Belle

So, if she doesn't speak in tongues, does that mean she's not born again?

Digi, glad to see you found us! Please visit any time! I really like it down here, actually, we usually have civil discussions and even civil disagreements. Why just last week everyone was enjoying beer after agreeing to disagree on a subject. :P Oak, you're absolutely correct! Thank you for the reminder. ;) How true that is! The thing that gets me is that those "other" books were widely read, widely discussed and apparently just as important as the other books that DID make it. Why were they completely discarded after they didn't make the cut? Seems a little fishy to me..... It seems also that many sects and various cultures may have had a foundation of Christianity, but each group worked out the details as it suited their culture, time and individual needs. Not a bad way to go, imo. Seems most of the denominational churches allow for that sort of lifestyle for the most part, too. I think a lot of the hang up for me has been getting rid of that "God breathed Word" idol that we were taught to worship. It felt sacreligious to not consider the Bible sacred given by revelation scriptures. Perhaps getting past that belief is one of the ways many of us begin to grow and heal. I know, for me, it has been extremely healing and freeing to realize that the Bible is fallible and that it is NOT the end all and be all for my life and the way I'm supposed to live. Like you said, Oak, it's not turning your back on God, although some people may choose to do that as well after giving up the belief that the text is "sacred". I think the Bible was put together for manipulative, political and financial reasons by those in the power to do so. After all the Bible devotes some 500 verses on prayer, less than 500verses on faith, but over 2000 verses on money and posessions.

Wow! Color me very impressed! Congratulations, Digitalis. You have absolutely every reason to be a proud Mama. Thank you for sharing the news with us! I have the utmost respect for our military and I'm so thankful men like your son and our wonderful posters here sign up to serve in the USA military. Sounds like he's extremely skilled and talented and doing great things with it. Isn't is awesome to see your loved ones doing well at something they love to do? Congrats to both of you!

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, LITTLEHAWK!!! I hope it's as special as you are!!

HEY, BAGPIPES!!! Welcome to the Cafe! Since it's afternoon, may I interest you in some CHRISTMAS cookies? ;) I've only been out just over a year, so I am all too familiar with the feeling of lonliness and discontentment while being torn between wanting something "better" - something "outside the walls of Zion", yet wanting to keep the family stable and in tact. My never TWI family raised me in a Christian home and all my friends growing up were Christian of one faith or another. I saw them living the lives I wanted so badly. I saw them happy, healthy, prospering, peaceful and just plain enjoying life. It became harder and harder to reconcile THAT with the fact that that life was what TWI said we were supposed to have and that they had the audacity to say that we DID have. If we didn't have it, it wasn't TWI's fault, it was our fault because we were obviously "missing it" or out of "alignment and harmony" somehow. You make a great point about how much harder it is for those who were around during some "good times" to leave. I suspect those good times make people hope and wish that there's hope for getting back to those days. Me? I never had any really good times like that in TWI, so when I finally came around to realizing I had been hoodwinked and was being destroyed by the spiritual and verbal abuse, it was actually pretty easy to make the decision to leave. It was fighting for five years to try to get my husband to see the same things and deciding I had to leave whether it meant divorce or not that was the hard part. Goey, who posts here has a signature line that says something along the lines of the good times in TWI that he remembers never really happened. Upon reflection, I think there are others who would agree with that. It's scary as all get out to post online for the first few times. Trust me, it gets easier. :) Glad you're here and I look forward to "reading" more of you!

I say Christmas at every chance I get and I've sent out CHRISTMAS cards for the past two years. I purposely look for the ones that mention CHRISTMAS. I really liked one set, but they didn't have the dreaded word, so I passed on them. :P Now I notice lots of stores are eliminating the word from their advertising so as not to offend. HELLOOOOO.....isn't CHRISTMAS a Christian event? Supposed to be, anyway. They why the he11 can't they use the word? I also looked for an angel to put on my tree but couldn't find one I liked, so I opted for the bright shining star instead. It's so nice to be able to say and do whatever you want!! CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS CHRISTMAS

I agree with Jardinero. Please don't feed the troll. The ignore function is a wonderful thing and it seems to have run off more than one troll when people refuse to acknowledge them and especially refuse to engage them in conversation.

