Belle

The value of the counterfeit is increased by its likeness to the original. vee pee knew this and that's why he packaged his stolen works the way he did. He's fooled some people into thinking he was the original and those people have invested time, money and their lives in vee pee's false ministry. To consider that it was all done for naught is to admit they were fooled, they were naive and it's pulling the foundation out from under them. vee pee and TWI spoon feeds people and tells them what to think, how to think, what to do with their lives, who to spend time with, how to spend their money and all the other decisions that the rest of the world enjoys making for ourselves. To face the prospect of actually having to think for yourself, actually having to revisit doctrine and consider sources outside of TWI-speak is threatening, scary and just plain unappealing to many. It's easier to take TWI's standard route of poking your head in the sand and pretending that you can't see or hear anything wrong and no one can prove to you that you're wrong if you refuse to talk to them. That's why the isolation technique of cults and controlling, abusive relationships is so effective. You can't be wrong if you don't listen to the conflicting information.

Oh, Chas, my heart cringes reading about your brother - my brother and my mother were the targets of my ex. My little brother is a bleeding heart liberal with lots of "Eastern" philosophical views on life due to spending so much time in Taiwan and travelling China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and other countries in that area - mostly areas where white American men are NOT welcome. He was so friggin' rude to them and resented anytime my family did something nice for me. He would gladly accept their expensive gifts and paid vacations so they could spend time with us, but if they wanted to do something just for me? Forget it. Not allowed. I think he was jealous because he never got that kind of love, treatement and gifts from his family - and couldn't even spend time with them after Moneyhands told him that his dad was possessed and he needed to cut communication with the whole family. Thank goodness our families realized that we weren't ourselves and are able to forgive us and move on. The Highway, that sounds like my ex, too! He was a blast when we were dating and when he didn't have his TWI-face on, he could be a lot of fun. I wonder if it's the responsibility that TWI puts on the husband being ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that caused them to snap into being @$$holes... My ex looked great on paper - he did do the laundry, wash the dishes, vacuum the house, take care of the yard, keep up with maintenance on the cars, etc. He was a dream husband in that regard, but he was a police man and home two-four days a week all day, too. It's just that, like you said, I was one more thing to take care of - yet another responsibility. There wasn't any gentleness, kindness, loving, attention given to me unless it was to point out something I had done wrong or needed to "work on". It was tough doing laundry for the first time in eight years, but I'd much rather do my own laundry than have to live with the Ice Man and his constant reminders of how inadequate I am.

Sounds like TWI to me. IF they were an upstanding, ethical "Christian" organization, this situation would have been handled differently and those leaders would no longer be responsible for pastoring God's flock. You chalk it up to individual, local leadership, but individual local leadership is allowed to continue by the top level leadership, no?

Since allen has been taking notes from Mike on how to change every friggin' thread he posts on to being all about him and the whole topic has been shot to #e11: It's okay for allen to call people names, follow them around the boards just so he can attack their beliefs, but GAWD FORBID someone challenge him on HIS beliefs. He can't even have a normal, civilized discussion - it always comes down to namecalling, attacking, changing the thread to be about him and denigrating the subject while never contributing anything of value to the conversation. This, folks, is who is representing the TWI-offshoots - THIS is who lurkers see as representative and ambassadors for the offshoots, especially those that affiliate with allen's. Is THIS the example you really want them to see? Is this REALLY how all of you think? You want people like this and allen and the others like him representing your image? That's why so many people stay in TWI - why change names when you can get the same treatment where you are? It just feeds the TWIt myth that "there's nothing better out there". The elitism must be stifling and suffocating unless you're the one getting to eat off the china plates all the time. edited to add: this is my last comment on allan. I have requested that he be censored by the moderators and would like to request that others do the same if you find him as offensive as I have. His new handle is being added to my ignore list as well.

And then get in trouble for always having sick kids. :huh: So many times I felt sorry for those with little kids and then I was jealous of them because those kids were always a good excuse for NOT doing something. I remember talking so several moms once and they all shared how they would get a call after meeting after meeting to scold them for the behavior of a child. Nevermind the fact that so many "children's fellowships" were cancelled and hardly ever scheduled - nevermind the fact that the meetings were just as long and boring for the adults - nevermind the fact that the leadership doing all the yelling had no children and had only been married a year or two - or had no kids living at home anymore..... <_< They all admitted to apologizing as soon as they could get a word in edgewise so that, hopefully, the yelling would stop and they could get back to their child before said child started making any noise the leadersh1t might overhear. "How to" ministry?? - NOT!!

