Belle

Napkinlady, If I remember correctly they start with your premise and definition and then quickly get so far away from that definition that you can't even track with him and by the time he's done you've already forgotten what the definition was and are so confused that the typical TWIt just keeps it in the "I don't get it, but it's what they say" department.

***************************************** Bob Moneyhands’s response to reading the above e-mail: -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in 1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters again. Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested and universally accepted. What we have taught is that the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ needs to be in a position of strength. Debt, (and your dad's point about MISMANAGEMENT OF DEBT being the main concern is well taken), is something that is universally accepted by most U.S. citizens. These people do not have the background and understanding that the district president of a bank has. That's why you have to ask questions. (You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages? The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!) You are asking questions now and your loving dad is teaching you what he knows now! And that is good. You realize his abilities and he realizes your desire to make educated, informed decisions. The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a debt. Regardless of what decision you make regarding a mortgage, it is clear that you are going to be an informed, confident consumer and that you will be able to count the entire cost, both spiritually and financially. Honestly, I have been thinking about this topic for over a year. I have heard equally convincing arguments from both sides--the financial advice being "enter into mortgage, it's smart," to the biblical advice being "debt in all forms is wrong." Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before entering into a mortgage. There are others who did not enter into a mortgage because Craig "said" mortgages were wrong. They feel they cannot wait any longer, and they must buy now. Freedom of will is not the issue; that's a given. The best choice is the issue for me. I want to know what the Word says. I am thankful Rev. Rivenbark has assigned this project to biblically and financially knowledgeable men and women to examine and settle so that we can make the best decisions possible. I am thankful for those who patiently work the information on their own and anticipate the decision from Headquarters. Isn't it great to have the best in both "worlds"? Your dad's insight and your Father's! Love, Bob ********************************* quote: (You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages? The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!) Actually, Bob, I was asking questions because everything coming out of the mouth of TWIts contradicted what my Daddy taught me. Smile (insert an imitation of one of your sarcastic smirks here) I also, did NOT ignore my Daddy and he’ll tell you so. That’s the reason I didn’t have money problems before getting involved with your little cult. I had financed a car and WISH I had financed a house prior to becoming involved. My Daddy taught that those are considered good management of my money providing I can easily make my payments each month and I am not living beyond my means. TWI doesn’t teach that, they keep people in bondage, but you do a very good job of using the tactics mentioned in the “Manipulative People” thread.

My father’s Response after I forwarded the above e-mail from Bob Moneyhands to him with a bit of venting: Hi!! Well, I've seen debt get folks in big trouble... so, generally being very careful with it is a good idea! Home ownership is a little different, in that you have the double whammy of tax deduction and building wealth. I vote for that!! ... not for me to be "Biblical" in the mortgage debt issue! But, the entire banking industry from the beginnings of commerce in the world is predicated on those having wealth (deposits) keeping that wealth in one spot (a bank) for safe keeping and earnings (interest earned), and the bank knowing those with deposits do not want all their wealth at one time can then "loan" the other's wealth to those needing "wealth" ... hence, loans. We "buy" funds from folks, and "sell" to others... a form of commerce, just like going to the grocery store. Sorry, I don't buy into the notion that debt, in and of itself, is bad. Mismanagement of debt is bad. If all felt that debt is bad, there would be no banking industry! We "loan" money lots of different ways... besides "people to people" ...anytime someone, or something, needs funds TODAY for something, but can only pay for it with TOMORROW's money - it's a debt. For instance, the US Government sells US Treasury Securities to do it's important day-to-day work... like building highways, buying military equipment, building government office buildings, etc. That sort of borrowing is in the papers often - it's called the National Debt !! (ever hear Gore or Bush talk about that?) .... The State of Florida, or the City of Winter Springs create debt to do things government should do for its constituencies - again, to build highways, to build schools ...hey, to buy police cars. The source of repayment is taxes... what we all pay. Sometime those kinds of debt are called Bonds... or, Indenture Agreements... not always called flat-out loans... but, that is really what they are. Here's a better question... ask someone if The Way has ever borrowed any money for that Ohio facility... by the pictures that is a very nice place! My guess... if not now, at some time in the past the organization has borrowed money for that facility. The very question to me, again, is Managing Debt... not that debt itself is bad. Beyond your tithe your funds are yours to manage... some do that better than others. (after all, if it were not for "money", how would we manage our lives? ... by bartering... not very efficient...). Remember,if you purchase something that will last for, and have value after 30 years, then it is appropriate to pay for it over that same 30 years. The premise of home mortgages... Trying to get an owner to do the "self financing" is not a bad deal...sort of a "rent to own" theory. Seems that should pass muster. If the amount of monthly payment is roughly the same as true rent, and the "rent to own" idea positively affects the parishioner - then that seems to be a good thing. Anyway, throw more questions my way.... Love, Dad