themex, I think I recall a discussion about that previously and no, no one came forth to say that they had heard her SIT. Furthermore, there weren't even any second-hand witnesses of her SIT-ting. But, why do you ask? ;)

Y'all are correct - PFAL did teach it that way and, Socks, I believe you are correct in what Paul probably meant, but I'm not talking about how vee pee taught it - I'm talking about "scripture build up" / "WAP and TWI build up" if you will. Craig's administration. Craig's compounding of scriptures to build and drive home the manipulative, hateful mindset that he had and expected of us. Craig's cronies, like Moneyhands, fueling and expanding on that hate and disgust. Craig got to the point where all we heard were that everyone outside TWI was part of the egg-sucking world and that even the cop outs were tinkling and clanging bells to God. Furthermore, those who "said" they were born again weren't considered to be born again unless they spoke in tongues. I have provided the quotes and the processional process of his teachings to lead one to that conclusion. Anyone outside of TWI was worthless and no better than a "natural man" - even those who had been involved with TWI at one time....actually, ESPECIALLY those who had been involved with TWI at one time and were now considered "cop outs" or M&A. We were taught to hate and that hate included considering those who didn't speak in tongues as animals and not REALLY born again. We know that TWI often taught one thing on paper and another thing in the verbal arena, as well as among the different "circles" and hierarchies within TWI.....for one example, the "if you're spiritual enough you can handle it" teachings among those who were physically abused. It's all over the place and throughout the history of TWI. I just don't get why it's so hard to see how these teachings on SIT aren't any different.

From the WAP Syllabus and a previous post of miner You and WD obviously haven't read the myriad of quotes that I posted for you and nothing, not even a video clip of craig saying that's what he taught, is good enough. I quit - I'm an idiot and just making sh1t up. I've hallucinated more teachings than you've forgotten. What a waste of time my posts must be.

I have about ten pair of jeans. I wear them almost every day. Thank God for small companies and casual work environments! :P

The Aviator Jude Law I Heart Huckabees

Awwww, heck, WW! I can hear the song and even sing the lyrics, but I have absolutely NO IDEA which part of the lyrics are the title much less who sings it.

Yeppers, Skyrider, I've also talked to not a few innies who feel the same way and these people were never even involved with the wc program. One family moved from one city to another because the WC told them to since there wasn't much TWIt presence in that city. Now the city they moved from is one of the largest TWIt areas in their state. They gave up good jobs and a nice home to take lesser jobs and pay higher rent. They're bitter, but still in. It's only a matter of time for them. They are seeing more and more injustice and stupidity in TWI every meeting. They don't tell anyone about TWI because they feel stupid and they are embarrassed that they allowed themselves to be so mis-treated and taken advantage of. They certainly don't want anyone they care about to have their lives derailed like theirs were. I'm hoping against hope that my ex, who not all that long ago called TWI a boring religion, is seeing how absolutely pathetic they are now that he's working with Mr Linder in Security at HQ. I'm also hoping that he doesn't ignore those nagging thoughts and feelings that he's been having for years. It's the fear that keeps him from doing anything about it. The young adults who aren't isolated are recognizing the discontent and boredom of the older folks and don't want to live like that. Their ideas for change will be shot down enough times for them to get frustrated enough to leave. It's going to be a rough lesson for those idealistic optomists, but even they, I think, will eventually give up on trying to clean up those old wineskins and will move on to greener pastures where they really can affect change, help people, be themselves and grow without compulsion.

Lifted, I posted about the "battlefield promotion". We had all our meetings about craig and the lawsuits and then about rosie becoming president at their house. For a while there it felt like we were there all the time. They read their letter to rosie upon the announcement of her taking over as president and I don't remember a whole lot about it, but I vividly remember the letter started out with the words "We take no pleasure in battlefield promotions...." I was in shock! It wasn't the ooey gooey sweetness and light that Dottie is so noted for and it wasn't really a very nice letter in the whole scheme of things. It was kind of like "well, since you're "it" we'll support you, but know that we don't like this change and we don't like the way things have come down." I'm sure I still have my notes at home somwhere, but I'm hesitant to post them since I'm apparently not a reliable source of information and if something hasn't been printed by TWI but was merely mentioned or taught at a fellowship, it didn't happen and isn't worthy of mention.

