'm not a door mat for your sick mind. I suggest you do what you said you were going to do, go back to Australia to your mummy and daddy! Did Paul really think that I was stupid enough to believe that he was moving to Australia? You were not that hard to track down. If you back off, you will never hear from me again, but if you want a fight I will take YOU on at any cost. Name Witheld PS I do not want a response, stay away from me physically and verbally. I'm holding a copy of this letter on file in case you try to misuse it." -------------- Incidentally, the only bad mouthing I had done about him was to speak of the confrontation I had with him the day I left the ministry. Similar to Green Eggs experience. Talk about point one finger at someone and point three back at yourself!!! J.Witt aka Ozbird catcup Loves the Grits (4/10/01 6:00:32 am) Re: Interesting you should say that Green Eggs I think it's terrific you guys finally getting the balls to stand up to your leadership and leave. It must really freak them out to actually have people standing up to them. TWI is used to being able to separate and isolate those who resist their will. Before the internet, people were terribly isolated and left with not much of a support network. Take a deep breath.... It's a NEW DAY... blue rock Likes the Lunch Menu (4/10/01 6:31:00 am) F.E.A.R Interesting thread. I think it's important for those innies coming around the cafe to know that getting up the courage to leave is the hardest part. At least it was for me. Once I was on the phone with my TC telling him what I really thought of the way, I felt a tremendous burden lifted. I've felt more free in the past 6 months than the whole 16 years I spent in TWI. Ozbird, I don't know what you said, but I'm sure there was a better way for that guy to handle the situation. I don't remember being taught to treat people that way in the corps

dabobbada Polishes the silverware (4/9/01 8:58:08 pm) Re: F.E.A.R Good show, old boy! I wish I could have been there to see it. Making the decision not only gave you peace but the strength to withstand the tyranny of the devils onslaught. The hissing was definitely from the "spirit" within. I rejoice with you in your newfound freedom. May God fill your days with the unspeakable riches of His love and grace. Bobba Dabobbada Way II much fun for one man, aka; Bob Hansen Zixar Magi in training (4/9/01 8:58:44 pm) Re: Congrats!!!!! Well, you KNOW who the Word equates with a "roaring lion"... Welcome back to a life of God's Grace instead of Way-law! God Bless! Zixar

outandabout Likes juice squeezed not shaken (4/9/01 8:43:33 pm) Re: F.E.A.R Amen & Amen. I remember when I left how I was experiencing for the first time in years how to actually think my own thoughts, since I was always taught that all thoughts that didn't line up with what LEADERSHIP said were devilish. Shortly after I had made my decision to leave for good, I was at work "setting up" a meeting room. All they wanted was for me to make sure the table was clean and that there were enough chairs. I remember thinking, "Wow, it sure is nice to feel like I'm not going to be yelled at any minute." Lots of epiphanies like that. I can say this: after leaving I never for one minute regretted getting out. All I ever felt was relief, and some anger. I have never missed TWI, not ever. There's nothing to miss. Zshot Knows the Waitress's name (4/9/01 8:53:18 pm) Congrats!!!!! Congrats!!!!! Green eggs and Ham, May you find great joy in your dicision. You may soon discover the people who truly love and care for you and those who may have just gone through the motions. God has blessed us with soooo many things. Go out and enjoy!! Enjoy some quality family time. Take up a hobby or a sport. You will soon discover how much time TWI took from you. Enjoy your new freedom!!!!

