Belle

Very good question, Lindy! I'd love to hear their answer to this one.

Well over a year??? Is God's word really all that complicated? I think not! Why wasn't it researched prior to the mandates and legalism about not being in debt were enforced? Why all the second guessing? Because you know you're wrong??? I thought we were taught that an "open mind" was bad and allowed devil spirits in to influence us incorrectly. I thought our minds were supposed to be jammed shut like a steel trap door? Has that changed? Is it "available" to look at and consider other doctrines, churches and beliefs now? didn't think so. Tell the truth, Rico. It's been that long because it takes that long to figure out how to make the verses fit what you want them to say and to avoid having to admit you were wrong.

Glad Dennis isn't a Menace to some places he's visiting! :D-->

I leave Friday for Mexico. I really hope Emily doesn't give me problems or an unsettled mind about the condition of my home. I'd hate to be on the beach sipping fruity drinks with little umbrellas in them and worrying about my home at the same time.

I also did BFL for a while. I actually followed the whole 12 week challenge. My ex said he saw a difference but that I couldn't continue because getting up too early in the morning made me a very grumpy girl. I found a ton of support, information and good recipes at this site for people who are serious about Body For Life Lean and Strong I absolutely LOVE the Shanny Cake Recipe!! :D-->

No but I can do the clap games and I play a mean game of 4-Square, Dodge Ball and Kick Ball. :D--> Those jump rope games always required way more coordination than I have. I got to be one of the sideline singers when everyone else was jumping.

I like: The Imperials Elvis singing the Southern Gospels :D--> The Anchormen Quartet Legacy Five Ronnie Milsap Soundtrack to Jesus Christ Superstar

It WAS an incredibly uplifting story. I didn't know the people, but thank goodness they got out of TWI or he wouldn't have had the confidence in God that he drew on. He would have, instead, been thinking he must have been really, really out of alignment and harmony for something like this to happen and that he didn't deserve for God to rescue him. Besides that, he probably wouldn't have been able to afford to be enjoying a nice day on the water. :)--> The CG air rescue unit had been told to call of the search & rescue and that they would come back the next day for a recovery mission, expecting him to not last through the night if he was indeed still alive. They CG crew refused and continued looking for him. He got choked up telling of how their insistence saved his life and gave proper credit to them and to God for saving his life. He sounds like a wonderful man with a super family.

And what, pray tell, Rico, do you TWIts do to show love for your neighbor? Do you help those who are arrested and need to be bailed out of jail or do you leave them there for three days? Do you keep your promises to take care of widows or do you ship them off to other relatives? Do you keep your promises to let people visit where their loved ones are buried, or do you sue them? Do you keep your children safe, or do you just "relocate" child molestors? Do you help your "joe believers" move, or do you just leave it to other "joe believers" to figure it out? Do you help those who follow your teachings faithfully help when they are down and need financial or material assistance or do you just tell them "go be warmed"? Do you share the truth with your followers, or do you wait till you're about to be exposed to tell them just enough to make them think you're keeping them informed "A to Z and Soup to Nuts"? I think we all know the answer to those questions, don't we, Rico? ;)--> What a mighty fine example for people to follow!

p.s. Unbreakable, if you haven't read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", I highly, highly, highly recommend it! It will answer some of your questions, I'm sure. :)-->

unbreakable, sure, what you're saying is highly possible. There are some good WC and some have insulated their people from as much of the hurt, pain and abuse that they can, but they can't protect them from the teachings and doctrines of TWI which is the foundation of the destruction of the spirit. Good WC who may be left have a lot of broken hearts and wounded souls in their area and it will take a lot of love and work to heal those hearts. Sure, they can make a difference, but it's limited because TWI still teaches through fear motivation and TWI still spiritually abuses people through their teachings. The only way WC could truly be good is to not teach what TWI teaches and to tell their people NOT to read the Way Rag and NOT to listen to the STS tapes. I'm sorry. I know that's not what you want to hear, but the way I see it, the WC are just one part of the problem, no matter how good they are, they can't take away the hurt of the teachings that have been and continue to come from TWI.