Excerpts from Doojable on the Sickness thread: During counselling sessions with Moneyhands before our wedding he referred to BOTH of our families as "unbelievers" - despite the fact that my ex's parents are devout Catholics and my parents are devout Southern Baptists, have taught Sunday School and are very active in the church and local charities. I corrected him on this once, but he said that if they haven't spoken in tongues it's best to assume that they aren't born again, no matter how "nice" they were. Then he'd give his famous little smirk. Fine if you don't want to believe me and the others who have also verified this. We already know that people heard different things and that teachings were perverted and exaggerated. We know that not everything that was taught was written down. I'm not so stupid as to believe everything I read on here and I resent the implication that I am.

He's got God on his side. He's got the saints and apostles Backin' up from behind.

What kind of southern gal would I be if I didn't know this one? ;) Not one who grew up going to the annual Blues Festival in Green-vull, MS - that's for sure! That's why I'm singing the Blues by THE King - BB

WD, you're hung up on vee pee's teachings. vee pee all but disappeared in the 90's. I just gave you a quote - typed in the syllabus - anyone with the syllabus can verify. Craig said: "All sickness is due to broken fellowship of man" The wages of sin are death - if someone is sick, it's because they have sinned - if they have sinned, they are heading toward death. It takes "getting back into fellowship" to escape that impending death. If you want to talk about what vee pee taught, I can't say - I don't know because I wasn't taught what vee pee taught. What craig taught has very little resemblance to what vee pee actually taught.

Can't says that I've done that, but this morning I did have a panic attack because I let my dog out in the back yard since she can "supposedly" be back there unsupervised now that I finally got that new fence. I come to GSpot to check the posts and suddenly hear what sounds like a geyser in the back yard and the dog barking like she's just killed something only to find out that she's knocked the water fawcett off the pvc pipe that it was on. (She is named Vixen for a reason. ;) ) Water is shooting up four feet into the air and it's right against the wall of the Florida Room so I'm worried about the water coming into the room. I can't find the shut off valve for the water so, in my jammies I'm running down the street to the one neighbor I know knows how to turn the water off and she's not home. I knock on two more doors and no one is home. Finally found a neighbor home who knows absolutely nothing about turning the water off to the house, "You can do that??" and he's still in his jammies too, so I rush back home trying to figure out what to do. My next door neighbor is outside getting his newspaper and talking on his cell phone, so I yell and ask him if HE knows how to turn the water off to my house. He kindly gets off the phone and laughs at the gushing geyser in my back yard and the now growing pond around the water feature. He can't find the shut off valve either, but we DID find the one to the inside of the house (I have two separate water systems). I go inside and call the water company who says they can't repair it but can come turn the water off - well 'DUH' that's all I need right now. Please send someone over! "He's on another call, but I'll let him know to come there when he gets done." Thank you! I'm impatient and it's gonna need to be repaired anyway, right? I start calling the "emergency" sprinkler repair places in the yellow pages - voice mail or "it'll be over an hour before we can get there." "Did I mention, ma'am, that my back yard is FLOODING??? I don't HAVE an hour to wait!" Another unsuspecting neighbor across the street comes out.... "Nevin, do you have two water systems?" She does! Yeah! "Do you know how to turn your water off to the irrigation system?" Ummmm.......they showed me when they put it in, but....well, actually, NO, I don't know how to turn it off.... Great. Well, thanks anyway.... Poor kid comes out from the house across the street. His dad works till the wee hours of the morning, so I figured he was probably asleep, but try anyway, "Josh, is your daddy up yet?" "Naw, he didn't get home till 7am - he's dead to the world. Want me to wake him up?" Nope - please don't wake him up. Call the friends who used to live next door to me....voicemail. Call Daddy - he's in KY and not much of a handyman, but hey - I'm desperate. He laughs and tells me that it should be around the meter. The meter - which one is the inside and which one is the outside? They're both covered in about three feet of sand/dirt. (I'm wondering about those water meters and how they determine my bills now, but no time for that) Get a call from one of the emergency services....the poor lady tries to tell me that legally there is supposed to be some kind of backflow valve right under my irrigation system timer. I can't find anything. I tell her where I live and she tries to get in touch with her husband to see how close he is to me. While she does that I chop the Azalea Bush under the irrigation timer to shreds in case it's hiding the backflow valve this woman has told me about.....no dice. I'm about to really panic because the pond is now growing to a small lake and the water is still gushing four feet into the air! FINALLY, a huge Seminole County Water & Sewer truck pulls up. They guy looks for the legally required backflow valve and can't find it. So, it's to digging around the meter and he pulls out some long rod and turns it a few times. That's it - no more water gushing. He shows me on my neighbor's house what I'm SUPPOSED to have and goes on his merry way. So, no, I can't says I've had any problems with U-joints, but the fact that you even know something about how to fix things is HIGHLY RESPECTABLE in my eyes! I'll bet you would have been able to help me with my problem, too. I hope those sandy u-joints exceed your expectations! :D If nothing else, hopefully my morning helps make you feel better.

