Belle

So feelings aren't just "icing on the cake" and to be ignored? I never bought into that command anyway, but I see how it was a control technique to get us to ignore our inner dialog and internal fire alarms telling us that something was wrong. It's like the kid who knows they don't like someone but can't exactly tell you why.....then later you find out that the adult was a child molester. The child wasn't hurt because I listened to him and didn't force him to be around that person, but other kids were and most likely because some adult told them they were being silly and to ignore those feelings.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Here's why.... 1) It was never a good program to begin with, so taking it back to what it was is still not "fixing" it. 2) There's no REAL education. The true Biblical scholars were run off because they tried to show vee pee the truth and the correct interpretations, definitions and lessons in the Bible and they were systematically run off by him and those after him. 3) Those responsible for the wrongs, injustices and doctrinal and practical errors of TWI are still in charge. RFR being first and foremost. She's been implicated on charges of actually procuring women for craig, lying on the stand and lying to the people of TWI about her involvement. She's not the only one! 4) Those in the top leadership positions have not been in the "real world" in so long that they've lost touch with reality and have absolutely no idea what the average person's life is like. You can't help people if you don't understand where they are and how to reach them there. 5) TWIts do not REALLY care for people. They aren't allowed to. There's a facade of it, but it's just a whited sepulchre. They refuse to get their hands dirty helping people like the good Samaritan did. He11, they don't even help their own, much less anyone else. 6) They really have nothing to offer people and their reputation preceedes them. WC have been so mis-treated themselves that it's painfully obvious to those who aren't WC. No one wants to put themselves through that. 7) Nuttin' - you get nuttin' to show for it. Dedicate your life to TWI (yep - to TWI - not to God) and they will tell you where to live, how to live, what to do with your money and time and you get nothing to show for it. ESPECIALLY, if you're full time and on their payroll - their benefits (medical, retirement, etc.). 8) You HAVE to tow the company line whether you agree with it or not - whether it's harmful to people or not. I don't think it can be "fixed", but I don't think it ever was "fixed" to begin with.

I'm glad you're still posting, CM! It can get pretty heated around here, but overall I think it's worth it. Very interesting perspective on those verses. I like to think that God isn't as much of a hard-@ss as people make him out to be. I think that so many churches and religions try to control people by saying "God wants you to do...." - "God requires......" People spend too much time straining gnats and swallowing camels. Just today I was telling my co-workers about how excited I am to be sending out CHRISTMAS cards. We started talking about Christmas and the stars and how TWI taught about the zodiac and such. After a time, my co-worker looked at me and asked, "So.....how does this help me in any way? How does it enrich my relationship with God or Jesus?" "Perzactly!" and that's why I'm so excited about going to the singing Christmas tree service and seeing nativity sets with just THREE wise men and enjoying myself this year. So anyway, God is God and he does what he does. We see through the glass darkly and there is so much that we don't know and won't know till he wants us to. In the meantime, I just concentrate on loving God and loving others. Thanks, CM!

But if ya got a nickel Woncha lay yer money down Down on the Corner Out in the Street Willie and the Poor Boys are Playing Bring a nickel; tap yer feet! Down on the Corner by CCR Now I've got the song in my head and my feet tapping to the tune....Thanks! ;) How bout this one? Billy Mack is a detective down in Texas You know he knows just exactly what the facts is

