Belle

Not a poor joke, David. Just a poor audience. I apologize. Ya know, that's funny because when I started attending a Methodist church, my grandmother used that as a difference between the two. Not that she was discouraging me, but just talking about the difference. Turns out she was actually raised in the "country" church growing up which wasn't really denominational....it was merely the only church in her hometown growing up. She became Baptist when she married my grandfather. My great uncle, Paw Paw's brother, is an ordained Baptist minister. Funniest, is I never knew we believed in predestination. :)

Dunno, david. I was raised Southern Baptist and never heard of a "free will" offering. My parents were not allowed to continue teaching Sunday School because they refused to commit 10% of their income to the church. Nevermind that they gave in so many other ways and to so many other causes. Free will offering's in TWI weren't really that either. They were expected.....kind of like the outcome suffered by Adam and Eve.

Hadn't heard about it. Thanks, Catcup. :) Good luck on finals! I know you'll kick butt. I hope to hear from some of the innies I still have contact with to verify this and, hopefully, get more information.

Well, Crusty Pottydunkin, I think I don't think nearly as much nor as critically as I think I do. :) I've learned a lot from people here about critical thinking without calling it that. I've seen and watched interesting dialog, discussion and debate and learned to see how others think things through because we do have the freedom here to "think out loud". I think, I hope, I've gotten better at evaluating and looking at things from as many sides, angles and degrees as possible - the problem, however, is that this can lead to "analysis paralysis". I'll have to think about that.....

Danny, I meant to thank you for the post to your Marcionite work. I plan to spend some time today reading on it. Looks like you've put a great deal of time and thought into it. I'm looking forward to diving into it and learning even more from you. :)

I have downloaded it, but not read it yet. There is a great discussion in the dungeon on it and other ancient manuscripts. Here's a couple of links for ya. Ancient Manuscripts Gospel of Judas

If they did what they were supposed to do, then doesn't that negate "free will"? AND, if they did what they were supposed to do, why would God set it up that way? Condemning them right from the get-go, isn't it? Setting them up to fail - to screw up and get in trouble - setting them up to die? What the heck kind of God is that? I'm genuinely asking. Not trying to be a sh1t. It just doesn't fit with the all loving God of free will.

Woah, Clay, Goey's spent a great deal of time typing out what he has seen, read, studied and put together. He han't slammed you at all, but rather shared what he sees and why. :) I respect that and he makes some very good points here and they do make sense. I can see what he's saying; can't you? Whether you believe it or not. What you did was post a bunch of scriptures but given no basis, comment or information on those scriptures. It makes it hard to consider what you think about the topic based on that. I want to consider your observations, but by merely posting scriptures with nothing else, it's difficult to do. (Long paragraphs like that make it hard to read, too. ) Please, share what YOU think and maybe pick a few of the scriptures and how you think those contradict or say something different than the conclusion that Goey has come to and explained very well.

Dang! Got me! I was thinking, "and this is in the Silly forum because????"

I loved these! Y'all are too funny! Here's one I thought of: A woman will dig through her purse, holding up the line for ten minutes, because she knows she has exact change. A man may have twenty dollars in change in his pocket, but won't touch it till he empties his pockets at the end of the day.

Looks like a lot of us have the same thinking about church and organized religion. :) Looks like some of us are still contemplating that baby, too. And others, have brought the baby into the house instead of going to church for the baby. I like the church I attend, but I'm still contemplating, learning and thinking about God and all that is. Some days I'm afraid to NOT believe in God....other days I can't believe there is a God ....and still others, I think it's way more than the "Christian God" and way more and way different from what we were taught. That's why I like hanging out in the Doctrinal Dungeon and learning from others. It's why I like visiting the Unitarian Universalist Church and it's why I've been studying and learning about other religions, beliefs and whatnot.

DANG - I missed it. :(

Awesome! Just Awesome!! I suspect that you didn't not receive any reply from Rosie in writing because it would have been the same b.s. John Richeson got from his equally concerned, logical and caring letter. Your care and concern for the TWI that you came to know an love and the people involved comes through loud and clear. You seem, like John, to not want to leave TWI, but could no longer, in good conscience, stay with things the way they are. Hopefully your letter stirred up some thoughts, doubts and concerns with those who read your letter and had to come up with justifications and rationalizations along "the company line" to bring to you. One can only ignore all the problems with TWI just so long. One who still has a glint of light in their life anyway. I'm afraid the fox's heart is too much of a black hole to be reached with the light of God or the light of logic. I pray the others who have read your letter are not so sold out and so dependent on the TWIt paycheck to ignore the very rational, real and logical points addressed in your letter. Obviously the Giles and the Moneyhands would rather garner the pseudo-respect, money and other perceived benefits of towing the company line than to actually do what is right. Hopefully your leadership is different. Thank you and your lovely wife for taking the time to post this for us. IMO, it just shows that they really haven't and really don't want to change. Furthermore, that they are too scared to put anything in writing anymore because they know they're wrong and that it will/can/should come back to bite them on the foot.

We missed all kinds of red flags, didn't we, Roy? David, remember that we, under Craig, were "reproved" for the rain when it happened at the Rock. :) I can spot them all now. It's sad that I didn't jump at them then, but now I'm stronger to recognize and acknowledge those things when they happen now. Hopefully, I recognize them sooner but also don't jump just because something doesn't "seem" right thereby missing out on something. There's defnitely a balance between being cautious and being skittish and I'm not always sure where that balance is sometimes.

Welcome, PaulTony!! We look forward to getting to know you. Here's the Latte T-Bone ordered for you.