The two I thought wanted to make a difference lived with and were pre-trained by the Moneyhands. It was obvious that they were pre-disposed to "WC are always right" by the time they were leaving for training. They know a lot of the dirt and where some of the bodies are buried and still wanted to go WC. I don't get it, but I don't think they came out the same people that went in and they will easily become Mini-Moneyhands. (The will also most likely get the same kid glove treatment that Brian Moneyhands has obviously gotten)

I can't remember who posted it, but someone on here was put on probation and they jumped through all the hoops to "be allowed" back into the fellowship of the household. --> The first fellowship they went to after this they were confronted on not bringing the ABS that they would have been giving while they were on probation, thus putting them BACK on probation.

We're a "HOW TO" ministry! How many of you heard this? How many times have you heard it? Can you point me to the part of Rico's teaching where he tells "HOW TO" buy a house with cash? Oh, I'm sorry.... HE DOESN'T! He says that just maybe you aren't MEANT to have those red drapes, much less a window to put them on.

Lots of good stuff here! I always love hearing from those of you raised in TWI. It seemed to me that TWI children would always feel a little "different" from everyone one else and somewhat scared of forging friendships with people outside of TWI, even if allowed to. I can so relate to the pressure to be perfect, but growing up with that pressure and the fear of devil spirits everywhere had to be phenomenal and totally incomprehensible for those of us that didn't experience it. I imagine the parents who felt the most pressure to be perfect themselves were especially hard on their children since they knew that having imperfect children was reason enough for dismissal. It's just one horrible vicious circle. :(--> Craig did NOT advocate or promot college for kids until Leah became old enough to consider college. THEN he was for all kids going to college, but then again, he HAD to be. Co-inky-dink? I think not.

Thank you all for the prayers and well wishes! :)--> JustLoafing, I like that site! I bookmarked it since living in FL gives me quite the opportunities to want to look at it. :D--> They were just visiting and will certainly remember it. They enjoyed lots of libations on the beach before heading to the airport. I spoke with them before the last leg of their flight last night. They probably arrived in KY just in time to meet Dennis again. Thanks again, Y'all! I really and truly appreciate it!

Bueller? Bueller?? Where are you?? :)-->

WELCOME BACK, HAM!! I miss you when you're not around. :)-->

"It might take some time to sink in...." Reminds me of craiggers standing up in the video of his class after talking about Eve and her lesbian encounter. He got this stupid grin on his face and said, "Don't you see it? Well, I do!" like that should be enough. Rico is really saying "Just take my word for it." No thanks, Rico. Your logic just isn't up to par. Debt does NOT mean only financial debt and you haven't proven that it does. Moreover, it is merely being behind on your obligation not necessarily just having an obligation. Maybe YOU need to think about it and let it sink in.... Lindy, it's amazing to me how easy it is to see through their illogic, twisting, manipulation and just plain b.s. now. I NEVER would have seen through it a few years ago.

Just talked to a great aunt in Mobile. She said that they just got a lot of rain and wind, but nothing scary or as bad as they had prepared for.....thankfully! I hope all our other GSpotters are doing well and staying safe! It looks like Dennis the Menace is going to go straight over my hometown. I hope he doesn't cause much damage when he gets up there.