I sooooo relate to this!! I always heard jokes about the Baptist's "Hell Fire and Condemnation" teachings and that the Catholic religion was based on guilt, but I never felt as afraid or guilty as I did while involved with TWI. Nothing we did was good enough and nothing anyone else did was good enough for us. If God is to be likened to our "earthly" fathers then I'd take my "earthly" father over the God that TWI taught any day of the week! He's MUCH EASIER to please. :) Thank goodness I've learned that TWI taught us wrongly about the one true God or they were teaching about the wrong god. Nothing wrong with that. Really! I don't know how long you've been out, but when you were "in" you weren't really allowed to be alone. Even if you were alone physically, the "shoulds" would be running through your brain or other negative thoughts because of the TWIt influence. We were expected to spend great amounts of time with people we didn't really care for or have anything in common with as well. Your desires to be by yourself is perfectly normal and as you get more in touch with yourself again, you'll figure out what balance is right for you. Me? I like to be alone quite a bit as well and it was even moreso in the past year. I'm venturing out a little more now, but I still hibernate and screen calls to some degree.... ;) I felt obligated to find another church right away and was miserable the whole time I visited churches, so I put it off. When I was ready to visit a church again, it was because I wanted to and it was on my own terms. That made it that much more enjoyable. (I DO have a funny story about my first trek out, but it's rather long, so I'll save it for another day). Now, I go when I feel like it and I still haven't volunteered my time for anything. I won't. Not till I'm ready and if someone were to pressure me or "suggest" (wink, wink) that I might "enjoy" doing something, then I'd either tell them ever so kindly why that's offensive to me or I'd just not go back. Two of the biggest things I've learned in my therapy sessions is: 1 - to respect and enforce my personal boundaries. If someone violates or attempts to violate them then I immediately retaliate and perhaps, at times, too forecefully, but I'll get better at that. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with ME - with BELLE and protecting HER than anything else. I deserve it and need it - especially after the past ten years of having others set and violate my personal boundaries. I don't have time for people who bring me down, make me feel bad/inferior or stupid. I don't have the emotional, physical, mental energy to spare. 2 - to be patient with myself. The changes on me and my life by TWI didn't happen overnight and, like losing weight, it's not going to change overnight. There are a bunch of intertwined layers to sort out, peel off and relocate. It's going to take time and I should enjoy the journey, too. It's time to enjoy life and to check out that path I'm on. I can't do that if I'm rushing down the path. I may decide to wander off the one I'm on, but I'll miss the turn and the options if I'm hauling foot. I hope that makes sense and that it's not too long to read. :blink: Anyway, thanks for posting and I hope you continue to. There's a lot of wisdom here at the Cafe and I'm a much better person thanks to these folks. We have special Thanksgiving Cookies today. Everyone take a few, please....

I didn't get to have a long honeymoon because I had to use all my vacation time to spend 2 weeks in Rome City taking the Advanced Class. I didn't have any money to buy nice presents for those helping with the wedding because I had to pay $500 for the class and travel costs to get there. I HAD to go because Moneyhands wouldn't marry us if I wasn't an Advanced Class grad. I also thought it was exhausting. I never went to the thing after the last session because I was too tired. I'd go straight to my room and go to bed. I didn't get up till the last minute in the mornings, either and then struggled to stay awake during the dang sessions. I wasn't really happy to be there and I was an emotional wreck during the whole time, before and after, too. Georgi@ R@ve died while I was there and God had told me that was going to happen. I missed her memorial service and was sorry about that. Think Lizzy, WELCOME TO THE CAFE!!! It's good to "read" you! I see you've already had a danish. I made some special Thanksgiving Cookies this morning; would you care for a few of these? *edited because I forgot to actually offer the cookies.

Well, I've been in trouble before and had to hire a lawyer to plead for me. I had to talk to him prior to and after we appeared before the judge. The Bible says that Jesus is our advocate and it seems only right that we can and should talk to him. That's not to say that we don't talk to God, too, but I don't see where we are told that we shouldn't talk to him at all. *shrug* But then again, I'm no longer dissecting verses and straining gnats... I have only seen the stations of the cross once and that was with my way-brained ex-catholic, ex-husband. Reading these posts makes me want to go see them again and to read Mark's links. I think in TWI, we really weren't taught the proper appreciation for Jesus's life and his accomplishments. Whenever Jesus was mentioned there was always a "yeah, but...." attached to it. IMO, there is no "yeah, but..." and I've pretty much chucked as much of that attitude as I can. ;) BTW, Mark, depending on how you're travelling...you have to travel through Van Lear and Offutt to get to the hollow (holler) where my mom and dad live. :D