Repost from WayDale or GSpot. I thought it was appropriate given the thread on leaving. Please note that there is a letter from leadership who is STILL IN CHARGE in this thread. Things have NOT changed, they just don't put things in writing anymore. ******************* F.E.A.R Only a week out of leaving TWI and I am amazed at how clearly I can think and that more and more I am feeling peaceful. Peaceful! Now that’s a concept that has been foreign for too long. I am even enjoyng reading the Word again! We were always taught that fear = False Evidence Appearing Real. This can be true, but especially within the walls of TWI. Everything I did was based on fear. I became so encased with fear that I could no longer see joy in my life, and I could no longer manifest God’s love to people because I was bound and tormented by fear. The worst part about it, was that everyone else had fear too, but we all denied it. Fear of consequence. Fear of repercussions. Fear of falling short. Fear of reproof. Fear of not being pleasing unto God. And the list goes on. When my wife and I were deciding to leave, there would be times when I could do nothing but sit trembling like a terrified animal. To get past that final barrier to decide to leave was the HARDEST thing I have ever done. The day finally arrives and we start to act on our decision, and something very strange happened. Fear started to disappear. We tell the people we are living with that we are leaving, and then leadership is contacted. The country coordinator comes around and tries to get into my face, literally! My wife completely ignores the coordinator and calmly walks into our bedroom so as not to have to listen to his B..... I look directly into his eyes (while he tries to intimidate me by having his face so close his nose is touching mine and screaming at me) and I say “You say there is freedom of choice? Then let us exercise our God given liberty and leave this work based pharisaic organization with some dignity!!”. Then we carried on packing while the country coordinator fumes and storms off with nothing else to say except a hiss. (that’s right! He hissed at me. Kind of reminds me of something in the Word about Vipers and religious leaders??!!) My point? Just this – if any off you are still in and are trying to work up the courage to leave, do it! Very quickly you will find that all the fear that has been pushed down your throat is false. They have no more control over you than you let them have. Cast your cares upon God, and believe that He will direct your steps. You will have the right words to say at the right time to back down your enemy, and you will see God work to protect your family and yourself. Your Father wants you set free, and He will make a way. Trust Him.

But who's on first? -->

Second James, funny, isn't it, how we would take that man's word (and the word of his minions) over anyone else, even family members we had always respected and trusted? I wonder sometimes where my brain was. I think it's someplace dark and smelly.

I remember a dude in my area getting M&A and one of the many reasons was because he never got rid of his D&D stuff after being told to burn it. I was never into D&D but I didn't understand how a game could be the source of so much evil and the possibility of possession for someone.

Yeah, def59! Excellent news!!!

Remember RFR talking about John Reyn*lds and why he was stepping down as Treasurer of the BOD? I'll have to look for my notes, but she was basically saying that he had become sick because he wasn't strong spiritually and certainly not strong enough in his believing to be healed. Weakness like that can not be tolerated on the almighty BOD. Donna and Rosie are still running the show, folks. They are STILL promoting this doctrine and people are STILL afraid of leaving. Brainwashed? Manipulated? Coerced? Blackmailed? Whatever you want to call it, the fear of leaving TWI because of the threat of consequences in the bill of goods they have sold TWIts is very real. It's real easy to stand on the outside and say: "You have a choice." "You're an adult; you can always just choose to leave." "No one is making you stay." "What's gonna happen if you leave? Are they gonna stalk you? Get real!" Real easy to judge people when you feel strong and vindicated. Real easy to judge people when you may not have experienced the same treatment, or have since justified it in your lives. Real easy to sit back and armchair quarterback, ain't it? The fear of leaving was very real for many of us. Judge all you want, but it is preventing you from understanding and empathizing with where we came from and where CURRENT INNIES IN THE SAME SITUATION are having to deal with this VERY REAL dilemma. Because of that you are useless to those who are lurking and trying to find hope and ways to deal with changing their Waybrain fear of leaving and fear of losing their families. The fear of losing my family (which I did). The fear of being in a terrible car crash or something and being handicapped for life. The fear of getting cancer or some other life threatening disease. The fear of disappointing God and having my whole life fall apart. The fear of losing everyone and everything near and dear to me. The fear of being alone and unloveable. I could go on and on, but I hope you understand that regardless of what you think and how stupid you may think I am and how free I was to leave, in my mind, I was in no way free to leave much less disagree with anything TWI taught. These same fears are STILL BEING TAUGHT!! I want to help a few friends of mine who want out but with their entire families in tact. Telling them they are stupid and just imagining the the threats TWI are teaching veiled in scriptures about staying with the ministry that taught you the word and that your life is not your own and that there's gnashing of teeth outside the protected walls of zion (TWI) - telling them they are imagining them and treating them like they are stupid or gullible doesn't help anyone. They already realize it. They just want to know how to help the rest of their family see it.