My notes and comments posted on the board based on some research I’ve been doing on manipulation: Rationalization – “we’re doing the same thing your dad is doing, but we’re going to stick to the Bible, not plain common sense” Playing the Servant Role –this tactic cloaks their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, they conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. The only master he serves is his own ambition.. Diversion – “change from the definition of debt to someone who has done what TWI wants people to do” Shaming - an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance. “They are in a position of strength” and subtly implying that someone who doesn’t pay cash is not in a position of strength. Rhetorical comments and subtle sarcasm. Imagine how much more effective this tactic would be in person. Seduction- charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. There’s something else here, I just can’t put my finger on it. And I mean besides the fact that he just admitted that he doesn’t understand economics, so how the he11 can he say something is wrong or not if he doesn’t understand it? Seduction- Again. And, not being all that familiar with my dad, he possibly didn’t realize my dad was being semi-sarcastic when he stated that he may not be an “authority” on the Bible, but that he could definitely see where he didn’t think God would consider a mortgage evil and then why from his “authoritative” position of “worldly” knowledge. My Daddy also commented that he was surprised that TWI was even trying to tell people what to do with their money. See anything I missed? This was very perturbing at the time, but I couldn’t put my finger on why I was so p1ssed nor how to respond. **************

***************************************** Bob Moneyhands was, at the time, the Branch, Limb and Region Coordinator of Florida and Alabama (he may have still had oversight of Georgia too at the time but I can’t remember) I sent my father’s e-mail to Bob and this is his reply: Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too I am thankful for your dad's wisdom and insight. What he expresses is what our biblical men are working on.... We want to firmly establish a biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory, that a mortgage is not debt. By the way, we have knowledge of a couple in AL that has been saving as much as they possibly can over the last several years with the intent of buying a house. They have been keeping track of foreclosures and finally found a home that they like and could afford for CASH! It was a home worth in the neighborhood of $75-100,000 and they purchased it for $30,000. They have a minimum of immediate "fix up" to do. They are thrilled that they fought to buy a home they could "afford" with cash. Now they are in a position of strength and they, of course, don't understand why anyone would pay the "going cost" for a home over a 30-year period (the pretty standard length of current mortgages). I respect the knowledge your dad evidences in his communication. I understand it (I was a business major for two years). I understand assets and liabilities, and income and expenses. But the reason I switched to math rather than continuing in business was that I could not understand economics. It is based on the theory of supply and demand, which fluctuate with trends, etc. Mathematics is based on an unchanging standard. When the Word of God became evident to me, it too, was unchanging. (There are some biblical things that I am still working to understand, but I am patient, because I know that God knows the answers and if I stay faithful, He will fill me.) I am passing on your dad's communication to The Way of the U.S.A. so those working the Word on the subject have this input to consider. I believe it is consistent with what we have received in the past, but it is put in simple, clear, and definite terms. It is the best I have seen so far. I appreciate his honesty to qualify his limited biblical knowledge, yet to proclaim his authority from his background and career. I appreciate his clarifying that beyond the tithe, it is up to the disciplined ones to determine what to do with their income. (I would add that we do with our income what is STILL consistent with the Word and will of God, rather than just any old thing! Wisdom versus frivolity is best whether coming from a biblical or secular position, and your dad makes that very clear.) That's all I have for now. What are you all thinking regarding your dad's input? Thank you for sharing it with me. I thank God for your dad. He has been a friend of ours and a friend to our ministry. His willingness to work with you rather than to be critical is so refreshingly positive. Love, Bob P. S. It is my impression you are endeavoring to be the best possible stewards over that which you have responsibility and that you want to act with God's blessing on your life. (So do I!) I think it is great you are getting the best education you can. Take advantage of all of the resources you have! Then your decisions are based on solid, clear standards with which you believe you can live...and serve others, too. ***************