Thanks, Johnny! :D I love learning about how other people live. We seem to take things for granted in our own little corners of the world sometimes and it's fascinating to learn about the "everyday" life of others. Those things that just become "habit", "normal" and "routine" are truly foreign to others who don't have the same challenges. I just love it! I think I'm a voyeur at heart. ;) I'll remember to not buy the moose nugget jewelry if I ever get the honor of visiting Alaska. My Daddy lived in Juneau for a summer during college working on the pipeline and laying trails along it. He loved it so much up there that he took about 700 rolls of film. When he got home he made everyone watch his slide show about a million times and so I grew up with the family joke about the famous "Alaskan Slide Show". Mama and Daddy went back last year and he got his picture made in front of the cabin they stayed in posing in the exact place where he had posed as a young college student. It's a great comparison shot and having the two pictures hanging side by side at home is really neat. I hope to get to visit sometime.

And therein lies the problem. :ph34r: Talk is cheap and statements like that aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Show me some actual sweeping changes and then we'll have something to talk about.

Some people on here would say, "So what? At least he did a lot of great things for Christ." Linda, I can't believe they're just misdemeanors either.

((((RON)))) HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, RON! I hope it's absolutely wondermous!

Heh heh heh .... those little ones sure do keep life from being boring, don't they? This Christmas will have no kids around since we're all grown and none of us have any of our own yet. It's nice getting to enjoy sitting around the table and just enjoying visiting with each other, but it's also too quiet sometimes and the "magic" is missing since no one's looking for Santa on Christmas eve. I don't mind sharing the recipe at all! I got it from a co-worker after a company Thanksgiving Pot Luck Dinner one year. Lost it and called him the next year for it again! I love it, but you'll soon see why! It's a vegetable dish, technically, so you can have it and still get dessert. Sweet Tater Cassarole Mix in a large mixing bowl: 3 Cups Sweet Potatoes - Mashed 1 Stick Butter 1 Cup Sugar 2 Eggs - Beaten 1/2 Cup Milk 1 Tablespoon Vanilla Put the above mixture in a 13"x9" baking dish Topping: 1 Cup Brown Sugar 1/3 Cup Butter - Melted 1/3 Cup Flour 1 Cup Chopped Pecans 1 Cup Coconut Mix the above and sprinkle on top of the sweet potato mixture. Bake at 350 until brown on top (about 30 minutes) I used hazelnuts this year and it was yummy! I saw someone put raisins in theirs and think I might try that tomorrow. It's so quick and easy - my kinda cooking!

That's what I was thinking, Chef! I think I'm too much of a wimp to live in Alaska, but it sure does seem like a great place to eat! If you don't have enough salmon to spare, I'll take some moose, caribou, beer, and squaw candy. What's a moose nugget? What's mosquito dope? This happened in my home town growing up. Glad to hear it's still around somewhere. What's a Spenard Divorce? How do they grow pot in all that snow? I guess it's pretty dang obvious I'm not from Alaska, eh?

Awwww shucks, thanks Johnny! I can be a total b1tch if the situation calls for it. ;) But I'd much rather drink some Absolut with you, and I can have a wee bit too much fun sometimes. B)

Diazbro, excellent psycho babble! :) I agree to a degree. I think it's highly possible to supress your identity under serious duress and stress. That's what happened to me. I became a totally different person in practically every way. My grandmother said she would not have recognized me if she were to meet me on the street and outside of a family function. I hardly smiled, hardly laughed, didn't really make jokes, was extremely impatient and insensitive with others, was downright rude in some situations and regarding some topics... It took the scales starting to fall away and realizing who I had become and what I had done to try to fit into the TWIt mold before I started getting back to my "true self". Talking to family and friends about how I 'used to be' before TWI helped a great deal with me. Perzackly! Great way of stating that, too, if I may say so. Very true! I don't know that I've looked at that that way before. Thank you. Very good observation and thank God that we are so resilient!

