Belle

I got a PM this morning asking me about "unconditional love" and where the term originated and where it is found, etc. I remember being taught about God being all-loving, all-knowing, everywhere present, but I can't for the life of me come up with a specific chapter & verse or other origin of the teaching. This was taught in the Baptist church where I grew up as well as in TWI, so it isn't just a TWI doctrine, but I still can't document it. I may just need more coffee, but in the meantime, could some of you weigh in on this one? Thanks!!

Didn't know if the new posters have seen this little dittie from their woggie.

Quite timely, ya think?

QUESTIONS TO ASK: 1. Do you have a financial statement that shows where all the money goes to? (they should not hesitate to give you a detailed one) 2. Do you feel you are the one true church? (if they say "yes," they are an exclusive group and may teach a false gospel) 3. How much am I expected to give monetarily? (if they say you must tithe or give generous donations regularly, you may end up being exploited financially and made to feel guilty) 4. Can I disagree with the pastor or minister? What happens if I do? (if they say "no," you are being asked to have unquestioned obedience to the authority.) 5. Am I expected to show up for services every week, the Bible studies, and be actively involved in your church programs? (if they say "yes," they may be a high demand group) 6. Do you observe certain Sabbaths, holy days or similar meetings during the year that members are commanded to attend? (if they say "yes," they may be placing members under Old Testament laws which were fulfilled in Christ) 7. Do you have a headquarters with a general pastor that sets the pace for the belief system, distributing material and information to all congregations? (if they say "yes," they are probably authoritarian) 8. Is this leader accountable to anyone over him? (if they say no, there is potential for abuse) 9. Can I find salvation outside your church? (if they say "no," they are exclusive and cultic) 10. Can I ask questions concerning the past sins of the founder of the group, or any past corruption or immorality? (if they say "no," or that the past "should be forgotten," they are probably involved in cover-up and revision of their history) 11. Can I ask questions about Scriptures that disagree with your doctrines? (if they say "no," they are controlling and cultic) from Here TWI knows the right answers and that's what they'll tell you, but the reality of the answers speaks louder than their words of b.s.

Fruits of false leaders: Vee pee, craig and rfr never admitted to anyone that they were wrong. They had an attitude of arrogance and pride and would not even listen to those who tried to correct them. … The Word of God shows us that if anyone has the mind of Christ … there will be good fruit produced and there will be a true turning from sin. vee pee and craig "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ..." (I John 3:10) Ministers who complained, or asked hard questions about these things, were fired. "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others may also fear" (I Timothy 5:20). Great harm can be done to a church by sin in the life of its leaders." ~ J. Vernon McGee Are we to remain in a group and fellowship with such leaders who have lifted up vee pee, craig and rfr? Are we to follow hypocrites? Should we allow these "ministers" to rule over us and pay homage to them? The Word of God is clear: "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat" (I Cor. 5:11). "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (II Timothy 3:5) After everything this article has touched on, why would members want to defend vee pee, craig and rfr’s sins, or believe that they could ever have been "used by God"? Because no one wants to admit that they have been deceived and conned by a hypocritical, fraudulent "minister of God" who headed a religious cult and got away with it. It is very uncomfortable to believe any new information that contradicts what one has previously believed; therefore it is easier to discount it, or excuse it away and hold to the belief that, afterall, vee pee was teaching "God's truths." It's time we reflect on HWA's religious roots, how he made use of Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control, how people were recruited into the WCG and even how he studied the techniques in Adolph Hitler's book, Mein Kampf! Many of these same methods and tactics are being used by "one true church" ministers to this very day; i.e., Philadelphia Church of God and Living Church of God. HWA and GTA believed they were "above the Law." Where in the Word of God are we taught such a concept? Let us not have a lack of understanding in holding to the idea that these men, whose life produced nothing but bad fruit, were ever "used by God" in any way whatsoever. HWA's teachings were a system of bondage that led to abuse and devastation of lives. Totalistic groups that follow in his footsteps are guilty of the same. "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God." ~ III John 11 Our prayer is that all who read this article will be discerning and that the Holy Spirit will reveal the freedom and peace which is found in Christ Jesus alone through His abundant grace. Information compiled by Exit & Support Network™ Updated October 30, 2004 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." ~ II Corinthians 11: 13

I miss reading her. :(

I know vee pee emphasized how absolutely precise and distinct the Greek language is/was, but was it really? I mean, we use "other" and "another" in any different ways and, according to most of what's been posted here, it appears to be the same case here. I remember reading somewhere but can't find it, that the Greek wasn't really as specific as we were led to believe. And weren't these books written many, many years after the fact and not really by the people they are attributed to? I'm also in the "what difference does it make?" camp. How does knowing how many were crucified with Christ make any difference in someone's life? What good does that knowledge do for anyone? *shrug*

