Belle

It's only been just over a year for me and I still have those moments. I highly recommend counselling. If price is an issue, find one that will work for pro bono - there are some who do that. There is also community counselling available for a smaller price and some therapists will work within your budget. Mine is covered by my insurance and I only have to pay a copay. Depending on my budget I will go every week or once a month. If I could afford it, I'd definitely go every week. Like you, Bagpipes, just when I think I'm handling everything just fine, I have a meltdown. I had one on Friday and Saturday, in fact. I got free tickets to Daytona for the Kissable 300 and the Daytona 500 - THE DAYTONA 500!! THE race of NASCAR!! One of my all time favorite sports! After all the excitement of getting the tickets really sunk in, I realized I didn't have anyone I could call to go to the races with me. I lost all my "friends" when I left TWI. I realize they weren't "real" friends to begin with, but, still I was all alone with not one person I could call to get excited with me and to make the jaunt over to Daytona. I called a couple of co-workers, but neither of them could go and one's not all that into NASCAR anyway. The other co-workers I would have called I couldn't because I didn't have their phone numbers, since we're not really "friends" outside of work. I went all by myself on Saturday and had a good time, but not as much fun as I would have had if I'd have had a friend to go with. On Sunday, I just didn't go because I didn't want to go by myself. I stayed home, watched on tv and had a pity party. Stupid little things like that really get to me. Other times it'll be something someone says that's totally unrelated to tWI, but it jars something in my memory and I just snap. You've gotten some great advice on here and they are things I've found helpful, too. My mother thinks GSpot has been a Godsend and feels like she owes so many people on here so much for helping me. My therapist thinks I spend too much time on here and it's a replacement for the cult. I've never really spent much time away from here, so maybe I should back off a bit. The most important thing, though, is to be patient with yourself and realize that it's a process and each day does get better. NOW you are in a position to really live the more abundant life we were promised. ;) You have the time, the money and the freedom to make your own choices. It really does get better and our lives get so much brighter the longer we're out.

Do you believe everything you're taught? ;)

I just found this! Very cool, y'all!!

Maybe you don't. I do. I use my hands all the time when I'm talking. I don't when I'm praying, but I do bob my head, bounce on the balls of my feet, sway and whatnot during the musical part of the service and the people who do hold their arms in the air are a refreshing change from the cold, heartless worship required by TWI. Maybe you've never heard all the jokes about Italians waving their arms all over the place when they talk. Maybe you've never heard the saying, "If you tied his hands behind his back, he couldn't talk." People do use their hands when they talk....all the time. Again, though, I think what Bliss is talking about is not primarily the praying aspect of using your hands.

Happiest of Birthdays, Sami! Sorry I missed it.

Kit Sober, you are a true gem of a lady. Your example is an inspiration and I can only imagine what a blessing you are to the lives of those who are lucky enough to get to know you personally and to get to spend time with you live and in person. I hope you had the birthday of a lifetime befitting such a wonderful lady as you are.

Well, you seem to be stuck on raising hands in prayer and I'm talking about during the music and, maybe, sometimes during prayer. The scriptures you're using are only regarding prayer and I don't think that's what Bliss's orginal questions were about. Saying that your logic holds no merit is not calling you names. I was not calling you names, merely disagreeing with your logic and reasoning - which I still disagree with. You were insinuating and by the example of the hypocrite praying for public adoration that people who pray with their hands up in the air are hypocrites and doing it for attention - that is namecalling, just a very subtle way of doing so. Any further discussion would just be circular reasoning and so I respectfully withdraw from the conversation.

Man-O-Man am I glad we didn't live in the radius for NK or Gunnison! My ex would have had us up at the crack of dawn to get their and stayed till they kicked us out. I can't imagine having to go through all that!!! Skyrider, I spewed coffee all over my computer reading that! We had our in the public library and P@ul Bro*ks was the coordinator for that. You do not tell Paul "no" - ever! We must have had twenty-five people on the set up crew - three ladies alone for "decorating" the stage and two for "the back room". Geepers creeps! I always tried to avoid having to clean the bathroom. It was always clean already, anyway.... Then, after you get all hot & sweaty, you get to put on dress clothes. Oh joy! All that so that five more people could come into the room after having their mornings to themselves. Then we got to take it all down again while still in our dress clothes. Once, when we were doing a string of more boring meetings - I think AC reviews....my ex and I asked our BCs, M@rtin & Chr1stin* C@rr*ll, why we couldn't just use the same place each time so that we didn't have to do all the nasty set up work all the time. OMG, you'd have thought we asked him to commit murder or something. My poor ex had to listen to Martin go off on him for thirty minutes straight - and how dare we question their leadership and decisions??? So glad I'm not subjected to all that anymore.

