Belle

Dissenter here. I think it's ridiculous to make lay ministers like the WC on the field who are not full time, live without debt if it's necessary and manageable. Foxes may have holes and birds may have their nests, but WC ministers are NOT called to be the Son of God but TWI expected them to be. How does a minister truly minster to people if he's constantly having to move, constantly needing to buy things to take care of his family that he can't afford? If he's unable to stay in an area long enough to get to know the people and to build a reputation in the community? How can his life and the life of his kids be a witness to others if they are constantly uprooted, moving, changing schools and spending far more money on rent than they would on buying a house? What kind of job can you get when your resume shows you moving every few years? How much of a retirement nest egg are you able to build? How can he preach and promise "the more abundant life" if he lives in a tiny apartment with college dorm room furniture and a piece of trash car that the whole family has to share? He shouldn't live lavishly, but he should be allowed to buy a typical middle class house, drive safe, reliable automobiles and not rely on curb alerts for his furniture. TWI laughs at the poverty mindset of the Catholics, when, in reality, they live 10,000 times better than the average WC on the field (with the exception of full time WC). That's the primary reason I never wanted to go into the WC training. I did NOT want to live like a pauper and when one signs up for the WC that's what they are signing up for. I asked time and time again to tell us HOW to pay cash for a house. Moneyhands started avoiding me because he knew I was going to ask WHEN we were going to hear a retraction on the teaching that they knew was wrong. He knew I was going to ask HOW we were supposed to pay cash for a house since that's what TWI was saying we had to do. He didn't have an answer and he knew I already knew the answer given my Daddy's background (and our e-mail correspondence I've posted previously). Daddy taught me to pay cash for everything and to not live beyond my means. HOWEVER, cars and houses are NOT beyond our means when we buy within our means to pay them off. It's "managing your debt" that's the key to living within your means. When I bought my first car Daddy and I looked at how much money I made and how much my living expenses were. We considered the cost of insurance on a new car and the current interest rate for auto loans. From there we figured out how much of a monthly payment I could afford and, with that information, how much car I could afford to buy (not much!!) I went into the finance office armed with my negotiated price and knowing full well what my payment would be each month. When the finance officer tried to pull one over on me, I was able to fight back and get the proper price and finance charge. I was in debt for my car, but it was a debt I could easily and comfortably pay each month. Same thing for my house. I drove the car for 220,000 miles and during that time saved up enough money to pay cash for my next car. My house has appreciated nearly $200K in value since I bought it. TWIts will never experience this kind of financial freedom because TWI won't let them and because the TWIts continue to allow TWI to tell them what to do with their time, their money, their minds, their lives. It's so sad, really.

I think some people, when they hear mention of raisin holy hands, automatically jump to the stereotypical charistmatic church where people are dancing around and it is more like a circus. Some people have never visited churches where this may be done and don't realize that it can be done without the circus atmosphere and behavior (I refuse to use the d&o words). It's that "extreme" and "black & white thinking" that TWI ingrained in us that some people just can't get away from, I think. People danced before the lord and there are lots of scriptures about singing, dancing and praising God - who knows what it was really like when they did that. Raising hands, as Bliss pointed out, is a natural gesture for some people and it's stifling to feel like you have to stand still and motionless when you're really enjoying the music. I think musicians like to look out and see that people are really getting into it and that their music is reaching them. I'll spend some time in the blueletterbible today and see what I can find on that.

Awesome, Sunnyfla!! I'm so happy for you! I'm also glad that they are willing to sit down with you and address your concerns and issues. That's excellent! TWI only pretends to do that, most churches these days really do actually do that. I've also found that they're okay with you not agreeing with them wholeheartedly. They just want what's best for you at where ever you're at in your life.

Thanks, ex10! I will definitely Google that. :) I appreciate the direction. Thank you all for the posts! Definitely somethings - great things - to think about and look at with my friend. She took me off guard when she mentioned that - it was totally new to me. LOL!

