Belle

Yeah, we weren't to trust our experiences and we weren't to trust our emotions.......UNLESS...they furthered TWI agenda. When witnessing, remember, we were told to tell people what God did for us through TWI and what we learned in PFAL. That people couldn't argue with our experiences. <_< But, if said experience was contrary to PFAL or what TWI wanted us to believe...well, then it couldn't be believed. Another two-faced, double-tongued doctrine of TWI.

Awwwww.....Geeze....I hated excellor sessions! We used to have them in our fellowship because they felt that some people weren't doing so well. Well, duh! They didn't have the vivid imagination to come up with that stuff and they probably weren't very interested in being good at it, but that was not acceptable. One guy kept saying things like, "I called you out of the darkness..." and "Though you walk through the darkness of the world...." and T*dd Cenc1ch kept telling the guy he was wrong cause God wouldn't use such dark language in his messages...... I really felt sorry for that guy. He was really trying and was more and more frustrated and embarrassed and not one of us spoke up for him. :( We exchanged glances and rolled eyes, but that's about it. And, for retention rate in the 90's.....TWI was doing good to hold on to one grad from every class for longer than a month. So many people disappeared right after the class and we never heard from them again...unless they were kids of standing TWIts who didn't have a choice.

I got a PM on this....bringing it to the top for them. :)

*scratching head* HOW would one know that the other believers are focused on their unbelief? Isn’t that being judgmental and making assumptions? Where is “believeing believer” in the Bible and set apart from just plain “believer”? How does that fit with “all members of the same body?” Then I guess I don’t understand this part of your post above: Why does there have to be a competition for being the “closest” to God and where does the Bible say that God selects one person to be the “man of God” in any situation? I can see this, but why does it have to be the one “closest” to God? Couldn’t it just be that maybe someone has a “strong suit” in that category or a connection to the person needing ministering that makes them the best person for that situation – not necessarily that they are a “man of God” or closest to God? I don’t recall any scripture about this situation either. Then how do you know that’s what the criteria is? How do you know that’s what’s going on? Is there a scripture I can read for this? But Pharaoh wasn’t in God’s camp. Paul was, but the soldiers weren’t necessarily. Are you saying that when the Apostles were gathered together that one of them was the “closest” to God? That they were never on equal footing with God? That when I went to TWIt functions that some one person in that room was “closest” to God? I’m just still not grasping the concept of the “man of God” in the terms that you’ve laid out…. Not trying to be dense, I just don’t get it. Then wouldn’t we have a Man of God in Our Day in Time if that’s the way it is? It seems to me that IF that was the way it was that Jesus did away with the “man of God” title and concept as it was understood during Moses’ time. That there is no longer a need for a Man of God because there is no longer the need for a church or synagogue seeing as how we are all of one body and Christ being the head. Seems if there is going to be a Man of God for our day and time that, that Man of God would be Jesus and not some person on earth. edited to fix quote codes.

Linda, I agree wholeheartedly and that's something I've pretty much always thought despite what TWI taught and expected us to pretend to believe. :) It was obvious to me that these leaders walking around pretending to be oh so spiritual were faking it. But it was the elephant in the room and you couldn't talk about it. As far as we were to know their lives were perfect, they were perfect and, if by some chance they admitted to not being perfect it was because they left their towels on the floor. As for the Session 12 ambush - HECK YEAH!! - But my experience was really very different from most people. I got involved with some people who had the class on bootleg audio cassettes sitting in a ladies living room at night for an hour at a time. The 12th session was going to be on a Sunday as I listened to the last three hours of the class. There were a bunch of people there - people I had met at one time or another, but since I had always only listened to the tape by myself or with one of the spouses who were letting me take the class (for free), it was a little disconcerting to have that many people around. When it got to the SIT part, they all stood up with me and the room exploded into SIT and I was in shock, embarrasssed because they were all watching and waiting for me to "do something". The pressure was incredible. I doubt I spoke in tongues but mumbled something to not let them down. It was incredibly awkward, but now I know they were doing what they had learned from their experiences with PFAL. By the time I took the class with PFAL I knew what to expect and just felt very sorry for the other new students in that class with me.

IF you find something in PFAL to be correct then it was probably plagarized. Why not go to the plagarized source to teach people? At least then it's not laced and worded in vee pee's personal agenda and it's the honest thing to do since it would be giving credit to the true author and not the criminal lying sob.

Wow! Great discussion here! And I really like that it's remain civilized and respectful. That's when we make progress in our discussions and can learn from each other. :) The difference, Linda, I see between your assessment of PFAL and the beliefs of those who still hold to vee pee's teachings and still study and teach from PFAL is that you have indeed moved on. You no longer hold to and subscribe to PFAL as the be all, end all and infallible teachings that those others still do. You've re-evaluated, you've dismissed and you've recognized the teachings for what they are. And you may hold onto some of those things you were taught, but you share it from having "made it your own" and not from vee pee, the honorable awesome "teacher" and "man of God" taught this. I would suspect that you don't even mention vee pee with those who are not familiar with TWI at all. (I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get). The people who are most staunch supporters of PFAL are still holding onto the class and vee pee's teachings like a security blanket. They go to great lengths to support vee pee and his teachings and continue to teach those things to unsuspecting peope despite knowing the great deal of harm that can come to the lives of those who consider vee pee's words as the standard by which they evaluate scripture and how to live their lives. I hardly think that having a bad teacher in shool equates to having a bad teacher in the Bible. I just think that religious teaching and training is much more important and more serious as far as the individual goes than school subjects. If PFAL proponents were to really evaluate the class and the things that they hold to - and I don't mean just looking up the scriptures that are used in the class and reading the "assigned TWI reading materials" - they would come to very different conclusions than what they currently believe. Not that we would all come to the same conclusion, but at least PFAL would have been taken out of the picture. THEN they have a foundation to start from in their lives an IF they decide then that they want to teach others. THEN they have built a foundation they can be sure of and that they KNOW is the truth (in their opinion). THEN they would have no need of PFAL and no need (or desire, I hope) to subject people to the burdens, guilt and wrongs that we have had to weed out of our lives. They also have a teacher with more integrity than vee pee ever dreamed of having. Again, this is all my opinion. But it seems pretty pathetic for people to continue using vee pee and PFAL as the guidepost, standard and measuring stick by which they evaluate everything else.

