Belle

CW, that precious little "Z" was born in the chat room of WayDale....well, not literally "in" the chat room, but Rascal was and there was a party going on with Rascal and a bunch of WayDale'ers during the whole labor. Talk about a PAR-TAY!!

Changes the subject, too, doesn't it, Skyrider? Popcorn?

That is an illogic I do not subscribe to. Just because you MAY have ONE example of something vee pee stole and ended up teaching correctly, that does not prove in any way, shape or form that everything vee pee stole was taught correctly. I really thought you were smarter than that, WD. I really did. Are you being obtuse on purpose? Besides that, I'm not even sure how much of Bullinger's stuff IS credible. :unsure: From what I understand, his works are considered to contain quite a bit of error by many Biblical scholars. *shrug* That blows another hole in your theory, too, though, doesn't it?

Cool, I know you didn't write the book, so I'm not sure why you're being asked to clarify what's clearly written in the scriptures that you posted. *shrug* Wouldn't the author be the one for someone with issues to go to? In fact, I think that's what vee pee said when he was teaching....something like, "Don't blame me; I didn't write the book"....

I've got some popcorn, MStar. Want to share while we watch?

I was going to answer you W.D. but Belle does a fine job here... it's HOW veepee wove all those things together to fit/fill his needs/desires... Since WD appears to have missed it the first twenty times I've posted something like this.....here's the most recent and Mr. Strange seems to agree....as do Rascal and CW. ONE EXAMPLE? ONE EXAMPLE, WD?? Come now....you know there's way more than ONE thing and ONE person vee pee stole his stuff from..... Your argument has more holes in it than PFAL doctrine - not to mention that you totally ignore the invitation to actually discuss PFAL logic and actually discuss the merits of what you seem to believe to be true.

Sorry, Charlie - it's not going to happen. They will not debate PFAL because they can't. They can't prove or justify the teachings because they know that it's riddled with errors. What they will do, as you can clearly see, is attack those who question PFAL doctrine and change the subject as often and as much as they can. They will also attempt to avoid answering to these invitations to actually discuss PFAL teachings by attacking those who say PFAL is riddled with errors. They bring up other threads and other discussions about the source of PFAL data, but they will never discuss the actual teachings. I dunno, maybe they agree with everything Mike says since they seem to let him be the one doing all the defending of PFAL teachings and doctrine. Those who really want to teach people about God, should, imo, use the Bible and take the things that they can prove are true according to what they believe and teach THAT and not some class that's half @$$ put together. For the record, I have no beef with people who still subscribe to PFAL, it's their choice. I do have a beef with people who subscribe to it and attack those who don't, but refuse to discuss the actual topics taught. IMO, their actions speak louder than their words.

I guess we're just juvenile kids at heart and thank goodness we're not alone given the incredible ratings and participation from the viewers. I do agree that if Seacrest fell off the face of the eart tomorrow there would be a lot of people who wouldn't be the least bit upset. Chas, I can't quote the source, but I do think I read somewhere that he bullied himself into Kasem's job. The general consensus is that it won't last long unless they get rid of him.

ROFLMAO!!! CM, I think you’ve just summed it all up rather succinctly. :D I reckon that’s why most people want nothing to do with the God that condones, promotes and accepts that kind of behavior. Certainly not a God I would want to worship. You're not the only one, Suda....you're not the only one..... :) Thank you.

I do recall eyewitnesses stating that he visibly took the gun out and put it on display for all to see. I think it was John Linder or someone who also had a gun. Wish I could find that "The Night that Will Live in Infamy" thread Radar started.... <_< I've been through a few CD's, but I have quite a few years of info to go through.

So good to see you!! I hope things are well with you. :) As always, you have presented a very logical, reasonable observation and evaluation of the question.

That certainly would be the more honest term to use. I remember constantly hearing that there's no need to "reinvent the wheel" - vee pee did all the hard work for us so we wouldn't have to wade through all those volumes of b.s. to find the little nuggets of truth that might be in there. So I reckon "making it your own" really means "memorizing vee pee's words" so you can also use those same words.