Rhino, I think this calls for a bottle of wine and bionic gerbils for my pea brain, but if you don't mind, I'd like to play devil's advocate here..... I don't think we can accurately & consistently measure this Lord gravity force with the formulas the Bible presents. We don't always get answer to prayers. God doesn't always keep his "promises" that we read in the Bible. People throw in all these other variables and justifications for WHY it doesn't "seem" as though the Bible is telling the truth and accurately or consistently measuring life. (Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers ----- BUT that's not what the Bible says. It says IF you believe then ye SHALL receive, and that's just not the case.) I'm hesitant to believe the Bible is the word and will of God just on the word of some men who were in a position of power to make up all the rules as they went along - whom we know rewrote history and destroyed those things they didn't necessarily agree with and those things that gave people individual, personal power instead of subjecting them to rulers (political and religious). Actually, Mark, :) Your comments on the Unified Field Theory (which is waaaaayyyyyy beyond my understanding) seem to be reflected in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. I haven't read it, but the "Cliff Notes" version talks about how Jesus came and gave us holy spirit and how we have all this power within us and how we're all connected one to another and everything we do impacts the lives of others and, therefore, how important it is to remember that in our day to day life. It's a more mystical, spiritual and personally empowering book on an individual level, which would have been very intimidating and threatening to those looking for absolute power over others. Again, I fully acknowledge that you are light years ahead of me in your understanding of the churches and religious history. I'm trying to catch up and sincerely appreciate your input.

All I can say is, "I'm jealous" :D

Was anyone else majorly disappointed in the Superbowl Commercials this year? The only one I liked was the one with the cube farms - one full of monkeys and one full of jack@sses. Thankfully I work with monkeys and only have to visit the jackfoot farm occasionally.

The church I currently attend is not charismatic by any stretch of the imagination, but there are a few people in the congregation (both contemporary and traditional services) who raise their hands. Even the pastor was doing it this Sunday during an awesome song we were singing. I felt odd and found it very disturbing at first, but upon getting to know a few of the people and learning some of the songs better, I actually think it's pretty darn cool - not for me - but pretty darn cool and it "fits" with those personalities. I just kinda rock & tap my foot, but some people just stand there, some of the younger kids actually dance in place - it's really great to see people moving physically to the music comfortably. It feels good to get excited about something! Like Bliss mentioned we raise our hands at football games and all kinds of other things. I don't typically do that - I usually jump up and down and "high five", so maybe that's why I don't feel the urge to raise my hands in church but to sway and bounce. :D It's sooooo cool to be able to worship the way we want to and are comfortable doing! TWI stifled so much in us and made us little way-bots - it's nice to be my own Belle-bot enjoying the company of Bliss-bot, Socks-bot, ex10-bot, Mark-bot, Dooj-bot, Moony-bot and all the other unique and individual "bots" around here.

Vee pee and craiggers were not allowed to make mistakes on teachings NOR on the metaphors or other examples they used in their teachings - if some TWIt questioned it (and it was wrong) then the problem then became on the TWIt's understanding of the teaching/example and not the teaching/example itself. We seem to have the same problem here. :) It seems to me that there is no way to show someone that the word of God is the will of God without using the word of God. Therefore, it's a "take it on faith" or "just believe God" sort of thing. Blind faith doesn't sit well with me - especially knowing about the history of what books were allowed, what books may not have been and who was responsible for making those decisions. We hear the excuse all the time that men are fallible but I don't understand why it's so hard for people who believe the Bible to be 100% God's word and completely inerrant tend to overlook that fallibility when it comes to the composition of the Bible, yet use that excuse quite frequently when it's convenient for other discussions. :blink:

This bears repeating. Excellent post, T-Bone!! Excellent!! Gspot IS a great place to think out loud and to toss ideas back and forth. Some people are threatened by that and when they get to be annoying to me, I put them on the "ignore" list and their posts don't even show up. :) I like that! A lot of churches these days have forums and groups where people can bring their questions or just get together to study topics of interest - churches encourage this kind of thing because they see where it is necessary to meet the needs of some of the people - not all are interested. I haven't thrown all my questions or concerns at the leadership in the church I've been visiting, but I do get to have dinner with two of the pastors in April (because of my schedule) and I'll get to ask them about some of the things I've been pondering, some of which I've posted here, too. I'm looking forward to it and I've heard that they will gladly set aside time with me further if I'd like. The small group I started their "Forty Days of Purpose" meetings with went off on our own tangent because I was really put off by the performance based religion that that book promotes. The girls in my group agreed with my concerns and took it to the leadership with their blessing to continue in any format and topics that we felt were good for the group. You'd NEVER see that happen in TWI. We were allowed to think and do things on our own! ^_^