OM, again, you are showing your inability to see and understand the intense manipulation and perversion that goes on in TWI even to this day! There are many people who are still "in" because, like I did for five years, they are fighting for their family because they know what TWI does to families when someone wants to leave. This is something you know nothing about nor can you comprehend it because of your cold TWI-1 loving heart. LCM may be gone, but his doctrines, teachings and threats are still in full force! I know. I can't tell you how I know, but I know they are still teaching these things.

I was thinking this week-end about how much nicer life is now that I'm TWIt free! :D--> I remember so many times lcm teaching that if you left the household that God wouldn't and couldn't protect you anymore (and we all know what THAT entails). You'd go "spiritually dark": forget everything you had learned: lose all rewards at the bema: be of no further use or value to God: blah, blah, blah.... Would that qualify as spiritual blackmail? I know that they have not changed their position on this because they have told people in my area that I am "dead to them" and that I have gone back to my pernicious ways and that it's only by God's grace that I'm still alive. Do you think that might make some people scared to leave? Sounds stoopid from the outside, doesn't it? Remember how scary it was when we were on the inside looking out? I tried so hard for my ex to see that people outside TWI were living happy, healthy, normal lives and even MORE ABUNDANT lives, including my parents! He had the nerve to say that we couldn't REALLY say my parents were born again because we never heard them speak in tongues. (They're freakin' Southern Baptists, for Pete's sake!! They'll NEVER speak in tongues!!) --> If you were in my position, what would you have said?

Backatcha, HCW! :)--> I transcripted the teaching as best I could and have it saved somewhere. I think it's at work, though. I'll look for it next week. A few innies have asked me to post it, too. Seems my area isn't the only one where this information wasn't shared unless they thought it absolutely necessary. I think it's because they know it's b.s. and any intelligent TWIt can see through it.

YIPPEEEE!! Wonderful News!! :D--> I'm definitely looking forward to seeing pictures!!

Wow! You sure know your stuff, don't you, Bob Eastwood? ;)--> While I don't doubt the possibility of the snowstorm in September, I seriously doubt the source of the story. He even plagarized the calling that God would teach him the word, why wouldn't he embellish it and make it more dramatic? I just find it hard to believe anything that came out of that man's moouth.

JustLoafing, I wasn't thinking about beer! I was trying to figure out how to do that invisible or crawl through the ground thing. ;)--> WG - Check your Private Topics If that don't make you laugh I don't know what will! :D-->

Awwwww, WG, Don't Cry!! :(--> I used to walk my dog in the neighborhood at night after dinner and in Florida nearly everyone has RV's and they are always parked in front of the house, to the side of the house or in the driveway. It's no biggie - you see them all the time.... I wear my walkman and my dog was so good I never used a leash with him. He'd run ahead and sniff and hang out till I got past him then run ahead again.... I would sing at the top of my lungs with my walkman {i](I can't sing for **** - can't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid on it)[/i]. Note: Belle already has a loud voice without needing to try to be loud ;)--> Edie Brickell, "What I Am is What I Am" was playing on my walkman and I LOVED the song, but hadn't yet learned all the words to it so I mumbled through the parts I didn't know. Singing my heart out walking down the street, right past an RV in someone's front yard....I glance over just as I'm at the door to the RV and there is a huge group of people in there playing cards and visiting...(HUGE group of people all laughing their heads off at me). I quit singing as soon as I saw them but it was already too late - they had been listening to me walking all the way down the street. To make matters worse it was a cul de sac, so I had to pass them AGAIN! AND my dog found something very interesting to smell in their yard and I couldn't get his attention that I was ready to leave the street! Total humiliation! :o--> Oh, and I have more. Just give me time, I'll have you feeling better in no time!