:blink: His parents must be so proud! I wonder how many people they have kissing their feet in the UK. Have they actually been out witnessing? Have they got a class together? What happens when there are no kids to sign up for the class and they have to - gasp - find fresh blood?

((((Roy)))) You are a very bold, kind, gentle soul with great words for people. :) Thank you for posting here.

Patriot, this is an excellent thread thank you for taking the time to start it! I called TWI this morning and the bookstore lady, Ruth, said that they are still selling his book. TWI wouldn't have the buildings it has, the property it has and the savings that it has if it weren't for THEM going into debt themselves. This documents it and they can't cover it up. They can quit selling the book, but the damage has been done. I wonder if they'll make everyone burn it on "Uncle Harry Day" to get rid of the evidence. Or was UHD another one of those "old wineskins" that they got rid of under craiggers regime? I can't remember, but I don't think we celebrated it any more after the early 90's. Thanks for typing up all these quotes from the book. I don't have mine anymore, so it was good to refresh the memory and to see in black & white the utter hypocracy.

This, I can agree with. The problem, as I see it, is that when organizations start talking about giving - they're talking about giving money and giving that money to THEM, the church, group, org, etc. THAT, I disagree with vehemently. Why? For one thing, that's not how I was brought up and it's not how the most "blessed" people I know give. They give in so many OTHER ways and to so many OTHER people - mostly on an individual basis to people in need. My parents are prime examples of this - I think our very own Galen is also a super example of this. The whole time I was growing up we had some college student living in our guest bedroom. It was always, "Adrienne's Room", "Vernon's Room", "Roman's Room", etc. It wasn't really a guest bedroom very much at all. These were kids who could afford school and books by working full time, but couldn't afford to pay that, rent, food, etc. also. They rented a room from us and I seriously doubt they ever paid for rent or groceries. Roman was a football player on a full scholarship. He lacked two classes to graduate and couldn't afford them because he was one of ten kids with a widowed mother who was doing well just to make ends meet. My parents insisted that he stay with us that summer and finish his college degree. I don't know if my parents paid for those classes or not - they never talked about WHAT they were giving, HOW MUCH they were giving or even the fact that they WERE giving at all.....it was just part of life and they were so happy to have young kids around all the time. They give of their time and are not home much because of that, but they thoroughly enjoy it and THEY choose where to spend their time and it's usually NOT with the church although they do their share of giving there as well. My parents are very adamant about the importance of giving, but giving in YOUR OWN WAY - be it, housing, time, words of praise and encouragement, meals, things.....whatever YOU have to give. They do not tithe to the church - they give money to the church, but they consider the other ways they give just as important, if not moreso because those ways directly impact lives. THAT'S what I think about giving and what I think delights God. There are plenty of examples in the Bible to suggest that, too. Giving couldn't and shouldn't be measured by anyone. What and how I give is my business - between me and God and that's nobody else's business.

I dunno, the fact that his legs are hairy enough for shaving them to be a big deal sounds to me like there's not really anything to be concerned about. Besides that, athletes where friction and wind resistance is a big deal actually do shave.....Lance Armstrong, anyone? What's funny to kids isn't always funny to adults and what's innocent and no biggie to kids is sometimes offensive and alarm sounding to adults. Like Ron said, it's the total silliness of seeing some macho male authority figure decked out in what is a totally humiliating getup is what's funny to the kids and it's only a one time thing - it's not like this guy goes out of his way to make this the "prize" for every challenge, is it? We had this type of "reward" when I was in high school one year - it was hilarious and the talk of the school for the longest time. It was truly motivating and exciting to us. The next year it was the pie in the face reward and the year after that it was the football coaches having their heads shaved. (We went to the state championship all four years I was in high school and that's where these ideas came from) It sounds harmless to me, but, then again, I have no kids of my own. :) I could be totally out of line here.