I think your points were very well made, Goey. And I truly hold out hope for ck. He really does remind me a lot of myself at his age - heck, even in my mid 20's when I started swallowing things hook, line and sinker. I was definitely one of the lazy, brain dead ones. I think he sticks things out there sometimes to see the response and, while he may not immediately embrace it, it's sinking in and if he continues he'll have an "ah ha" moment where it comes together. It did for me anyway and that's my hope for him. ck, how about those verses I posted? They really don't fit with vee pee's teachings, do they?

<_< So we're still not there, eh, Mo? Those ribs smell really good! I have some fried okra and collards to contribute to the menu. Penguin and ck, those are good points. I like the way you're thinking.

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, SIR!! I hope it's hopping! And as bright as you are!

I'll drink to that!

With all due respect, Galen (and I do respect you :) ) I wonder if it feels like an ambush to PFAL adherents because they can't/won't defend their beliefs. It's practically impossible to have a genuine debate or discussion with PFAL adherents because they start changing the subject and attacking the messenger instead of bringing any proof or basis for their belief. Besides that, they never show up in the Doctrinal Dungeon with any proof or intelligent dialog. Methinks they doth protest too much.... <_< The reason I haven't posted mine is because I'm still trying to decide what to post.

Sorry, I have a problem with KJV and this version is easier for me to understand. :) How do these fit? Romans 5:9 And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's judgment. v.10 For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life. V.13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. v.15 And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift. v.16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. v.17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God's wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. v.21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. but then Romans 7:17 But I can't help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things. Romans 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. Romans 8:2 For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. Romans 8:4 He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. Romans 8:13 For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds, you will live.

1 Pet 3:12 - The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right, and his ears are open to their prayers. But the Lord turns his face against those who do evil." 1 Pet 3:21 - And this is a picture of baptism, which now saves you by the power of Jesus Christ's resurrection. Baptism is not a removal of dirt from your body; it is an appeal to God from a clean conscience. ********* How about these? So, are we to just ignore Jesus? Nothing he says is true or of any value? Pick and choose what you want to believe? Is that how it goes, OM?

Well, WTH thats from www.blueletterbible.com and it's 1 Pet 4:18 in the NLV. The top of my post is 1 Pet 4:15-19. I thought the other verse numbers showed up when I pasted the scriptures from the website. My comments are after the string of **** (asterisks). I didn't write the book, so maybe you should take it up with the author. <_< Do you have an actual answer to the question posted in the very first post of this thread, can you offer proof to refute those verses or are you just here to blow smoke like OM tried to do?

I hope it's Absolutely WONDERMOUS!!!

It's debatable as to whether Romans 13:8 is supposed to be in the Bible, too, but that hasn't stopped them from using it. <_<

I don't even know how you read those mj posts. I can't understand what's being said half the time, so I gave up. You have my admiration, CW. :) mckeanj - It can be hard learning your way around at first. For the most part we really are pretty harmless. I'd recommend getting lost here first: Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe! It's a tour of the site given by our illustrious WordWolf and he definitely has a way with words and knows how to explain things very well. I think that link will give you a great overview and maybe help you from getting lost. BTW, aren't ya gonna eat that brownie? I saw Tom Strange drooling over them on the "Pot" Thread in open and I'm afraid he might eat yours too if you don't eat it. AND if you aren't planning on eating it, I wanted it. ;)

1Pe 4:15 - If you suffer, however, it must not be for murder, stealing, making trouble, or prying into other people's affairs. But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his wonderful name! For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin first among God's own children. And if even we Christians must be judged, what terrible fate awaits those who have never believed God's Good News? And "If the righteous are barely saved, what chance will the godless and sinners have?" ********** I don't think this one does either, Mo. That fried chicken smells awesome!! Funny, allan was looking at the thread, but didn't respond. Guess he can't help us either. <_< Surely they taught how to back up the logic they were taught in PFAL, weren't they? Surely they studied the doctrine and "made it their own" so that they could teach others and answer the questions others have, didn't they?

Rev 21:7 All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. But cowards who turn away from me, and unbelievers, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those who practice witchcraft, and idol worshipers, and all liars--their doom is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death." Is he distinguishing between “cowards who turn away from me” and “unbelievers”? Could that mean the cowards *could* be born again?

Alright, you and the Strange Tom are going to have to quit using big words like this! I already had to look up another word Tom Strange used yesterday.... :ph34r: :D Tom, Remember that PFAL defenders still subscribe to the Bullinger/Wierwille administrations and, therefore, throw out all of Jesus's teachings. He's going to tell you that that's not "to" us. :blink:

Here's a link to the thread, y'all. A Night that will Live in Infamy

Not sure I get it. Can you give us an example?

I definitely want a warning if that rat poop story is added!! It's a classic and, if you know Rascal, even that much funnier. CW, you will need to double up on those Depends when it's ready! And don't have anything in your mouth that you don't want coming out of your nose, either....

I think that's because we....err....they are too busy with munchies and trying to get the energy and motivation to do anything else.