Those are definitely lyrics I would never have associated with a Madonna tune. ;)

Thank you all for your responses. PLEASE remember that this thread was started to help answer a question by a new poster regarding adjusting to life outside the walls of TWI. If your experiences and if your thoughts are not pertinent to the initial question, then please start your own thread or post elsewhere. This thread is intended to specifically address this question. Free Soul, I think I got your name wrong in the title, and I apologize for that. To know if you returned to your "true self" you would have to know who that is on some level. Some of that comes from evaluating whether or not you are behaving in a way that lines up with what you think and believe to be true and correct. "Cognitive Dissonance" is the technical term for people who act contrary to what they believe. It can literally make a person sick. For example: many of us did not buy a home because that's what TWI told us was right even though all logic and common sense shows that if one is going to be in an area for a long period of time that it is the wisest and most financially sound thing to do. Many people wanted to buy a home so that their children could go to the same school system throughout their education instead of having to move every year or so because of rent prices, landlords selling homes, etc. Another example is how craig used to teach all the time about letting the "peace of God rule" in our hearts, but we weren't allowed to do that because THEY told us what behaviors were supposed to lead to that. Learning to make our own decisions and to succeed or fail by them is probably one of the hardest things I had to deal with when I left. I was so used to TWI and my ex-husband telling me what was proper, acceptable and good and I was expected to follow that direction regardless of how I really felt about things. I eventually got to where I didn't think about things - I just did what I knew I was supposed to do in order to keep from getting yelled at. Those things caused anxiety, panic attacks and depression for me because I did not agree, deep down, that they were right. Now, if I feel uncomfortable about something, I do something about it. If that means NOT doing something, then that's what it means. Learning to listen to myself, my feelings, emotions and "intuitions" (for lack of a better word) has been a slow but very rewarding process. Hopefully these ideas and suggestions are helpful. :)

Glad you made it home in time for the holidays, Brother Speed!! So glad you're home!! Thank you for your service to our country!!

Ron, I'm sooooo jealous!! Sounds absolutely heavenly!! I LOVE smoked turkey - ESPECIALLY with the fruity woods!! If you didn't live so far away, I'd probably crash your dinner. :P WN! I haven't had deep fried turkey, but I hear that people who have had it won't cook it any other way again. But be careful! I also hear that it can be really, really dangerous. I'm eating at a neighbor's house and our turkey is being prepared a la Publix. :blink: I preferred Honey Baked Ham if we were going to go that route, but I'm not paying for it, so..... I'll keep my mouth shut - bring my famous sweet potato cassarole, sweet potato pie and cranberry sauce and I'll thoroughly enjoy the company and goodies.

WhiteDove, I stand behind my posts. Lifted assumed the purpose of the thread and assumed wrongly which sent the thread off onto a whole nother tangent. I'm not complaining, just merely expressing what I had hoped would be the direction of the thread. In my opinion just posting some other rebuttal quotes is a waste of time. It doesn't generate any discussion - it just becomes a "Yo Mama" - "YO Mama" thread with a couple of posts and then dies. I really wanted to discuss the ideas presented and I emphasized - I don't know how many times - that I don't necessarily agree with all of them. Again, that's an assumption, WhiteDove. ;) That's what gets my goat more than anything else. I don't know how to be any more clear in my communication. In the church where I grew up, we studied the Bible, but we didn't worship the Bible and we didn't live by "chapter & verse". We were encouraged to ask questions and to think aloud and we discussed things and sometimes it got heated. In TWI we worshiped the Bible and considered it the end all and be all of life with "everything pertaining to life and godliness" at the expense of our own reasoning, thinking, intuition and practical common sense. I've been reading and studying about the history of religions in general, Judaism, Catholicism and Christianity. It's brought up some questions in my mind that I'm still pondering. I have already epounded om some of the quotes and what thoughts they generated in my mind and was interested in the thoughts of others. I am not, nor was I looking for a fight or a whole nother set of quotes - I'm very familiar with those kinds of quotes. I value the opinions of most of the people on here and was hoping for some valid discussions. *shrug* It didn't happen that way - no biggie, but I'm not going to retract what I said just because of it. I'm sorry that you were offended, truly. I thought it was funny. I still do. I think it's funny how I can laugh at red neck jokes, but some bonafide red necks get offended by them. I can laugh at southern jokes but some southerners get offended by them. I think it's healthy to not take ourselves too seriously.