WhiteDove, I think, like OM, you aren't going to believe anything you don't want to believe no matter what proof is presented to you. Besides that, you keep talking about vee pee and another TWI than the one I was involved in. vee pee was a nobody and hardly ever even referred to, much less mentioned, during my involvement. I AM looking for more proof for you, but I actually have a life outside of GSpot AND I can hardly bear to re-read the quotes, notes and information from these classes. There may or may not be a written quote, "If you don't speak in tongues you aren't born again" but you surely know that many things are taught and put together to make a point without documentation that can later be brought back to prove to those who doubt you. For me, the fact that my ex-husband, who was a diligent disciple of craiggers and moneyhands, refused to admit that my family was born again because they never spoke in tongues and the fact that that dear, sweet lady was M&A for not speaking in tongues is evidence enough of what was taught, but - whatever. Here are some quotes from the Intermediate Class of craig's that show the distaste for those who don't speak in tongues and all these teachings in addition to the ones in the AC and the STSs build to one lesson regarding SIT and being born again. Page 40 He spends at least an hour on "Be Not Ignorant" of spiritual matters. Pausing on 1 Cor 12:1 - This is the fourth admonition to not be ignorant in the epistles Four always has reference to all that is created - the number of material completeness The spirit of God is the light of God in concretion. God, who is light, broke that essence down in spirit, and then put spirit in mankind. He put it in a category that mankind could house in the body - in the mind. 1 Cor 12:2 Know - oida - you have a clear picture in your mind that you were (past tense) gentiles. he's reminding the believers, and indeed us, "Remember what you used to be before you belonged to God" - body-soul dumb = inanimate idols = what makes a dumb idol able to attract and conduct away people is the spirit energy and life that associates itself with it. Every genuine idol had a devil spirit(s) associated with it. That's what draws people to it. Eph 2:11-14 "in the flesh" = body-soul 1 Corinthians is reproof; it corrects practical error. Paul focuses their attention to spiritual matters, "it's God's passionate, intense desire that you're not ignorant, notvoid of understanding concerning spiritual matters." He's confronting them, "Why have you fallen back into this false teaching?" 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore - Indicates a practical application of a preceding truth which is in verse 2. He's saying to them to stay humble and meek and to get moving again. "Spirit of God" - gift in manifestation "accursed" = anathema. Unbelievers had been teaching - to counter the great movement of the Word in the first century - that when they spoke in tongues, they were cursing Jesus Christ - which is an absolute lie. "can say" = can really say the text reads say = eipon - to utter definite words; to enunciate words; to speak or utter words successively. It's to speak in tongues. (page 42) "no...[one] can [really] say that Jesus is the Lord, but by...[holy spirit]" - an idiom. idioma - a colloquial phrase in the culture, meaning, "No one can affirm from the heart that Jesus is lord but by speaking in tongues." It's a figure of speach; it means it's emphatic. My note: This is where a lot of the foundation for us regarding the worthlessness and beginning disdain for those who SAY they are Christians but don't fellowship with TWI or have been heard to SIT are not really born again. Romans 10:9-10 say that you have to confess Jesus as lord to be born again - hence, if you can't REALLY say Jesus is lord without speaking in tongues, then you aren't REALLY born again. People who weren't paying close attention or hanging on every word of craig may have missed these kinds of things. My ex and I were die-hards and have a whole library of transcripts of his teachings. We didn't miss much. :mellow: Further into the syllabus (I guess this is the equivalent of "scripture build up" via the syllabus: Page 48 1 Cor 12:27 is speaking of the long suits that each believer - as he wills to manifest - can develop, and how all that contributes and works together in the functioning household of