When I first left TWI and my husband left me I had some really wild, vivid dreams repeatedly. It was really disturbing so I looked into dream interpretation and discussed it with my therapist. They say that we are the best ones to interpret our dreams, but that people who study dreams can help with a lot of the symbolism that things CAN mean and then we have to look at how those meanings might fit into our lives to really be the ones to come up with the meaning. I also had lots of dreams about going to the bathroom. Trying to get to the bathroom and running into all kinds of obstacles....getting to the bathroom and having people looking in windows, doors missing, etc. Going to the bathroom ourselves and things associated with that are representative of getting rid of old habits, thought patterns and, possibly beliefs. I was "dumping" a lot of TWI logic and teachings (still am) and that's what these dreams represented mostly. I had terrible, awful dreams of running through dark, long, dirty alley ways and being mob attacked by my ex, the Moneyhands and others in TWI who were instrumental in the abuse I experienced. I had dreams about ants swarming everywhere and coming through a hole in the ceiling in droves. Tons of ants everywhere!! Then, like a huge vacuum cleaner at the top of the house, it started sucking the ants out. The images were incredibly vivid and wild looking! I found out that dreaming of a house that's yours represents you - your body, thoughts, mind, life....those ants were annoying little issues (TWI issues) and that there was a huge hole in my life because of TWI and it was letting all these petty little issues take over my life. The vacuum cleaner (to me) represented leaving TWI and all these things getting sucked out of my life. The rest of them I took care of with ant spray and a good friend there to help spray me down. It all made sense to me and, once I made sense of it, the dreams started coming less frequently and eventually stopped. They weren't as disturbing once I started learning the representation and symbollism. It was pretty cool learning about it, too. :) I have a good friend who helped me work these things out and he does dream interpretation for free in exchange for anonymously posting your dream and his analysis on his website. He only posts them if they are accurate and he discusses it with you to make sure he got it right. There are several of mine up on his site. If you want more information PM me and I'll give you his information.

and therein lies the rub, Chas. You allow people to disagree without being disagreeable. You do not pass judgement on those who disagree with you. You do not label, call names, follow people around the boards attacking them and their beliefs. ;) You have a mature, healthy respect for others and their rights to believe what they want and their right to share their thoughts here at the Gspot.

Then you haven't tried. :) I have and was met with respect and a genuinely nice, eduational conversation. They know that 100% of their congregation doesn' agree with 100% of what they teach and they are okay with that - unlike TWI where you're excommunicated if you don't agree and submit details of your life and proof that you do. My friend, Mark, has been exemplary in his character and representation of the Catholic church, which is more than I can say for most (not all) of the people on here who still hold to TWI doctrine.