I don't recall anyone who mentions the people vee pee plagarized from stating that they were correct. I seem to remember people saying that although vee pee plagarized from those people, that by the time vee pee had HIS finished product he had even seriously perverted the messages of those people. Of course, Oakspear, that's a good idea for all the people who have problems with the plagarizing, the erroneous and incorrect doctrine to get together and collectively come up with one decision. We can't have individual thoughts or opinions on this board, now can we?

Doncha think, though, Eagle, that it would be awfully nice to at least hear them for once say "we were wrong"? ;)

Did anyone try to control you? All the time, but the control was incremental and ever so slowly. I always use Oakspear’s example of putting frogs in cool water and slowly turning the heat up, ever so slowly so that the frogs don’t notice. Eventually the water gets so warm it kills the frogs. TWI always said that people are free to choose to “do the word” or to not “do the word”, but the consequences of not doing the word meant something horrible might happen to you or your family because God would not be able to protect you from the Devil if you don’t do the word. The caveat was that what “doing the word” mean in TWI was based on illogical leaps and twisting of scripture and teaching what TWI wanted instead of what the Bible really says God expects and desires from His kids. Example: TWI teaches that debt is sin and uses Romans 13:8 “Owe no man anything” to justify what they expect from their followers. That means any debt: house, car, hospital bills, unexpected immediate expenses, college loans, etc. They put “conditions” of being out of debt in order to take their classes and participate in their programs. They also teach that if you’re in debt that God can’t “protect” you from anything the Devil wants to do to you which could mean killing someone in your family, horrible diseases like cancer (which is devil spirit possession according to TWI) and anything that might be your worst nightmare or fear. So, according to TWI teaching, you can stay out of debt, follow their rules that they say are God’s will and be allowed to take classes and bask in the protection that God provides for His kids OR you can go into debt and take the chance that something horrible could happen to you or someone you love very much. Is that control? I think so, but TWI says the choice is yours…..It’s a free will choice and they don’t control you in any way. It’s like telling people, imo, that they can do something horrible and oppressive or they can put a bullet to their head. Sure, it’s a choice, but, is it really? If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they? I never experienced this. I do know people who were removed from leadership positions for getting pregnant against the desires, will and rules of TWI. Were you scared at any point and why? Always scared. Always afraid of being kicked out (Mark & Avoid in TWI terms). Afraid that if I decided to no longer associate with TWI, that they would break up my marriage. It happened. It’s because TWI wants complete control of individuals and if someone leaves TWI they may very well convince their spouse that TWI is wrong and then they will no longer have another person to control nor will they have that person’s money coming into the TWI bank accounts. Just my perspective and opinion. What drew you to this group? I originally met some really nice people and they could answer all kinds of questions about the Bible and they knew these scriptures from memory. It was very impressive. Now, I know that the answers they had and that so impressed me were wrong. I believe that there’s just some things we don’t know and can’t know and it’s better to say “I don’t know” than to subscribe to or believe someone just because they say they have an answer. Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will? I think there’s a great deal of manipulation. Of course, based on my answers to the “control” question you asked above, I think that we never really had a choice. I think the atmosphere, teachings and “suggestions” along with the twisting of scriptures gave the illusion of us making our own decisions, but the reality was we didn’t really have a choice and weren’t fully able to do things according to our own will. Some studies already done on this are the Stockholm Syndrome and there is also a prison experiment done at a college where the simulated a prison environment. I can’t recall the name off the top of my head, but if you really want to know, please let me know and I’ll look it up for you. I want to say it was the Stanford Prison Experiment, but that could be wrong. What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group? Sex is okay outside marriage. Sharing the reasons people were kicked out of the group with the whole church….embarrassing details about people’s lives for the purpose of “educating” the church. What beliefs did/do they follow? Not sure I understand or know what you’re looking for here. What did you think was really false about the group? The “happy” and “abundant life” that people were supposedly living. It was more like a bunch of “stepford” believers (this only makes sense if you’ve seen Stepford Wives :D ). What did I think while I was involved or once I got out? The above is something that I noticed while I was still involved. I learned a heck of a lot more once I left the group. Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things? According to their debt policy and “owe no man anything” there was nothing you could own that you couldn’t pay cash for – that includes a house, a car and a college education. If you were to own something considered “extravagant” by TWI standards, it was frowned upon. People were forbidden to own “serious pets” and that includes dogs, cats, horses, etc. However, the woman who is now president of TWI has always owned cats. People were forbidden to smoke. It started with leadership, but certain leaders were exempted from this rule and eventually it trickled down to mean that everyone in TWI who smoked had to stop smoking. Were there money issues? Yes, especially with the “no debt” policy that TWI eventually said they never had, but they never changed the “rules”. Yes, because TWI taught that we were to give MINIMUM 15% of our income to them – not to other charities – not to give in terms of time or service in lieu of money – but 15% of our income and that constantly changed from net to gross to net to gross to net of our income. Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used? The dove. Because it represented the gift of holy spirit. They forbade their followers to have crosses on display and to wear crosses. They constantly taught that if Jesus was murdered by an electric chair or machine gun is that something we’d be wearing around our necks? What is PFAL? A class that taught the foundations of the control issues that TWI planned to implement the longer that people were involved. It also laid the groundwork for the control and justified the warped doctrines TWI teaches. Worse than that, the whole dam n thing was plagiarized and not original research as we were taught that it was. It’s also full of errors if someone were to really evaluate and study what was taught in this class. What is "twig" ("twig" coordinator)? Others have answered this very adequately. Best wishes for you and please let us know what grade you get on your paper!! Again, please feel free to contact me privately if you have any follow up questions or want more elaboration on these. :)

