Belle

Krys, isn't it the fear that alerts you to a dangerous situation and then it's up to you as to how you react? Children don't get in trouble for being angry, frustrated or feeling whatever it is that's causing them to feel that way - they get in trouble for how they react to their feelings. I consider it more learning how to behave within whatever emotional state we find ourselves as opposed to controlling our emotions. When I was dealing with the death of my aunt, I was careful to continue my work-ethic during business hours, but allowed myself to grieve, weep till I heaved, sleep..... whatever - I never tried to control how I felt, merely how I conducted myself. We control our responses to our emotions, not our emotions. I dunno, maybe we're saying the same thing? ex, I think that as ses like Finnegan were really angry about other things and took them out on us. I think they must hate themselves for being so dependent on such an evil organization for a paycheck. They have to hate themselves for having to lick Rosie's nether regions and do whatever she tells them to do. They had to kiss vee pee's, then craig's and now Rosie's. It's got to be terribly emasculating to know that your power is fake. They're scared to death that we'll notice and figure the louder they yell, the more it hides what true wimps and sell-outs they really are. Thankfully, that only worked for a little while for most of us who are here. :)

Obviously there was much more discussion about the situations. I just didn't want to post a dissertation - especially since it was merely an example and not meant to become a topic in and of itself, or to generate questions of my integrity. Bob Moynihan kicked a woman out of TWI because she refused to speak in tongues. Because she refused to speak in tongues, it was a violation of TWI doctrine and she wasn't "officially" born again. Why would we want an "empty" - just body & soul hitchhiker taking up our breathing space? There were several meetings privately and with the whole fellowship regarding this decision. Bob Moynihan called our parents "unbelievers" many times during our pre-marital counselling and the conversations were very clear as to what Bob meant. Second guess me all you want, but I know what I'm talking about. I was there!! There is no question as to what Bob meant. Ask my ex - ask the folks who were in my fellowship at the time - he11, ask anyone from my limb what Bob's position on SIT was. It's not a secret. Bob is notorious for dragging dirty laundry of people before the whole branch in my area. That's how I learned about a man cheating on his wife.... details - who he was screwing, where they were screwing, how often they were screwing..... how effed up the guy is..... how he deserves to burn in hell but won't because he's 'born again'...... all of this said in front of his wife and kids..... Believe me, Bob Moynihan is not one to mince words. If someone thinks I'm wrong, HE should contact Bob. I'm very certain of my statements and stand behind them.

Once again, WW, you so succinctly and eloquently say what I was thinking! I wonder if our emotions are that "still small voice". When we pay attention to them, why we're feeling a certain way and act in a way to get or stay on the positive side of the continuum, we are healthier, we make proper decisions about our lives. TWI didn't want us to experience emotions unless they furthered the agenda of TWI. "Control your mind" meant "don't bother me; you're being inconvenient." I think, if we look back on the times we experienced "negative" emotions in TWI, those were times we were being manipulated and suppressing concerns, thoughts and observances that would have led us out of the belly of the monster. We "faked" excitement and enthusiasm because it's the emotion that was expected of us.

Good topic, SOGWAP! :) Ya know, I was born and raised in a very small southern town. The kids I graduated from high school with are the same kids I was in daycare with, went to kindergarten and church with. We were like one huge family, closer to some than others, but we mostly all pulled together to help each other. I grew up taking for granted friendships and being a friend. I have always tried to be a good friend and going out on a limb, doing whatever my "friend" needed or wanted. It was a rude awakening to realize that everyone doesn't treasure friends like I do/did. I was so lonely in TWI because I knew those folks wouldn't help me and didn't care about me, really. One of my "friends" in TWI was left in prison for days because the BC wouldn't bail her out and told everyone who called to check on her that he was taking care of everything. It's a long story, but she should have NEVER been in prison to begin with. Even the Moynihans ignored the situation, left her in there and didn't even check on her when she was released. It took her roommate coming back to town three days later and "bucking the system" - going against the BC's commands and bailing her out. If I had known, I would have bailed her out, but the "closed system" of TWI made sure nobody who would help her knew about the situation. This, despite the fact that she "turned me in" several times for going on the internet, saying things against TWI leadership, etc. I wanted to help people so many times, but had my hands tied by my ex. Now that I'm free from TWIt brains, I am able to help folks when I want to. I've reconnected with quite a few friends and THOSE are the true friends - those are the folks who I can call at 3am if I need help. My neighbors have done exactly that a few times over the past two years. Sadly, though, experiences like we had in TWI have the potential to jade us. It has, on the other hand, taught us to be more discriminating about who we share our lives with and how much we give to certain relationships. I'm still too trusting and too open with folks, but I reckon I subscribe to Tom Strange's signature, "I'd rather have something to regret than nothing to remember." Snow Cone??