Good point, Oak! If things are NOT right (and they aren't) and things are NOT being changed (and they aren't; it's only superficial and it's only in some areas) and people aren't being told the truth (and they aren't) - then it's not only NOT A GODLY MINISTRY, but it's not even the ministry they signed up for. People used to tell me that if my husband would choose a group of people (TWI) over me, his wife, then it wasn't a marriage at all. I see the people staying with TWI who have good hearts as being in the same boat I was in. Why wait for people to die? Why not face the fact that they are the ones training the future generation? Why not go to one of the many, many places that already really and truly are what you so desperately want TWI to be? That's where you will hear exciting and wonderful teachings; get to do fun things that you decide to do; meet people who care and love you UNCONDITIONALLY; and where you can ask questions and talk about things you want to talk about and disagree with things without being kicked out and your reputation being slandered.

I've been thinking a lot lately about how I justified staying involved and how good my ex is at justifying the actions of craig (he won't believe anything bad about vee pee). I still am not articulate enough to counter those justifications, but I sure do know how much wonderful life is outside the confinement of TWI and all its rules, legalism, boredom and lack of affection and lack of genuine friendships. WordWolf posted a link in another thread that I read with fascination and followed that link to another link: People Aren't Perfect My ex used to quote Boob Moneyhands "The ministry would be perfect if it weren't for people. People aren't perfect." This article handles that justification. This is an excerpt with the leaders' names replaced by the names we relate to. (The entire website, actually seems to be really good with good information on recovery - I still marvel at how many groups there are like TWI out there.) ************************************************ So what is the answer to "none of God's servants are perfect"? Bible students will notice that the qualifications for a servant of God are made clear in I Timothy 3:1-10 and Titus 1:6-8 (also I Peter 5:3). "A bishop then must be blameless...." (vs. 2) Even though any of God's servants will undoubtedly be blamed for things if they hold an office in the church, the important thing is that the accusation must not be found to be true. In vee pee’s case, craig’s case, rfr’s case, many accusations were leveled against them and found to be true. (The same can be said for an disproportionately large number of TWI leaders) "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (vs. 7) To have a "good report" is to have a good reputation. The words, "them which are without" refers to those who are outside the church. In other words, if a man has a bad reputation on the outside, he is not a candidate to be an overseer in the church. Such a man would end up causing shame to the name of Christ. vee pee and craig had a bad report from without the church. I suspect rfr does too. In I Timothy 4:11-12 the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy to be an example to the other believers in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, and in purity. And II Timothy 2:19 says, "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." "All that a minister has got is his character; mark that. If you take character away from a minister, you take away all that he has got." ~ Dwight L. Moody (1837-1899) Wasn't the Biblical David--and even Judas Iscariot--imperfect? This is another clever reasoning that is used in order to justify someone as being "used by God" and having "God's truths." First, it is the Bible that gives the requirements for an apostle (mentioned above). As far as Judas Iscariot being an apostle that "sinned," how many would want to follow him as an example? Judas could have gone to God or Jesus and repented. Did he? Faith and obedience go together. Judas did not have this faith. He even exemplified his greed by his protest against breaking the box of ointment, stealing from the money for the poor, bargaining to betray Jesus and then concealing his treachery. He was no longer a disciple after he betrayed Jesus. Judas revealed his true nature, and so do abusive, deceptive, authoritarian leaders that claim to "speak for God" but whose fruit testifies otherwise. Some also use David in the Bible as an "example of sinning." The answer is that David had a firm and unshakable trust in God. He was grieved when confronted with his sins and displayed strong efforts to return to God all the more loyally after his errors and transgressions. David's errors stand out because of their rarity. He sinned, but he didn't live in sin, and that is the difference. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (I John 3:7). Furthermore, David had a passion and love for God that is seldom found today, and when he sinned, the Bible shows he humbly confessed it and turned from that sin. Until any of us deal with the sin in our life, communication with God is cut off. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (I John 1:6). What about Peter? Some will say that Peter, who was the first Apostle to open the door to the Gentiles, made mistakes and was still used by God. Yes, but do we find the Bible glossing over those incidents? For instance, Peter and Barnabas, along with the other Jewish Christians, were severely reprimanded and rebuked publicly for hypocrisy (denying by their actions that both believing Jews and Gentiles were accepted equally on the basis of Christ's death and resurrection). The Apostle Paul tells us: "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Galatians 2:11). Regarding Peter and his companions, Paul said: "... I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (Galatians 2:14). We do not see this incident swept under the rug, nor do we see these men making this same error again. Why, then, are the sins of the founders of deceptive, exploitive groups always covered up and excuses made for them? "...The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." ~ II Timothy 2:19