To make this easier for the person who requested it I am re-posting the e-mails in order: My Daddy has been in banking since he was in college. He’s been District President over banks in several states for many, many years. When the debt policy was being enforced with full strength and people were being told to sell their homes, put on probation and labeled Mark & Avoid for not doing so, I asked my dad how we could pay cash for a house since The Way International (TWI) leadership was requiring it but not providing the practical “how to” instruction. Daddy responded back saying: Not much way to do home purchases without debt... it seems... so sorry! BUT: a couple of angles... 1. It is possible to find someone who would "self finance" the purchase...meaning they would let you pay them and at the end of some term it would belong to you. Of course, it is financing, but between individuals, which means the terms could be more favorable. In the Orlando area I would assume there are numbers of folks who would be agreeable to such arrangements. It happens here-that I am aware- at least half-dozen or dozen times a year. It could be wealthy people who own property and prefer the monthly payment plus interest instead of putting money into CDs or the stock market. Oftentimes they can get a better return, too. Or, someone who inherited property and just don't want to sell in the regular real estate market and pay commissions, etc. They don't need the property but don't want to "cash out" right now. 2. The "main most" reason for purchasing homes in the USA is that the interest paid is tax deductible...where it is not for other personal debt. That makes home purchasing more important in tax planning. The question becomes, do you want to pay taxes to the government, or legally avoid that and build your own net worth - because you are paying for something you can own. Plus, when you have that mortgage tax deduction, then it makes other deductions get to IRS's hurdles for counting on the tax return...further legally aiding the individual household... i.e. monetary gifts to The Way would be tax deductible gifts (or, to Mississippi State University, United Way, Red Cross, Boy Scouts, etc....) The Main Issue is: do you want to pay money unnecessarily to the government, or do something that benefits you personally and creates wealth for you? Here's a "for instance": Let's assume your rent is $850/month. What that gets you is a place to live in someone else's property. Nothing more. Now, what if you were paying a mortgage payment of $850/month? ... What would $850/month "buy"? .... A reasonable interest rate right now would be 7. 25% for a regular 30 year mortgage. So, $850/mo, for 30 years, at 7.25% ... would finance a purchase of $124,600. In other words, a payment of $850/mo for 30 years would pay a loan of $124,600 to zero. Interest the first year would be slightly less than $9000. If you are paying taxes in the 30% tax bracket that means you've just reduced your "tax bill" by about $2700 (30% X $9000)... more bluntly... if you are currently getting a tax refund, then take that amount and add $2700 to it. You can stand that, can't you? Can't do that if you rent. Two raps on home mortgages.... both of which I think are bogus in this day-and-time. a.) over a 30 year period you will pay total interest on the $124,600 borrowed of $181,400. But, the interest has been tax deductible over that time. If this bothers you a lot, invest the tax savings over that time and see what IT is worth in the 30 years! But, mainly, that argument is so much baloney... AT LEAST at the end of the 30 years you own something. .... by renting, you keep putting money in the pocket of the person owning the house. ...and you own nothing. b.) what if the property declines in value and I have to take a loss when I sell? That could happen, and has in the recent past in different parts of the USA. But, I wouldn't count on that happening in the Orlando area anytime soon...period! Look at little ole Starkville: We paid $189,000 for our house in 1991. Today we owe about $109,000, and our house would sell tomorrow for at least $310,000... and we've had the tax deduction all along! So, to me the case for home ownership is a no-brainer. There are bunches of good mortgage programs out there - especially for "first time" home owners... little or no downpayment, low closing costs, etc. .... the average length of time a particular home mortgage is outstanding, by the way, is 7 or 8 years. So, people don't get a loan and live in the same house forever... they move. Surprise!! So, if the values are going up, it gives you an opportunity to "tap into" that gain at some interval...you know, your Mom and I have owned 3 houses in little ole Starkville!! Well, hope this is of some value... let me know if you have other questions... Love, Dad

Good for you, Ham!! Patcherself on the back; you deserve it! I've "pressed the issue" on a couple of occasions when it appeared the person didn't really want me to ask such questions and then tried to give me "non-answers". I asserted my right to ask and my right to get answers. It does feel good! :D--> Way to go!!

Bringing this to the top by request. :D--> --> Hi Bob!

railroader, do you have any more information on this? I know for sure of some mail meddling.

Gotta sting for sure, Ham! Remember that a few years ago they cleaned out their library and gave free copies of the PFAL book to anyone and everyone who wanted them. Not only are they not publishing anything PFAL related, they gave away what they did have.

LOL! They probably tried!!

Ain't that the truth! I'd say a day late and a dollar short, but they've stolen enough dollars to have plenty to spare....apparently they're spreading them around the legal community like candy.

Which strikes as being the same situation with the New Testament when mixed with the Old, as the past 2,000 years of Christian history attests. Excellent post, Oak. And Bob - your illustration of the 3 year old girl in the "stoning pit" was most profound. A savage, "bloodthirsty Yahweh" indeed. Danny I agree! TWI was a master at "researching" those atrocities so to justify their atrocities. That's where the "women belong to the king" line of b.s. came from, too. Lego Judges The whole book of Judges is nothing but massacres:

Since they're so fond of OT laws, maybe they'll find some scripture to justify hiring "Guido" to "take care of things" that the lawyers can't. Your abundant sharing at work, folks! They'll probably be looking HERE for ideas. edited to add the link.