Dang, Chas!! If I didn't know better, I'd think we married the same guy. I now tell people I was "Sleeping With the Enemy" - I'm no Julia Roberts, but I sure feel like the wife she portrayed in the movie. My ex was a neat-freak and "cleanliness is next to godliness" - our house has to be able to pass a white glove test at any moment. I am sooooo not a neat person! This was a major struggle for me - in addition to cooking, cleaning, working full time, doing all the shopping and all the TWI demands. I have absolutely no idea how married women with kids managed in TWI. I feel so sorry for them!! Meister was a walking Bible, like your husband. He was definitely a "company man" and when Moneyhands or any other leader said jump, he jumped as high and as long as he could. He expected the same of me. AND for me to react that way to his requests, too. As a result, he took everyone else's word over mine. He obeyed instruction from leadership unquestioningly and when i would say that was too much of a demand on our time - I was too tired or otherwise "buck the system" - he would scold, belittle and shame me into "obeying". He was definitely a wimp when it came to TWI leaders. I remember one particular incident where we were fed up (both of us) with the mis-information, lack of information and just plain disregard for us by our HFC (a WC-fixin' to be and roomie with the Moneyhands). I told her what both of us had been thinking for quite some time - after TWO YEARS of pleading to not have to be assistant HFC's anymore - and it wasn't pretty. We were called into a "confrontation" session with this gal and our BC's. Of course it was the three of them against the two of us. On the way over there, we agreed that we were right, we were fed up with the way we were being treated and that it was wrong. Well, as soon as we got there, he started staring at the floor - looked like he was gonna get sick - turned pale as the snow and never looked up or said a word till he apologized and looked like he was going to puke on their carpet. They then started in on me. I tried to defend us, but it was just no use. Now it was the whole room against me. I have never in my life been so disappointed in someone. This was MY HUSBAND - MY SAFE PLACE - MY SUPPORTER - MY HELPMEET - MY BEST FRIEND - MY PARTNER - MY TEAMMATE - MY BODYGUARD - this was the biggest letdown I can ever remember in my whole life. Everything I did that was the least bit questionable was quickly reported to someone - anyone. Of course, it was to HELP me to be the "woman of God" that he KNEW I could be. <_< When I would get yelled at for something and try to stand up for myself, I, too, was accused of "not submitting" - of being stubborn (and "stubborness is just as bad as witchcraft, doncha know?) and "just like my mother". I was acting out from under his protection and anything could happen to one of us because of ME. He's a cop, so he was afraid I was going to get HIM killed in the line of duty with my disobedience. It's sickening to think about the compromises I made to "keep peace" when I was really being kept under his thumb. As a wife, I was beaten about the head and shoulders DAILY with verses about submitting and how I wasn't yaddy, yaddy, yaddy.... I could do no right. When I did do something right, it wasn't quite good enough or with the "right kind of heart" - HUH?Once I shared with him how stressful it was trying to live up to his expectations and, with the example of my housecleaning never being "good enough". He just looked at me, all confused about why I would be stressed about that, and said, "But you NEVER get the house very clean. Why is it bothering you now?" Maybe because he always made a point of telling me how it never got clean enough when I did it??? I had to load the dishwashwer the correct way (all spoons go together, all forks go together, etc.) - I had to turn the coffee pot handle "just so" in the morning and line the handle of that up with the handle to the coffee mug AND have the spoon on the same angle too. I had to vacuum so the tracks were "just so" on the carpet and then rake all the carpet tracks out with the "indoor" rake (he finally dropped that one). He ended up doing a lot of things around the house just because I never did them well enough. It got to where I didn't trust myself to do anything right. I couldn't make the smallest, most insignificant decision without running it by him. I can't really blame him totally, though. This is what he was taught in TWI and he is the ultimate student. It's the example he had all around him. J1m Densm*re was up a creek when his wife, B@bette had surgery one year. He didn't know how to clean the house, make his own coffee, cook his own meals, scratch his onw foot, etc. We had to give him a one month training course on taking care of himself because he never had to do that before. He was used to being waited on hand and foot. Same thing with Moneyhands. He's really going to be up a creek if he ever has to function without Dooty around. They were still teaching this stuff just two years ago, Chas. I suspect Boob is still eating off his china and telling Dooty how much she can spend on curtains for the new flat in the UK.

Welcome, Richard! As promised, here are the fresh baked cinnamon rolls today. Please, help yourself. :) I don't know a thing about John Hendricks, but I do know a bit about TWI and I would never get involved with a group that bases their doctrine on the things taught by TWI, but that's a personal decision. You may agree with the things they teach, believe and stand for. I don't like the way they treat people. I don't agree with how they run their business - and yes, it IS a business. Things I would ask: - How does VP Wierwille and TWI doctrine fit into what they teach? - Do they open their financial records to the membership? If not, why? - How do they handle people who disagree with the doctrine they teach? - How do they handle questions about the organization and doctrinal issues? - What do they teach on money, debt, the tithe, being saved, speaking in tongues? - How much do they get involved with people's lives? - How often is one expected to attend their meetings? - What are the requirements for leadership? - What are the checks and balances in place to avoid just one or three people making all the decisions? - What are the "rules" (spoken and unspoken) for membership? - Do they even have "membership"? If not, run - run away very quickly! In general, I would read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and I would keep my eyes open, my brain in gear and ask lots of questions..... I do that with every church/religious group I visit. I've found one I like, respect and trust, but I'm not going to be lulled into sleep or busied into not being able to think again - not intentionally, anyway. ;)

You have some good points here, Chas. We did worship the men and that is precisely, imo, why TWI fits the definition of a cult. Heck, even today, there are still people who worship vee pee and craiggers. Many more who worship vee pee and insist he could do no wrong when it comes to teaching the Bible. They forget that doctrinal error leads to practical error and we have tons upon tons of practical error. That is, unless vee pee was wrong about doctrinal error leading to practical error, but....naw.....vee pee never taught anything wrong.