That was awesome, Bagpipes! I'm so glad you have your joy back and I know how good that feels. I have tears of joy for you running down my cheeks. It was so scary to even consider leaving and others said over and over how much better their lives were after they left, but it seemed impossible for that to happen to me. I can honestly say my life is 10 kajillion times better than it was when I was involved with TWI. TWI has perfected the "If we don't talk about it, it never happened" mentality. They sugar coat issues with irrelevant Bible verses and tell people to just "trust God". There's no heart, no joy, no caring, no genuine love left in the heart of TWI. There are a few supporters who are good people, but they are so beaten down and taken advantage of that they can't see the forrest for the trees. It's sad, really.

LOL! I was at L*aurie Wierwille's bridal shower and one of the gifts from Mrs. Wierwille was a packet of doilies. I didn't get it at the time.... :unsure: Y'all have answered yet another pondering of mine.

This past week I went home for a funeral and stayed at my aunt's house. In true Southern fashion there was more food than there was room for in the kitchen, BUT - when I got up in the morning, eyes barely open, groggy and shuffled into the kitchen, I managed to find the coffee maker and then heard giggling behind me. Mama, sitting at the kitchen table, beaming with bright eyes and pink cheeks managed to squeak out between giggles the most scary words I've ever heard..... "Jeanette doesn't drink coffee". :o I started panicking and tearing the kitchen apart. How could someone NOT have coffee in their house??? I managed to find some ill fitting coffee filters (but would have used a paper towel if forced to) and some - GASP! - Decaf Generic Label Coffee. It could have tasted worse and it didn't fool my body, but at least I had the taste. We did get dressed quicker than usual so that we could stop by the store for me to get my fix before heading out for the day. The cook made some killer Valentine's Day Pancakes this morning. Would anyone care to join me?

(((RASCAL))) I completely understand. For what it's worth, you're an awesome Mommy and you have the world's greatest kids! Oak, I also didn't contemplate divorce and it never even entered my mind till the last year, but you already knew that. ;) When I started fantasizing about very bad things happening to one of us and hit rock bottom emotionally and mentally, that's when I realized I *had* to do something. I started with visits to a psychiatrist and therapist to help fix the things that were obviously wrong with *me*. It was clear that divorce was the only option when that made things worse at home (I was sharing deep, dark secrets about our marriage and TWI and that's a horrible thing). Even then, I wasn't the one who asked for the divorce, it was him. He said that I was an "unbeliever" and no longer "pleased to dwell" with him. Since I really was no longer "pleased to dwell" with him, we divorced and it was so amicable that people were shocked. However, that changed dramatically when he found out I was posting on GSpot. Socks, that was a wonderful post. Thank you very much! I particularly like these two lines. Two people pouring themselves into something together brings a beautiful picture to my mind. Would that I was an artist and could paint what I see. :) Shaz, when it's the right thing to do, it's like five thousand tons have been lifted off your shoulders, isn't it? I felt soooooo much better after he moved out that I felt guilty about it for a long time. Today I enjoy being single, but still hope to find Mr. Right out there someday. George, I wish I had something to say that would make you feel better. I don't though. I know you feel betrayed and hurt and angry and I suspect that's much like my ex felt/feels. He thought I was cheating on him and I wasn't. I just didn't want to be at home with him and his negative, angry attitude and TWIt brain. It hurt to be around him, so I did everything I could to not be at home when he was. I hated to hurt him, but it couldn't be helped. My heart still aches for the pain I know he's in, but I can't make his life better - only he can. I'm so sorry that you've been hurt, too.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GOEY!!! Your posts are always wonderful and logical. I couldn't begin to express how much you helped me on WayDale when I was merely lurking. I hope your day was as special as you are!

Happy Birthday!!!

I agree, Laleo. It's wrong, but it's a wrong that most likely won't be corrected given the steep decline in morals this country, heck THE WORLD, has been experiencing. I do have to give the dude props, though. I've talked to at least ten people personally who have been moved and motivated to make changes in their lifestyle because of having read the book. I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure what has compelled them to turn things around, but it was pretty powerful to them.

ZShot, thanks! That's the way it should work, imo. We grow together and we allow each other to grow in individual ways. That's how it should be anyway. We all change over the years and doing that with someone you love has got to be the best! You are so right-on, Shaz! Funny how things become important when it works in the other party's interest. Same with TWI. WN!, I think that my ex didn't really marry ME, but someone he thought he could make into who HE wanted them to be. After spending a lot of time with my family over the past year, I've learned a lot more about the changes in my personality, self-esteem and behavior than I could have ever learned on my own or in therapy and, after hearing their stories, I'm SOOOOOOO glad that I did finally get free from that commitment. Another reason why I will live with someone before getting married again. My family means the world to me and whoever I marry has to be able to see how wonderful they are and be able to take it and dish it out when it comes to their humor. MStar, I agree that every situation is unique. What works in one situation may not work in another. There *should* be a commitment and it should be made with the utmost of intentions of keeping their word. But when it's not right, the parties should be able to handle it according to what's best for them. Thanks for the input, y'all! I really do appreciate it!