That was all too evident and common with TWI leadership. They talked about the WC being fashioned after the military, but the military leadership were even more supportive, kind-hearted and instrumental in the growth and betterment of their troops. TWIt leadership were nothing like military leadership. I remember the Moneyhands being very upset about having a vacation interrupted because someone died. GASP! How DARE this man die while they were on a tropical vacation and cause them to have to come home to deal with unbelieving family members and prepare a memorial service for someone who is responsible for his own death since he didn't take care of himself??? (Funny how that was NEVER mentioned about vee pee's death) Remember how the leaders were always given the best seats in the house and always went first in the food lines? Remember how we got lists of how to "bless" them and rules for taking care of them when they visited our houses? Mark, you have it right, my friend! There was no leadership by example; no compassion or actual "doing" of anything for the least of the brothers, much less anyone else. Excellent topic, Rascal!

Free Soul, I started a thread to address the process of getting back to your True Self here for you: Free Soul Welcome Thread ;) We ARE here to help one another and discussing your individual questions is exactly why many of us hang around....it's to help those who are trying to get over the impact TWI had on us and our lives. I've been out just over a year, so I'm still learning, growing and sorting things out myself. It's okay if you can't finish anything and if you have a wariness about committing yourself to something. It's perfectly understandable. We were "trapped" for so long that it's only natural to be very cautious about falling into that pattern again. For some of us, our self-esteem was utterly destroyed and we have to build that back up before we're able to even think about other areas of our lives where we were affected. Please feel free to ask any questions you might have and to talk about anything that's on your mind. You'll find a wealth of information, experience and wisdom here at the Cafe. It's also nice to learn that you're not alone and that others have experienced, thought, felt, wondered some of the same things.

Y'all really endured some terrible things and none of it is lame, Ex10! :) All those things build up to make one huge impact on our lives. I wonder if that woman was afraid of getting into trouble for not believing big enough for those she was responsible for. OR she was a superb prototype TWIt and blamed you for having a problem and needing to come to her in the first place..... either way - sheesh! So much for "doing good unto all men", eh? ;) Johnny, You are a true treasure! Thanks for sharing that story! I'm sorry you were treated so badly, but living well is the best revenge and you're living it in 48K Gold!

So dear old vee pee told people to quit smoking and to use that money to pay for their wc training. He would know how much money that requires. Dear old vee pee told people how importance self-control is yet vee pee was a chain-smoking, drambuie drinking alcoholic who also exercised absolutely no self-control over his temper and sexual perversions. Dear old vee pee told people that cancer was a devil spirit and caused because people weren't living according to the word yet vee pee himself died of cancer. Because of his teachings and the sheer hipocracy of it, his minions covered up the cause of his death and placed the blame on those who were the least responsible. TWI continued to teach that cancer was devil spirit possession because it was life of its own even after vee pee's death. TWI continued to teach that when bad things happened to people it was because they were not living according to the standards of the Bible as TWI taught them UNLESS said bad things were happening to those minions who were then being attacked because they were "standing in the gap" for God's people. Just depends on how much you were worth to TWI as to which reason was given for YOUR situation. I repeat - to this day they do not admit that vee pee died of cancer!

12K in total worldwide? That's TEN YEARS AGO and rather paltry compared to the height of TWI and especially so now that "membership" is considered around 4,000 in the US. There are states that don't even have a TWIt presence. I imagine that the "international" presence of TWI is even less. I think, too, that if a US soldier is sent overseas that they automatically include that country in their list of "international" countries. Given the honest reporting by TWI, I would suspect that to be the case. If they truly were international and had much to brag about they would publish the numbers of their followers and the locations where they have fellowships. They don't and they will not divulge that information even when asked. I know. I've asked.