Belle

I don't think I can say it any better than Rascal has. I'd like to see Dove explain why he has more or better knowledge of what these people experienced to be in a position to refute what they are sharing. I very much enjoy chatting with Dove on other subjects and he has even sent me some things via snail mail that I really appreciate, but when it comes to the subject of abuse at the hands of leadership and others within TWI - including some other situations - I'd like to know what authority he has that makes him think he knows better than those with first hand experience what really happened or what was "really" taught.

Sorry. No idea. I get a new cell phone every two years when I renew my contract with Cingular/AT&T - it's whatever they're giving away for free at that time and usually not the latest and greatest, but I'd still be using my first cell phone if they didn't offer free ones... I'm not much of a phone person. ^_^

I owe a few friends down that way a visit - depending on the week-end, I might be able to swing down and meet up with you and Raf and the families for some foodstuffs. :) Raf is the expert on the area, though, so I'll leave all advice up to him.

(((((RASCAL)))))

They canceled the rock right after I got involved with TWI - never had the pleasure but sure do enjoy reading the memories y'all have.... honey wagons, cold showers, flooded tents and all... :)

Raf, I quit with Chantix without any side effects - the habit aspect was the hardest. That being said, it is a good thing to have others watching your mental and emotional state as well as monitoring your self-talk and what's going on in your head just in case. Sitting in traffic thinking: "What the heck to non-smokers do while they're driving?!?!" I still HATE being in the truck stuck in traffic with nothing to puff on. And I don't like it when people light up on the movie screen - that's actually harder for me than sitting around a bunch of smokers. Good on ya!

Dooj and Tom, while I appreciate what you're saying (linking to) - I'd like to see all these questions answered by Dove - including how much "face to face" time Dove had with vee pee and how he is any more qualified to make comments than anyone else. How, especially, he considers himself knowledgeable enough to refute those who post their personal experiences. :) He has plenty of time to spend bashing people in these booths, surely he can take just a few moments to answer these simple, straightforward questions. I don't need, nor want, a dissertation - just a few easy answers.

Cognitive dissonance at its worst. Seared conscience. That's the only way I figure the moynihans, rosie, donna, john linder, etc. can sleep at night. My ex has bought their lies and practically had a panic attack any time I started to provide proof that they were lying. We divorced in 2004 and even then he refused to believe that vee pee died of cancer. The kids, sadly, are not much better off that those kids in the polygamists cults. They get interaction with the "outside world" but still filter every word and experience through what Mama, Daddy and the MOGs teach them.

Quite the insightful and profound observation, Jim. Almost like they're afraid to do anything vee pee might be upset about.... don't want to die only to see vee pee standing there with his mug of Drambuie wanting to know why the heck they screwed up so badly.

Great discussion. Not having any kids of my own, I love seeing how y'all are encouraging your kids to think, ask their questions and ponder openly. I think that's a superb foundation for a healthy child. Lindy, had to laugh at your genocide example. Abi, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Hawking (here's a great article on God and Science) by Henry F. Schaefer III who once said: Anyway, Hawking wrote what's supposed to be a children's book called "God Created the Integers: The Mathematical Breakthroughs That Changed History" - maybe they have it at your library? I don't know anything about the book, but love Hawking's work.... well, the very tiny bit of it that I am able to understand. I do think it's possible (perhaps even essential?) to weave God and science together - one is not exclusive of the other. Since leaving TWI, I have adopted quite the eclectic view of life and have learned a bit about many different beliefs - Christian, Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, etc... I do find that the common denominator in all of them is a loving kindness toward our fellow man. The rest is peripheral, but it's those peripheral things that instill and impress that golden rule/ethical living into our core being. Love that you're looking to keep the shades of gray in the big picture - I think that black & white thinking can be very dangerous and limiting as we've evidenced in our own lives thanks to TWI.

DARN THOSE GREASESPOTS!! Here ya go, Raf:

There appears to be a great deal of freedom in finding what level, depth, extreme.... whatnot, one wants to live within Judaism. It's actually easier to find it just about everywhere these days, which is great. It seems to me that, from my limited perceptions, the orthodox aspects is a holding on to those practices that were in place because of sanitary, health and logical reasons of the times - things not necessary in today's culture. Some of those rituals were in place to ensure freedom from illness, disease and survival, no? I didn't realize the aspect of pain and suffering, though... interesting. Some rituals also, are good reminders, a form of meditation and what some new age beliefs call "grounding" - Yoga could be considered a healthy ritual, imo. More later, back to work.......