Socks, be still my heart!, that was AWESOME!!! Thank you!!! Thank you, verry much! Glad to know you have most excellent taste in movies.

(((Hooner))) I got lucky and on my first try I found a therapist who has a Unitarian Universalist background, a degree in something religion-related from UC Berkely. I also gave him a copy of Steve Hassan's "Breaking the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" book. I have also read the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and been able to share from that with him, too. I would suggest looking at the names accepted on your insurance plan, calling their offices and asking to speak with the therapist. They may have to call you back if they're in a session, but they will (if they don't then that's also a sign they aren't the therapist for you. ;) ) If you have to drive a bit to get there, then that's okay. It's worth it to get good help. I picked my psychiatrist because he was involved in lots of different experiments and research. I discovered that by looking up all the psychiatrists online before calling one. Don't know if you're aware, but therapists are great for talk therapy and psychiatrists can prescribe medication. I go to both because I need both and my psychiatrist doesn't really do "talk therapy". Don't give up, Hooner! The right one is out there, you just have to look really hard sometimes because, well, we have situations that are just now coming to light in the therapy world. In the meantime, if you need/want more support and/or someone to vent to, please feel free to contact me anytime via PM or e-mail. I applaud you for seeking help!! It makes a BIG difference in my life and it's a smart person who gets help when they need it.

"virgin" panties? You just may be onto something there, Bliss! If I had that much money to throw away, I sure wouldn't be throwing it away on THAT! Personally, I'd prefer the TV and surround sound system, too.

Shellon, I remember first reading about that on WayDale, I think it was. Shocking!! I suppose that study was more informative and valuable in so many more ways than people ever expected, namely how NOT to do an experiment. Gives pause to the nature vs. nurture argument, too. I loved my Sociology classes but obviously didn't recognize a lot of the conformity and actions in my own life even after all those classes. I agree with Jim, too, on the TWI parallels. Seems like those who were in power became more demanding and more powerful in their own eyes and exploited that power while we just cowered and took it (well, I did, anyway). :blink: Edi, I remember reading about that. Didn't they make some people climb into boxes or something like that?

From another thread I didn't want to derail: That's what my ex-husband and I said, too. It wasn't till I wanted to leave TWI that I found out EVER meant "EVER as long as you obey TWI doctrine and legalistic rules and EVER with none of the kids I promised we would have and EVER as long as you kiss my feet and do whatever I say and EVER as long as you never do anything for yourself and EVER as long as you never spend any money on yourself since all OUR money goes to TWIt functions/classes/ABS, my police toys, my martial arts classes, my bicycle riding gear, my etc." I was living a real life "Sleeping With the Enemy" type life but without the physical abuse, only mental and emotional abuse. "Unalterable commitment" was bantered around and paraded about prior to our marriage but once I started questioning the teachings, stupid rules and idiotic policies like not investing in the stock market - not buying a house - giving more than 15% of our income - etc, things got real ugly real quick. After the lawsuits were announced and I really turned up the heat on how we were being treated and what we were being taught, things got even uglier. I tried FOR FIVE YEARS to keep my commitment and to make things work with my ex. At some point NO consideration of divorce EVER becomes detrimental to one's mental stability, physical health and overall wellbeing. I know. I've been there and thank God I'm not still there - I would have gotten out one way or another - divorce or suicide - I *think* I made the right choice. Sorry! This post struck a nerve. Can you tell? Sometimes I just get really angry about blanket statements like that. One solution does not work for everyone and to expect and hold people to those kinds of expectations are just wrong, imo. I feel guilty enough about my marriage not working without people telling me I broke some sacred commitment that I should have kept for my whole life. Nothing personal to the poster, it's just that wide sweeping comments like that really upset me.... climbing off my soapbox now :ph34r: Do you feel that marriage is an unalterable commitment no matter what? That people should not have the option of divorce EVER?

WWJLA, you shoulda seen it! There was sno cones flying through windows, pie filling going up noses, garter belts being used as sling shots...It was heading toward a distaster of biblical proportions!! Old Testament like - wrath of God kinda stuff - Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling. Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria. Thank goodness moddishwasher stepped in and used the extended kitchen sink sprayer to hose everyone down!!!