Sunnyfla, My parents encouraged me to "find a church home" when I left TWI. I was in no way ready or willing to look for one. I, however, wanted to honor my parents wishes and decided to visit a few just so I could tell them that I had looked and couldn't stand them for one reason or another. <_< I was raised Southern Baptist so my first visit was to a Southern Baptist Church and that was a total joke - I don't have enough time to elaborate, but I will say that craiggers would have been proud of the preacher that day. I visited a Presbyterian Church that I really enjoyed, but not one person spoke to me even after visiting several times - I didn't want to be "love bombed" but I didn't want to be ignored either. It was also a little smaller than I was comfortable with and they only sang "modern" songs (I like the old hymns). I had worked with a gal who spoke glowingly about her church and her minister and was a little turned off because she was so involved with the church, but after visiting several other churches I decided to hunt her down and "try" her church. I did and went to the "Celebration" service with her, which is their contemporary music service. I also visited their "traditional" service and got to hear the angelic choir and sing my favorite old hymns. I was looking for some reason to dismiss this church as well. I really wanted an excuse to not go back, but I honestly didn't find one and when I thought about it, I really did enjoy being there. I like the people and I like that they don't think they have a corner market on the truth. I like that they do things with other churches and other denominations. I like that they have enough activities for someone to find something they would like to do but without the pressure to do so. I truly does cultivate "auxano" growth on an individual level. I actually like the messages each Sunday, too. :) Doctrinally, I could certainly find things I disagree with. But, honestly, does ANYONE agree 100% with 100% of their church doctrine? The things that I'm still questioning and working out in my head - the things I may disagree with them on - the "other" things I study - none of those are an issue unless I make it so. Besides that, my thoughts on those subjects could change - some are doubtful to change, but "never say never" as Mama always says. :D I'm learning to not be so judgemental and to be more tolerant of others' beliefs and still be able to enjoy their company and what they DO have to offer. It's so much easier and free-er and more peaceful to do so, imo. Mark always has great posts and GT's question is bang on, imo. Why do you want to find a church? What do you want in a church? Are you looking for needs and companionship that can be found outside of a church? There's just lots of questions and each person's answers are unique to that individual/family. Good luck to you! Let us know how the search goes.

Us too! The independently wealthy in our area were promoted around and held up to us as examples of living debt free - but most people did not know that these couples had huge inheritances and trust funds. Dirty rotten scoundrels misleading us and making people feel like crap for not living up to the impossible standards set by TWI since "they" had.

Velly velly intellesting, T-Bone! Thank you for sharing that tidbit of information with us. :) The more I learn about vee pee, the more angry I am that I was ever involved with that outfit. I agree that your letter and the articles should be added to our documentation of the sex, lies and videotape we have of vee pee and on TWI in general. If I lived close enough, I'd gladly look the stuff up, but, alas, the microfiche machine is too far from Orlando.

I started this here to avoid derailing GT's thread. From TWI's website under the "who we are" section: emphasis is mine - This paragraph alone shows how 'out of touch' TWI is with what goes on in churches these days. All the churches I have visited now offer all kinds of classes, study groups and provide information for their members who ARE interested in these things. They are by no means mandatory, required or even promoted other than to let the congregation know that they offer such studies. A newcomer to TWI's site reads that paragraph and laughs because they HAVE been taught the things that TWI says people haven't been taught. (I know, I've asked a few non-TWIt friends of mine for their opinions on the site). Just reading the entire section on who they are I'm struck by how "odd" the language sounds now that I don't talk and think in TWI-speak.... "that food required....so that he may renew his mine...thereby manifest..." "hungering and thirsting" "practical application of the Bible" "set forth.....workman of the Word...rightly dividing....blessed" "fully persuaded" "Biblical students....discipline themselves" "words of edification and comfort" "ever seeking....appropriate the promises...more abundant life" "manifest power from on high" "freely avails" They really should qualify that statement to let people know that it's only used by TWI throughout the world where they have fellowships. *********************** I had thought about those things this week-end after attending a local church that I have visited on a number of occasions and really enjoy. They have a mission statement and it is the enthusiastic refrain at the end of service every Sunday: To know the love of Jesus Christ and pass it on! They have a vision statement: To impact Maitland, Central Florida and the World with the message of Jesus Christ by meeting the needs of children and youth They actually follow through on these things by participating in the Coalition for the Homeless and so many other ways to give and serve that someone can find something they might be interested in, but if someone doesn't want to participate in anything, they don't feel bad for not doing so. Next Sunday starts "Lakeside Vespers" on the lake where the church is. They are going to have musical concerts each Sunday starting with a "Pure Jazz" theme. There will be a show tunes theme, a Broadway Musical theme, etc. This is one way they provide entertainment and a way for the members to enjoy themselves and, hopefully, bring someone. It just has SOOOOOOOO much more to offer than TWI could ever imagine and with churches doing things like this, there really isn't the need and appeal for TWI-like organizations as perhaps there was in the past.

Happiest of Birthdays, Seth!!