Is this the one you wanted, Rascal? My favorite little cutie pie with the angelic voice!!!

Yeah.....that's what I meant, Tom....must have something to do with my brain cells from "hearing" about all this. <_<

MORE - MORE - MORE!!!! ENCORE!!!! I know Rascal's got a bunch of great stories!

It's all I was taught in TWI, CW. I realize it may not be correct (doh!) and I've never really "gotten" it because TWI teaches that you are automatically made righteous once you're born again, but then they go on talking about all the works your supposed to do to "manifest" your righteousness. It seems to me you are or you aren't and if you can't get that way by works, then why are you supposed to do these works to manifest your righteousness? Am I just not understanding what they're saying or it is just one cluster freak? :unsure: This is part of it from Robin's article:

Thanks for the edge-um-a-kay-shun, Tom. In that case Costco-type lbs. would be around $600-$800 depending on where it came from....leastways, I *think* that's what I heard....

Yes it does, Skyrider. Yes it does. All anyone has to do is question the fox on her micromanagement and lies in the courts to find that out. Heck, post something negative about TWI on here and then try to go to a fellowship.....even if it's only one thing you disagree with, disagreements are NOT allowed and acceptable behavior.

David, I sorta get what you're saying, but regardless of whether you spend money or not, you're still wealthy. :) You don't have to spend, invest or whatever to keep the title of wealthy - you have a bunch of money or you don't. Same thing with Mo's Apples & Oranges - which - THAT - I see and get a little more clearly, but I still come back to us being made righteous means we're righteous no matter what we do. Sure, it's not a license to sin, but sinning doesn't make us "unrighteous" if it's a gift that can't be taken back. TWI used it as a license to sin and I think that's absolutely wrong, btw. I know the Bible says we reap what we sow, but isn't the bottom line that we are still able to stand before God as righteous sons and daughters regardless? Maybe it's just the word "manifest" I have a problem with....I dunno.... I'm not trying to be a sh1t, really. I just never got this sonship rights as a gift but then having all these expected and required works tied onto them. <_< edited for spelling

ckmkeon, what is your idea of the perfect church? What do you think we should be looking for and expecting from a church we might want to get involved with?

And, in return, Jerry, YOU have helped an awful lot of people. :) I know. I'm one of them. Your willingness to at least consider and discuss things rather than merely throwing out attacks at people has gone a long way toward providing some of the best documentation of the doctrinal errors in PFAL we have around. All the research you, Raf, Garth, Research Geek and others put into honestly, objectively evaluating what we were taught is invaluable - especially to the research and logic challenged souls like me.

JL, you DO tell the best stories! I know better than to have a mouthful of anything when I start reading a post of yours.