Welcome, Plinio! Your English is very good! I second what Rascal said. It's superb that your wife is still married to you since here in the US those kinds of marriages are generally not allowed. There are exceptions, but not many. It also sounds like you have a strong relationship where you can discuss these kinds of things. That's great! You seem to already being doing things correctly with regards to loving your wife and gently helping her to see where TWI's priorities and allegiences are. It just takes time - a lot of time in some cases - and the fact that she's responding to your observations is very encouraging. How long has she been involved with TWI? How much time does she spend with others involved with TWI? Does she do things and have friends who are not involved with TWI? The more you can get her to spend time with people who are not involved with TWI, the better. It really helps get a different perspective on things when you spend time with others who do have different beliefs. I'm not sure how well this would go over, but if you can find the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and if she would be open to reading it, I think it would open her eyes to how TWI twists scriptures to control and manipulate people. It was not written by anyone involved with TWI and it doesn't mention TWI anywhere in the book, so hopefully she would be receptive to reading it. Maybe don't tell her why you want her to read the book, just that someone recommended it and you wanted to read it with her. May I offer you a pastry?

mj/pond said: ROFLMAO!!!! You crack me up, mj!! Mind if I remind you of this on all the other threads where you've posted?

Wierwillites are classic cult members venerating at the altar of a man. This is why they get so defensive and raise their hackles when anything negative is said about their god. Just pass the kool-aid, please. To the poster formerly known as mj - pond, to admit that they were wrong, deceived, made bad choices...however you want to say it....to admit that is painful and some people will do anything in the world to keep from fessing up to it. They'll defend the dead man despite all the evidence stacked against him. He taught people to be twice the child of he11 than himself. Craiggers was one of his best proteges. Who has craiggers taught to be twice the child of he11 than himself? Wouldn't you want your children to know about them? So, allan is advocating violence? Why does this not surprise me? He's also upset that every confrontation of vee pee and craiggers has not been reported to him? Because he hasn't heard of any confrontations they didn't happen? :unsure: I didn't get the memo that we were supposed to let him know about these things. Such the model Christian he makes himself out to be....this is what Jesus would have wanted, I'm sure. Why, allen, should we believe your story over your brother-in-law? I don't believe you. I think HE came to YOUR house - called you on the carpet and you cowered like a little girl and are scared to death of him and that's why you tell all these lies about him.

mj/pond, would that we could all be as wise, noble and intelligent as you. It must get tiring passing judgement on so many people who just don't have it together like you.

So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands? You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned? Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are. Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13 John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae. It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services? I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring.

Someone on here, and I apologize for not being able to give proper credit, said that faith is better translated "trust". I can understand that better. If God is our heavenly father and I'm supposed to trust him to take care of me and remember that sometimes it's not always int he way that I might expect, I can "get" that. My Daddy always takes care of me and I never once questioned his ability to do so. Remember as kids how our Daddies were super heros in our eyes and there was nothing he couldn't do? That's how God is, too, only we never realize the "non super hero" status of God. I never knew for sure HOW Daddy was going to save me when I got into sticky situations, but I knew that he would - Same thing with God. Now, my Daddy expected me to use my brain, use my own reasoning skills, common sense and things I learned from he and Mama to stay out of trouble. God expects us to use our own reasoning skills as well. This may be too elementary and it may not be exactly what you're discussing, so I apologize if that's the case. Jesus said we were to be child like in our believing, so this is my simplistic child-like explanation and I've found myself getting more like that when it comes to God, the Bible, religion, etc.... I think we tried too hard to make things "elite", difficult and uber intelligent sounding in TWI and totally missed the simplicity of the truth.

Amen you adorable crumudgeon! The people in TWI when I was involved had no time to actually study anything TWI taught and had no REAL research techniques to use to "question whether those things were so". They don't even KNOW what they believe, they only know how to parrot what they've been told. There are no reasoning, logical thinking or critical thinking skills and desire on their part. They've been told what to believe and that settles it in their book. To ask them to stretch their brain beyond their trained responses is too much for many of them. And realizing that others who have left TWI have done so is threatening and that's why they get so upset. They can't and if they DO actually have the ability - they are afraid to do so because deep down they know what they are going to find and that's not a pretty picture.

Pond is the poster formerly known as mj and nothing she says carries any value, imo. She is one of those people who does not care to understand or empathize with things she doesn't believe in - such as women who find themselves in unfortunate circumstances. Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but the men we married had redeeming qualities and great value as human beings or we wouldn't have fallen in love with them. They maintained a great deal of those qualities over time which is why we tried so hard to fight for our marriages and, perhaps, love IS blind, so we put up with a lot of crap trying to salvage our commitment to God, to our husbands and our families. It's once we realized that despite all our efforts, we were being killed slowly mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually....that we took action to protect ourselves and any children involved. Some people just aren't going to get it no matter what. It's the lurkers I know who are going through the same situations we've been through that I post for. It's those who DO care and who CAN understand that I value. Not those who accuse me of merely playing the victim. I'm NOT a victim. I was abused - I fought hard to change that while saving my marriage - I couldn't change it - I left. End of story. I'm now working on my own recovery, not whining about being a victim. That's what you ladies are doing too, I think.