Dove, I enjoy bantering with you when we are not talking about Harry Potter or TWI. :) Dogs, Flying Pigs and music are much safer (and enjoyable conversations). Regarding your vehement desire to defend all things vee pee and TWI, can you please answer these simple, straight forward questions?

Spiritual blackmail – Spirutal Abuse – Incredible Ego - Appeals to our ego - That's what I see in JAL’s words: How can something be “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church” when hardly anyone has ever heard of it and it taught nothing that was not already published, taught and (sorry) available elsewhere? How can it be that when MOST of what was taught has been proven to be doctrinally wrong? There doesn’t seem to be much meat on the bones of that fish to salvage. Wouldn’t we be better off just moving to another pond with healthy fish? How can it be all that when so many people have been hurt and so many lives have been destroyed by TWI, its leadership, its doctrine and practices? He uses controlling and demeaning language regarding victims and threats of “what have you done with what you learned”. All the while implying that if we are not involved with HIS group, we are not doing enough. Actually, other churches are involved with DOING the simple bottom line as laid out by Jesus – “Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength….. Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law and prophets.” All I can think of regarding this is Goey’s signature “Many of my fondest memories in TWI... never really happened.” and, then there’s also the question of whether or not it was worth it given all the lives that have been destroyed. Before I left Dottie Moynihan told me that I would soon see TWI back to the “good ole days”, so JAL is not the only one who is desperately holding onto the listing deck of the Titanic. (Thanks for such a poignant analogy, T-Bone)

And how many knew from day one what was going on? Helped cover for it? Helped "counsel" these victims and even after all of this STILL, TO THIS DAY SUPPORT TWI? It's sickening. Absolutely sickening. ********* Krys, thank you so much for sharing what you know and have experienced with us. If it were not for your son so many of us would still be entrenched - or at least have taken quite a bit longer to wake up to the truth of the evil that is TWI.

Nice to know the WAYGB is still hard at work. Hi, mr. linder!

Dove, please set the record straight.

LOVE YA BUNCHES, DOT!!

Also posted as Janis. Who else? How many other personalities do you have out there?

Hey Janis, Besides posting as Lucy and Just p155ing Through, who else do you post as?

No, but I'm flattered you think so. It was a serious observation, Hon. Seriously doubt it. Definitely not when looking on the inside.

Lucy, print this thread out and give it to your doctor on your next visit. You may need to have the level of your meds or therapy increased. I am through. You need more help than we can provide here.

LOL! Thanks, Nandon. "stepping down" That's the first step to "stepping out" usually, isn't it? It's got to be scary when one has never had a "real job" in their lives, but it shows balls moving away from that TWI t1t. Maybe that's what they are doing..... Sounds like Mark Wallace would make a great used car salesman. or should that be, used motorcycle salesman?

Not always. Especially with a "Christian" organization where one would never expect to find that kind of behavior. so people DID tell you about some things. What did you do? Why didn't you say something? Go to the police? FBI? Other leadership? Surely you recognized this as inappropriate. So why do you think you're any different than ex, Dot and the many, many other women preyed on by vee pee and/or craig? You know what they went through - you just had a different perp abusing you. Ditto those women you have lashed out against. At least you "knew God" - These women were abused by someone who represented God - think about how much more messed up that can make you. HELLOOOOO.... when do you think these things with vee pee happened?!? It's a really sad day when a child doesn't feel safe at home NOR IN THE CHURCH where she should feel the safest. How's about not attacking in your questions or assuming the worst? How's about giving the victims the benefit of the doubt in the way you phrase your questions? And, a lot of those "fake names" are only "fake" to people like you. People who have earned their trust know who they are and many have been friends with them since day 1 of their involvement with TWI. ;) Dunno if you're aware or not, but TWI monitors this website very closely and goes to great lengths to discover who the posters are. They actually use that information when and however they can. But you'll have to do a bit of digging to find out details on that if you're really interested. There are lots of reasons why people want to maintain their privacy on the WORLD WIDE WEB. Maybe you're not really smarky. I sincerely hope not. I do hope that you consider how your words come across when there's no body language or tone of voice to follow. Perhaps a little more editing is all that's needed to give us the proper impression of you?