That's it GSpotters! It's 28 pages in Word. If you'd like a word doc of it, just PT or e-mail me and I'll ship it off to you. :)--> Since it's so freaking long....do you think we should start a different thread to discuss it or carry on on this thread? There's so many assumptions that he calls "implications" and so many leaps of logic it's laughable. He doesn't actually address debt and what all the scriptures say that mention it, but rather spends so much time talking about a few OT scriptures and how that part of the OT is "implied" to still be in effect in the NT. (Gee, sounds like the "Picking and choosing" thread in practical application. :D-->) He also spends quite a bit of time talking about "law" and "obey" and rendering financial dues to the overseers of the church. --> So much I want to say, but NASCAR is on and that's a priority in this household. :D-->

When it comes to dire and extreme circumstances, that would be something different for everyone. Leadership can’t judge what that is, only you can determine what that is for yourself. They can help to consider options in thinking through. We have household resources available for us so we can do the best in believing God’s word. Only you can determine what your circumstances are and make a decision. The important key is to not knowingly and willingly with disregard (ex: I don’t care what God’s word says, “I want this!”). A lot has to do with attitude and approach. Our attitude reflects so much of HOW we will approach a situation. The point is, “let’s get the account balanced. Let’s utilize the resources of the household. Take the time to consider and really work this material for yourself. It’s important that you look to the scripture to determine for yourself that this indeed is the word of God. It IS available in our day and time, in our culture, to have our needs met and still do it according to God’s word. It may take longer for us to reach our goals than is our preference because we have a tendency in the USA for instant gratification. Must have it NOW! Gotta have….gotta have….. It is available to reach our goals. We have resources, we have knowledge and we have experience in our ministry to help us figure it out. I really think that we are gonna benefit from this directly along with our kids and their kids. With this kind of basis of understanding and figuring things out how we can make things happen and prosper financially in our lives. We have the advantage of holy spirit to help us bring forth more abundantly but we have to be careful that our standard, our standard of success is the word’s standard for success not the world’s standard. The American dream is not to own your own house or business. Debt is not the foundation upon which our country was built but was built on the freedom to choose to succeed or prevail. If that means to you owning a house, or a nice car, or anything else that’s on your heart, we’re not against it, TWI is not against it. Solomon had an abundance of riches beyond belief. It’s vital that we make sure that we understand that God is the one who set the framework for spiritual success, for success in living and that may or may not involve certain material things.

THIS INCLUDES FINANCIAL DEBT!!! “As thyself” once again the love of God is missing here because the emphasis is on the practical. The horizontal is already defined, that we love God with all our heart, soul mind and strength. No destructive evil. The word “law” here is the 75th and last usage in the book of Romans. Dr. closed the “University of Life” teaching on the book of Romans 13:8-10: God does not look upon debt with favor and blessing but with the solution to deal with the impact of debt. He desperately wants us to realize that he is sovereign, that he wants to provide. He will provide, that he wants to protect, he will protect. As saints who hold the line in this category of financial debt, we have the advantage to bring forth more abundantly and really live the higher calling of love. If a man or woman wants to call himself a believer and truly loves God with the love of God, he will not knowingly and willingly with disregard to the word, put himself under a yoke of bondage or legalistic standard when freedom in Christ is available. That being said, if there’s a result of ignorance or wrong teaching or extreme dire circumstances, a believer finds himself in bondage, there is no condemnation, there is no criticism, there is no punishment but rather love will energize his believing to earnestly seek freedom in that category. As a household we can bear this burden by helping where we can, by praying and believing for the deliverance that the person desires. This is a process of teaching freedom in any category that we call in our ministry “release from your prisons”. It is God’s holy ground we can all stand on.