LOL, Chas! Ro*tel is tomatoes spiced and canned - you can find them next to the canned diced tomatoes in the grocery store. They are totally awesome!! If you like spicy food, substitute them for any recipe that calls for tomatoes. Rotel Dip is the most common, most popular use for them. 1 lb. block of Velveeta Cheese - 1-2 cans of Rotel tomatoes (I use 1 can extra hot and 1 can regular, but drain one of the cans) - microwave till the cheese is melted. Serve with chips, veggies, on scrambled eggs, on sandwiches, on spaghetti, on tacos, on chicken.... To jazz it up - add 1 lb. ground sausage/beef or both.

That's PRECISELY why I want to raise my kids, if I ever get to have some, in a small town! I hated it then, but would want my kids to not be able to get away with anything like I couldn't. :D Sometimes no matter how good a parent someone is, the kids will be total brats. BUT, sometimes those church-going ladies are the worst mothers. My ex had more trouble with those mothers who are at the church every time the door is open than he did with the drug dealing mothers. He would get a call about a runaway kid or arrest a kid and try to get in touch with the mother so that the child wouldn't have to go to the juvenile jail. So many times the mother couldn't be bothered because she was in a hurry to "get to church". :unsure: OR the parents were too "soft" and didn't discipline the child because they were overboard on the "love" aspect of their church. Without boundaries kids will get into trouble and there are so many parents who spend more time in church meetings and on church committees than they do with their kids - then they wonder why they have such awful children. I'm NOT saying that's what this mother is like, but the story reminds me of these parents...

Happy, Happy Birthday, Shellon!! I hope it was as wonderful as you are! I found the perfect t-shirt for you:

We're having a cold front down here in Orlando, too! It was 46 degrees yesterday and they say it could get as cold as 30 degrees this week!! :ph34r: I like it, though, because we just turn off the AC and until it gets to the 40's I just open all the windows and screen doors in the house. No snow though, unless you get fake snow at one of the attractions down here.

Well, I just got the "new" way rag and the first article is by John Reynolds and it's the exact same STS teaching he did shortly before I left. When I get some time I'll type up some of the articles for y'all.

Someone that I know keeps telling me that Jesus Christ has not gone anywhere, but is here on earth building His church. I can't find anything to support this theory, when I ask this person about it, they only say that, that is what Jesus told Peter. That he would build his church. I find this difficult to understand, but, perhaps someone here knows? Hopefully....Bueller, Bueller? Anyone? Anyone??

Ex, I'll show up!! AND I'll even bring the Rotel!! :D There's never a lack for cans of Rotel in my house. Ron, I"ma gonna have to go lookin' for some of that BBQ Sauce! Sounds DEEEE-LISH! I also want to try some of Ron's Buffalo Hump Chili, but only if I can have some made by the chef himself. ;) (I'll pass on the borscht, though.) Themex, LOL! That's how ya do it!! And if that don't work just make......reservations! :) Ah, George, check out CookingLight.com or the magazine - they have lots of great, healthy good tasting food. They do a great job of substituting flavor, spices and such for the fat & calories.

Vixen and I wish you a very merry Happy Birthday!

I didn't see this either! :blink: I hope it was wonderful! I've always enjoyed reading your posts and I LOVE your, "Not thick, just impenetrable" signature. :D Happy Belated Birthday!! *edited cause I kaint spayul*

I remember hearing craiggers yelling about losing 75% of the ABS-ing followers during the "fog years" as he called them. I never heard of POP till I found WayDale. I did know that J Lynn and C Geer were curse words and "they who should not be named" type people, but that was all I knew about it. Emporia was sold long before 1993, I believe. I don't remember ever even hearing about Emporia, but I went to the AC in 1996 at Rome City and it wasn't sold till around 1999 or 2000. They made Dr. Don and Wanda give up their home and go love at Rome City all alone till it was sold and that took YEARS. So much for the "more abundant life", eh? I wondered how "abundantly" TWI was living and how much "fruit" there must be for them to have to be selling off such a huge location, but I didn't really know until craig got caught with his pants down. I also remember the push to witness to those white collar, middle class folk with teeth, cars and jobs. He used the apostles witnessing to political leaders, Lydia - the seller of purple, and other examples like that in the Bible to show us how that's who we were supposed to be witnessing to. The problem was, those folks are too smart to get involved with a group who is going to tell you to sell your home, give them more than 15% of your income and stockpile all kinds of supplies should the world end New Years Eve 1999. Most people could see straight through the b.s. after coming to just one meeting - at least all the people I brought did. They also expressed concern for me after being exposed to TWI. Would that I had listened to them sooner!