Raf, I think this should have been posted in the "How to p1ss off a Wierwillite" thread. :D

I'm sorry but I'm ROFLMAO! I can hear my mother saying, "Never say never." and here I am whining because "they don't make 'em like they used to" :huh: Marathon Chocolate/Caramel Bars Tab (but I recently found some) Strawberry Coke Dial-a-Lash Mascara Strawberry Shortcake Toys and I can't find Raggedy Ann and Raggedy Andy stuff anywhere either. NOT that I need it now, but I'm hoping one day in the future to be wanting to have some....

Very cool, Dad! You must be busting buttons with pride! Thanks for sharing this super news with us!

Awwwww, y'all aren't fooling anyone! I know you're just loveable teddy bears, men. But don't worry, your secret is safe with me. ;) But here's a teddy bear for you anyway. Just don't tell Mama on me.

Bush Fails To Prevent East Coast Blizzard Minorities Hit Hardest by Brian Williams NBC 02/12/06 As President Bush and his staff cowered in the White House, the snow continued to pile up on the many poor and African American victims who could not afford to get out of town or to safety in Florida. Crucial supplies of blankets, hot cocoa, popcorn and dark rum, so essential to surviving the stress of any major snowstorm, lay in stores undelivered. "Where is the government? I need my sidewalk shoveled so I can get out to buy my danged lottery tickets!" said one D.C. resident from his living room. "Why are we wasting money in Iraq when we could be spending it here on me?" Progressive blogs blasted the President for his inaction. "We find the timing terribly suspicious, just as the Domestic Spying hearings kick into high gear, what happens? A major northeast Blizzard. Why now?" wrote one blogger. Hearings into the Blizzards' effect on hearings are almost a certainty. Howard Dean has suggested he will call for an investigation once his new medications kick in and John Kerry took a break from the sporting activities of the glamorous super-rich in some exotic locale (random choice: Ice Sailing in Finland) to call for new legislation outlawing snowstorms. "The Republican Congress has dropped the ball once again. I have always been a staunch supporter of anti-snow legislation, except for certain locations where I ski. Snow has no business on our roads and the President and Congress knows that." Calls for impeachment over "SnowGate" as some are calling it already are mounting as deeply as the snow itself, and what will be discovered underneath will prove to have a truly chilling effect on the Republicans, as the inevitable thaw proceeds. Or something like that. More breaking news...... Al Sharpton wants an investigation as to why snow is ALWAYS white. Cheney has stock in Tru-Value Hardware. Do you have any idea how many SNOW SHOVELS they sold today to the unsuspecting consumer? I demand to know why FEMA has been so late in reacting to this storm. THEY KNEW IT WAS COMING! And yet they failed to have crews in place to fix the electricity as soon as it went off. It just shows that Bush and the Republicans just don't care about the people in the N.E. The Senate needs to investigate this with administration people under oath. I'll bet that the great junior senator from N.Y. has opened the doors of her home to all of the heatless poor of her neighborhood and is busy baking cookies for them while her husband applies body heat to the nearly frozen teen-aged girls. *******************************************************************

LOL! Mo, your post reminds me of the old saying, "Those who can "do" and those who can't teach". TWI sure did make good teachers, didn't they?

That's not it at all TLB. :) This area just doesn't get much action. Some of the new people don't make it down here and a lot of people don't want to share their story. Others feel they post enough in the other forums that all their posts combined make up their story. It's nothing personal. ;)

Well, the sheep in my computer must be bionic 'cause I can't get a one of 'em! <_< I back-tracked on the link to the smiling test, though, and got 18 of 20 of those right. I had to do something to sooth my bruised ego.

That's so true, TopoftheWorld! I signed up for a program where I'll be meeting with a gal each week and during the course of our second meeting I had told her that part of my being there stemmed from an abusive marriage and involvement with an abusive religious cult. She was really nice and we talked about it for a little bit, then she said she wasn't going to put the cult stuff down because if I had to meet with someone else one week for some reason, she didn't want them to pre-judge me. It's sad, but when people hear that sort of thing, they do react in different ways. I have no qualms talking about it now and have actually helped some people because of my unabashed way of mentioning it. One girl's parents were very high up leaders in a different religious group, but her mom sexually molested her for her whole life. She had only discussed that with one other person, her girlfriend, and told me all about it and her problems reconciling her parents actions with their elite position within the religious group.