In some ways you can say “there you go, it’s the clearest verse on the subject” but it would be inappropriate to just say “live with it”. The word “owe” here in verse eight is “ophilo” and it is written in the Greek in the commandment. It’s a commandment to be done continuously. Notice how the lessons of the law are brought to mind as this truth is now brought up because of the groundwork that we laid as we’ve gone back and looked at the lessons of the law; then when the law is mentioned it should bring up those lessons in our understanding of what we looked at regarding the subject. You could look at this verse and you could say “it’s not talking about money.” There’s a case to be made for that because, let’s back up and read the first seven verses. If he’s a minister of the word and if there’s evil creeping in, it’s his responsibility to address it. Here’s the logical consequence for unbelief Switches to financial matters here. So, whatever is necessary, whatever is due to that person, that’s what we should give them. If it’s respect for their position or their stand, respect them. If it’s honor for their position or their stand, that’s what we should do, we should honor them. If it’s financial matters, we should support them financially (double honors – means both the respect and the financial support). Context is leaders in the household, yes, but let’s consider our key to the word’s interpretation. First, in the verse right where it is written. OWE NO MAN ANYTHING is really quite clear, it’s not a difficult thing to understand. Second, in the verse, the word or words must be interpreted according to biblical usage. Well, we did a little background already on the word “owe”. Biblical usage, what does the word “owe” mean? It means to leave unsatisfied obligations. We have seen how this word applies financially and morally. Third, words must be used in harmony in the verse as well as all the scripture relating to the subject. We have investigated both OT and NT records regarding debt. The word “owe” must not only be in harmony with not only the verse but all the scripture relating to the subject. You cannot pluck it out and say that it doesn’t apply financially when all the other verses that we read apply either financially or morally. That concept carries through. Fourth, difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses on the subject. This is not the clearest verse on the subject of debt, it has the word “debt” in it. There’s much surrounding it in terms of understanding. Fifth, in respect to whom addressed. Romans is written to the church of God, written to us. All scripture interprets itself in the context. We have read that the context here is leadership in the household. There’s so many lessons we could spend many hours looking through verses 1 through 7, but what do those ministers do in the household? We could go back into the OT and look at how the ministers functioned back then and what were the people to do in response to that. All those truths will help us understand verses 1 through 7. It’s the relationship between the believer and the overseer and how that overseer is to serve that person in the household and how that person in the household is to respond with moral support, financial support. All the lessons of the schoolmaster would help us with this (verses 1 through 7). Let’s look at one example: Even in the OT there was a relationship between those two. There was the service of the Levites and there was the appropriate response of the people, the tenth. So the tithe was to be brought to the overseers who then utilized it properly. So you can see that we’re tying the two concepts together, the overseers of the NT, the Grace Administration, the overseers of the OT and the Law Administration. The LESSONS OF THE LAW help us understand the relationship of the church epistles. So when we get to verse 8 and it says “owe no man anything”, yes, it’s referring textually to the relationship between the person (the believer) and the overseer first. That’s the concept, absolutely, but to say, see, that’s not talking about financial debt; that would be just as inappropriate as saying, see we’re not supposed to be in debt; both would be wrong to say, it’s the only way to be interpreted. God uses the “obey here” and all the weight that it carries, all the context that it carries, communicates a spiritual truth, that spiritual truth of HOW the household is to work together, the believers with the overseers. It’s God’s prerogative to use that word but for some reason here he uses a financial term. To pluck that verse out and say that it is just dealing with the relationship between the believer and the overseer would be equally as wrong. As an example: What type if business is it talking about here? The work of the ministry. Just like Romans 13 we can’t say that it’s only ministry related and be slothful on our secular job. You see, these words just carry so much more. “Dues” it is the word debt. Render to all your moral obligations whether financial or moral. Restates the definition of debt….

I know that culturally speaking, it can be a difficult thing. It can be challenging to see the significance of becoming and enjoying the debt free lifestyle. But again, if we go with the world’s interpretation of what is good and what is right and what is acceptable and we lose the mental concepts of the importance of being financially free, then we start to lose the significance of what God did in Christ, when JC took away the debt and the bondage of the law. Now look Romans 13 and we’re gonna build to this great plateau, this pinnacle in the doctrinal epistle to Romans, which again is the solid foundation upon which the other six rest. We are not gonna build, we have been building and ow we get to Romans 13 and this verse that you know in some ways, understanding what we understand about the definition of debt, the concept of debt, God’s perspective on what constituted debt. Understanding those things in some ways you can say that this is the clearest verse on the matter BUT there’s work to be done here. You would be unfair to just read this verse and say, case closed. Belle note: Isn’t that what they were doing for years???