David, I suspect it's all of the above. Your posts are always very well thought out and respectful. When one is treated with respect, it's easy to respond in kind. :) You don't insult the person asking and you ARE willing to have a real discussion. You are also willing to explain "why" when asked, whereas others just say, "so and so teaches on this" or "it's in the blue book" or "vee pee said it". You've obviously spent time considering your viewpoint and are willing to talk about it. That you talk about it in a calm, mature manner also makes a big difference. They say, "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" and your words are sweet honey, David.

I don't know, Roy. :) I've really gotten away from labels and classifications of people, including myself, since leaving TWI and trying to rid myself of TWIt brain. I'm still evaluating and pondering on the things I believe and some days that includes going to church, other days it doesn't. I'm still very hesistant to join the church, but I'm also hesitant on some days just even believing in church and God. I reckon my posts in Doctrinal bear that out. I do believe in the good in people and I try to be one of those who practices good to all. Beyond that, it's a crapshoot as to how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking each day. ;)

I'm sorry that you felt like leaving at one time, Roy. :( I'm glad that you reached out to Paw and that you were able to talk things over in chat. Chat is a great place to get immediate feedback and to connect in "real time" with others. Many, many people on here have helped me, too. Many of them for years and not just for one situation or another. Definitely not the kind of help we got in TWI, eh? I know your words have been healing and encouraging to me, as well. :) I love it when people PM me with questions. It gives me a chance to give back to people here when I've taken in so many ways. Thank you for sharing your story, Roy. You are truly special.

Oh geeze, Evan. I'm so glad nobody was hurt. You do seem to be very calm about it. That's most likely helping. :)

I've been watching ticket prices. :blink: Hoping SW will release some special pricing soon. Right now the uber cheap tickets are only good through June. I'm just along for the ride - I'll go where ever - do whatever, I'm just happy to be seeing y'all. BUT, if we get Suda tipsy, think she'll pole dance for us, too?

Jonny, my parents lived (and raised us kids) in the same small town for over 40 years. Three years ago they moved when Daddy got a great job offer. Everyone thought they would hate it since they had built their own little paradise in Mississippi - great friends - great things to do, etc. They have thrived in their new town, established themselves in the community, made great friends and enjoy doing different, but equally as exciting things...basically, they have another paradise for them. My mom is healthier and stronger and better than I've ever seen her. It's scary, to be sure, and Mom was nervous as all get out about leaving her "home", but they really do love it. Sounds like the pros outweigh the cons, imo. And "who says you can't go home?" ;) I think you'd love the outdoors of TX. New things to adjust to, but you had to do that in Alaska, too, no? Traffic? Yeah, it sux, but you get used to it and you seem like the kind of guy who would get a kick out of finding those little travelled backroads to avoid the main highways and interstate parking lots. It's a puzzle for me and now, I can get just about anywhere in the Central FL area without ever touching a main thoroughfare.

1. NAMES If Laurie, Linda, Elizabeth and Barbara go out for lunch, they will call each other Laurie, Linda, Elizabeth and Barbara. If Mark, Chris, Eric and Tom go out, they will affectionately refer to each other as Fat Boy, Cockzilla, Peanut-Head and Scrappy. 2. EATING OUT When the bill arrives, Mark, Chris, Eric and Tom will each throw in $20, even though it's only for $32.50. None of them will have anything smaller and none will actually admit they want change back. When the girls get their bill, out come the pocket calculators. 3. MONEY A man will pay $2 for a $1 item he needs. A woman will pay $1 for a $2 item that she doesn't need but it's on sale. 4. BATHROOMS A man has five items in his bathroom: a toothbrush, shaving cream, razor, a bar of soap, and a towel from the Marriott. The average number of items in the typical woman's bathroom is 337. A man would not be able to identify most of these items. 5. ARGUMENTS A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. 6. CATS Women love cats. Men say they love cats, but when women aren't looking, men kick cats. 7. FUTURE A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband. A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife. 8. SUCCESS A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man. 9. MARRIAGE A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't. A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change and she does. 10. DRESSING UP A woman will dress up to go shopping, water the plants, empty the garbage, answer the phone, read a book, and get the mail. A man will dress up for weddings and funerals 11. NATURAL Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed. Women somehow deteriorate during the night. 12. OFFSPRING Ah, children. A woman knows all about her children. She knows about dentist appointments and romances, best friends, favorite foods, secret fears and hopes and dreams. A man is vaguely aware of some short people living in the house. 13. THOUGHT FOR THE DAY Any married man should forget his mistakes. There's no use in two people remembering the same thing. AND FINALLY... A couple drove down a country road for several miles, not saying a word. An earlier discussion had led to an argument and neither of them wanted to concede their position. As they passed a barnyard of mules, jack asses, and pigs, the husband asked sarcastically, "Relatives of yours?" "Yep," the wife replied, "in-laws."

Well, David, the way I see it.... IF God is truly all the "all" things that we're taught, then why would he knowingly create a situation where he knew that "thou shalt surely die"? Why would he create "evil" and the devil? Why not create a true paradise where there is no evil, bad stuff, nothing that we could screw up? Why set up a situation where he'd have to have his son tortured and killed? Just doesn't make sense to me....not logical given the benevolent God that he's supposed to be. IF he really is all those things then it would be possible, no? He makes the rules, doesn't he? Seems to be a pretty messed up set of rules, imo. I know my Daddy never put me in a situation where he knew I was gonna screw up. He never expected me to fail and did everything he could to make sure I was prepared to handle situations and tried to teach me how to avoid getting into a pickle. Surely God Almighty could have at least done that. *shrug* Not saying I know all the answers, but that it seems to me that Adam & Eve were "set up" to fail and God not only knew it, but created the situation so that they would.

Ooohhh, can't wait!!!