Wrong assumptions, John. Some of us don't care what certain posters have to say and already know, for the most part WHAT they're going to say anyway - which is nothing of value. I really and truly don't give a rat's whisker about what some people on here have to say whether it's a response to something I posted, a personal attack on me or otherwise. They are free to post like you said, and I'm free to ignore them. Actually, it's good for not wasting time and for not getting sucked into petty infantile arguments and unnecessarily getting my blood boiling. Nothing certain people post is worth considering, responding to or even acknowledging. It's not the ostrich in their case - it's not allowing these people to waste my time. ;)

Oh Geeze, Skyrider! You bring up horrible memories!! Dressing up in your Sunday "Best" - driving forever to get to someone's house just to strain to listen through the static and stay awake while standing when they would be standing in the auditorium - clapping when they clapped and then having to time your manifestations to be exactly the same length as those at hq. <_< Our area did three way calling upon three way calling upon three way calling. The quality absolutely S U C K E D!! I would always go home with a headache after straining to hear or dead tired from the draining long day and boring teachings that we'd have to listen to again on tape - in fellowship and with our witnessing partners. How friggin' unnecessary, idiotic and boring. Bobby Moneyhands got mad because some people complained about it and especially about having to dress up for the phone hookup. Like craiggers would know we didn't dress up??? I always complained about the quality and offered to pay for the whole phone bill if our location could just dial in directly and not have to be tenth in line to get hooked up to the horrible quality. And I was the contentious one!

Hey! Boob Moneyhands has one of those suits!! He was still wearing it when I was involved. ARe they now ungodly?? :blink: TopofTheWorld, you worked at hq, didn't you? Admit it! You took all those snacks for yourself, didn't you? ;) Are people going to have to submit what snacks they are bringing and which food groups they satisfy? Can't eat too much junk, you know....TWI doesn't give people healthcare in any way shape or form --- especially not visitors!

Sorry, Patriot, I think I killed your thread.

Thanks, JustLoafing. I've come to expect personal attacks from the people on the board who don't know how to discuss things or handle it when someone disagrees with them. ;) John, the point I was making with my comments was that someone being "banned" "M&A", excommunicated or otherwise no longer allowed to attend functions would surely be something that passed up the food chain (it should be anyway) and, therefore, the uppity up ups in your group would have been made aware of the situation and, obviously, stood behind the local leadership. Which is why I say it's the same and no better than TWI. IF those high up on the food chain really cared, they would have asked for your side of the story and then made a decision based on the facts of both sides. (I think that sounds pretty petty for not allowing you to continue to associate yourselves with them and would never expect that something like that would happen with any truly godly organization, but that's another subject in and of itself.) People do not get kicked out of churches these days so far as I'm aware. They may be counselled and, if they pose serious harm or threat, they may be asked to leave, but that is something that would go to the highest levels in the church and through some serious scrutiny of the situation before it would happen. At least that's how it goes in my church and not one person has ever been kicked out in the history of the church.

Here's one I wouldn't have minded getting.....

T-1 at work and wireless broadband at home - both for free! :D

FFC, it's funny how perspective changes when one gets married and has kids. That long term financial security and good school district thing becomes a lot more important then, doesn't it? ;)

Holy Micro-Management, Batman!! This is Infinitesimal-Management!! Jeepers Creeps!! And people say it's BETTER???? Holy Freaking Cow!! I'm floored - I know I shouldn't be, but I am. :blink: And to think this is how people reacted to me when I told them that they were looking at our finances and tracking our giving and how we spend our money. Sadly, for most of those still involved, this is just business as usual. TWI is a master at the abusive language - I yell because I care - We're helping you be more spiritual. What happened to "God would have ALL MEN come unto a knowledge of Him"? I don't remember there being a price on that knowledge. And are you telling me that with over FORTY MILLION DOLLARS IN THE BANK that TWI can't afford snacks for those people???? They can't even afford to feed them???? Un-friggin-believable! Oh, wait! I know - they're providing the KOOL-AID! What, too, does it say about TWI followers if they are worried that some people may not have nice clothes for the classes? What does it matter, in all honesty, but if they are worried that people don't have the "proper" attire, then something is seriously wrong with the More Abundant Life. <_< Seventeen months of Infinitesimal Management for a two week class? That would raise the suspicion and wariness factor exponentially in my book. It's only going to get worse as Skyrider said - this is just the beginning.