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

Send up a signal I'll throw you a line That stained-glass curtain you're hiding behind Never lets in the sun

I'll keep you by my side with my superhuman might? Kryptonite by: 3 Doors Down How could I NOT know a band with ties to Mississipp?? :D-->

Would those "someone"s be moved out of the country to avoid trouble?

I laughed out loud at some of these. I hope y'all don't mind me posting them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A little girl, dressed in her Sunday best, was running as fast as she could, trying not to be late for Bible class. As she ran she prayed, "Dear Lord, please don't let me be late! Dear Lord, please don't let me be late!" While she was running and praying, she tripped on a curb and fell, getting her clothes dirty and tearing her dress. She got up, brushed herself off, and started running again. As she ran she once again began to pray, "Dear Lord, please don't let me be late...But please don't shove me either!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Three boys are in the schoolyard bragging about their fathers. The first boy says, "My Dad scribbles a few words on a piece of paper, he calls it a poem, they give him $50." The second boy says, "That's nothing. My Dad scribbles a few words on a piece of paper, he calls it a song, and they give him $100." The third boy says, "I got you both beat. My Dad scribbles a few words on a piece of paper, he calls it a sermon. And it takes eight people to collect all the money!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ An elderly woman died last month. Having never married, she requested no male pallbearers. In her handwritten instructions for her memorial service, she wrote, "They wouldn't take me out while I was alive, I don't want them to take me out when I'm dead. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A police recruit was asked during the exam, "What would you do if you had to arrest your own mother?" He said, "Call for backup." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Sunday school teacher asked her class why Joseph and Mary took Jesus with them to Jerusalem. A small child replied: "They couldn't get a baby sitter." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Sunday school teacher was discussing the Ten Commandments with her five and six year olds. After explaining the commandment to "honor thy father and thy mother," she asked "Is there a commandment that teaches us how to treat our brothers and sisters?" Without missing a beat one little boy answered, "Thou shall not kill." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At Sunday school they were teaching how God created everything, including human beings. Little Johnny seemed especially intent when they told him how Eve was created out of one of Adam's ribs. Later in the week his mother noticed him lying down as though he were ill, and said, "Johnny, what is the matter?" Little Johnny responded, "I have pain in my side. I think I'm going to have a wife." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Two boys were walking home from Sunday school after hearing a strong preaching on the devil. One said to the other, "What do you think about all this Satan stuff?" The other boy replied, "Well, you know how Santa Claus turned out. It's probably just your dad.

Garth, they're in the USA and looking for a place outside the Bible Belt that has population 250K or larger where the church populations are stagnant. They got their start and idea from a mission trip to Honduras, but plan to stay in the US from what I read on the site. I may have mis-understood, but that's what it looks like to me. They do look alive, young, healthy, vibrant and they sound extremely enthusiastic on their website. Nothing like TWI's. ;)-->

If you could create (just HAD to use that word) the perfect album, what songs would be on it? I know we have different favorites depending on our mood, but today, if you could create an album what would it sound like? Here's mine and I DO have the CD with these songs on it: Some Kind of Wonderful - Grand Funk Railroad The Letter - Box Tops Tulsa Time - Eric Clapton Don't Ask Me No Questions - BB King Soul Man - Sam & Dave Dirty Water - The Standells Listen to the Music - Doobie Brothers Hey Hey (Indians Coming) - Wild Tchoupitoulas In the Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett I've Always Been Crazy - Waylon Jennings Let's Make a Better World - Dr John Baby, I Love You - Aretha Franklin Up on Cripple Creek - The Band Dixie Chicken - Little Feat Ain't Too Proud to Beg - Temptations Louisiana Saturday Night - Mel McDaniel Honkly Tonk Women - Rolling Stones Down in the Valley - Otis Redding Against the Wind - Bob Seager Have You Ever Seen the Rain - CCR Family Tradition - Hank Williams Jr Best of Me - Delbert McLinton

LOL! I hear ya, CW! I think I've gone from seeing devil spirits in everything to seeing TWI in everything....wait...that's the same thing, isn't it???

David, pat yourself on the back for going as long as you did! Pick yourself back up and keep smiling! What y'all are doing is no small feat! You're all doing great!! I'll head down to the prayer forum. The stress doesn't make it any easier, does it?? :)--> Hang in there, Buddy!

Ugh, OE! I know exactly what you're talking about! Mine wasn't that bad, but I was puking black stuff (blood?) after a few all nighters in a row while in college. I was mixing Tab, Coffee, Tea and No Doz for variety. OD'd on the stuff. Now I fix three cups of coffee in the morning, but really only drink two. The third is like a security blanket, I guess. I always take a cup with me in the car on the way to work, but rarely if ever drink more than a couple of sips of it. Anything more than that and I'll get sick. Now, if I could just get chocolate to have the same effect...

Yep, Don't forget Darlene! :D--> Chef, :o-->