God. Members of the Body Counterfeit Teachings: 1 - A mamber has only one or two gifts of the spirit 2 - Secular occupations 3 - Ecumenical unity Baptist, Methodist, etc. - Not denominations The context is "spiritual matters". Members refer to those born again who are functioning, willing to operate the manifestations according to the Word. This is referring to a healthy "body". "drink into one Spirit" - we've all manifested power from on high by speaking in tongues. Page 49 1 Cor 12:14-19 "as it...pleased him" - We know what pleases God; He energizes all in all. Believeing pleases God. So as that member wills to believe to manifest, that pleases God, and God opens the door for that person's long suits in the Body - that felloowship - to function and contribute. 1 Cor 12:20,21 "I have no need of you" - We should never think less of any functioning believing believer in the Body. And no functioning believer is any more important than anyone else in the household. It takes all of us in the household to keep the Body healthy, vital, alive. My quote of craig in my notes: This is a warning to US today - NOT REFERRING TO COP-OUTS. If you're a functioning believer - you're very important and necessary to the ministry. Page 53 1 Corinthians 13 sets the apex in renewed-mind heart of the walk of a believing believer and the pinacle of the walk of the household together. This is where he teaches the new definition of Agape as the love of/for God in our renewed mind in manifestation in the household of God. He furthermore emphasizes that to love God is to obey his Word - obeying his word includes speaking in tongues - therefore, if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't obeying God and you're lying about really loving him. I have another quote note from craige: "We have to keep it in perspective, everyone THINKS they love" Page 54 1Cor 13:1 "tinkling" - clanging. The speaking in tongues is genuine, but the individual - that doesn't do it because he loves God and therefore wants to manifest that love in the renewed mind in the househodl of God - IS WORTHLESS. It is a figurative way to say his life is worthless. If someone who genuinely speaks in tongues can be "worthless" how much less must we have been taught to think of those who don't speak in tongues at all. John 15:1-6 "nothing" - that means worthless "burned" - because they are worthless 1 Cor 13:2 "the gift of" - a treacherous addition. Scratch it out. "I could remove mountains" - exaggeration to get our attention as to how important our mind-set is as we operate the gift that God has given us. "nothing" - worthless 1 Cor 13:3 "bestow all my goods" - share everything you've got with the household "profiteth...nothing" - meaning the impact of the energizing of that manifestation of of that ministry will profit the individual and the household immediately. Page 55 1 Cor 13:4 "is kind" - We are kind because God first loved us, so we love him back by being kind to the faithful in the household. In the senses realm people are kind with a motive. What most people call love is based on expediency: At best, that's human love, brotherly love - phileo This is all I have time for right now. But I'm still looking, I don't know why, to prove to you that we are not hallucinating or creating some alternative reality about what we learned in TWI II.

I think it's more than the words used by vee pee and craiggers - it's the IMPLICATIONS, the GUILT and the OPPRESSION and ABUSE that came along with those words. I'm still looking through my notes about SIT and being born again, but I found this in my notes from the Intermediate Class of craig's on page 36. My personal notes added at the time of the class which are quotes of craig are in italics. Matthew 9:6,8 Power = "exousia" He had the privilege to forgive sin and to heal. Healing is the mainfestation that especially brings into reality God's willingness to forgive sin. He exercised his privilege and authority. All sickness is due to broken fellowship of man

Happiest of Birthdays to you!!! You are absolutely wonderful!! I'm so glad to know you!

You are refusing to answer my question and instead changing the subject AND taking my words out of context, OM. I refuse to play in your little games. Re-read my post. It explains that comment very well.

So you believe craiggers who was caught lying, cheating, stealing and raping? Why am I not surprised.