(((((Patriot))))) Dear, NO!!! :( I'm so sorry! I'll PM you with the name(s). Yet another irony found in TWIt brains. It's okay to have boring rote services, boring rote fellowships & teachings when you "put heart and believing into it", yet it's NOT okay to recite "The Lord's Prayer". I remember so many times listening to craiggers and moynihan yelling about the absurdity of organized religion repeating it over and over when Jesus clearly says to pray "like this", meaning "as an example". I would rather repeat The Lord's Prayer over and over and over again than have to listen to the long, boring services in NK.

Perspective, John. Perception is reality for that individual - it is not necessarily truth. Ask any police officer - he'll tell you there are three sides to every story - his story, her story and what really happened. Heck, even vee pee says that "experience is no guarantee for truth" and "people can be sincere, but sincerely wrong." If you take away from or change "the word of vee pee" you no longer have "the word of vee pee". Are ya gonna answer my questions?

:unsure: I dunno if that's good or bad. Henry Winkler and Grace Slick share my birthday.

How do y'all learn this stuff?? I've never heard of this at all! Should I start doing it for my Mazda? How often? How much? Just plain rubbing alcohol? I'm truly amazed at all the things I learn here at the cafe!

TWI was like a vacuum of scripture. We’ve talked on here many times about how isolated our reading and study was. It was the King James Version of the Bible or TWIt published material or nothing. Even today, TWIts are confined to TWIt material. How much can one learn from reading the same things over and over and over again? Most churches are stuck in the same rut, for the most part. They actually use a lot of “outside” material such as “Forty Days of Purpose” that so many had programs around, but the main source/topic/what have you for all their study, teachings, classes, etc. is the Bible. I think this is why I have become even more respectful of Judaism, having learned so much from Abigail about how many other sources they study, how much discussion and debate is encouraged, how they encourage study and mastery of them. The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the many other ancient manuscripts out there are ignored by the typical religion and it’s a shame, imo. When I first left TWI I was more intent on re-evaluating the teachings and I believe some of that was necessary to eliminate so much way-brain. But then I learned from another GSpotter about some great authors and more about these scrolls. Scrolls I had always been curious about but never “allowed” to even look into. Blasphemy! Sacrilegious! We don’t need anything but our King James and TWIt lit!

In TWI we were taught to ignore our emotions. “Emotions are the icing on the cake.” “You don’t ‘follow your heart’.” “Control your mind!” I recently watched “The Secret” and in it they discuss the way emotions are supposed to work and I really liked the approach they took. It makes more sense to me and seems to be quite logical. They put emotions on a scale from Best (Love) to Worst (Hate) and say that you live your life in such a way that you stay on the “good side” of the emotional scale. For example: All of us have times in TWI where we didn’t “feel good” about something, but did it anyway. Looking back, now, we see that the reason we felt that way was because it was b.s., bad, wrong, harmful to ourselves or others, etc. IF we had trusted our emotions and acted/reacted according to how we were feeling, we could have avoided a lot of the pain. I know many times, especially early on in my involvement, I felt “uncomfortable” about something. I couldn’t put my finger on exactly why, but instead of backing off or saying something about it, I just “went with the flow”. Perhaps I wouldn’t have gotten involved so heavily and stayed so long had I paid closer attention to and respected myself more to trust those feelings. I think the reason we were taught to ignore those emotions was because they know they are full of it. They know they could never have gotten the WC to control and treat people the way they do/did if they couldn’t get the WC to ignore their feelings. Getting the lemmings like me to control ours was easier because they didn’t ask as much from us as from the WC. (Not that they didn’t ask for an awful lot from us.)

Uncle Harry Day is yet another vee pee thing that craiggers did away with. <_< According to craiggers: We are to "burn the chaff" in our lives every day and not save all that junk, devil spirit influences and evil in our lives for a whole year. How stupid to do that! <_<

TLB, were you at the Weenie Roast? :huh:

Cynic, sorry, but that's just too long and I'd rather "discuss" the topic than merely be given something to read on a topic. I am glad that you had the discussion and that you're open-minded enough to change it because of a discussion. :) David, they are just questions - I've asked this question a few times on here and, yes, during the 90's, a person was considered to not really be born again if they did not speak in tongues. :) I believe that it may have been more "enforced" (for lack of a better word) in some areas than in others, but in my area, Bob Moynihan kicked a lady out of my fellowship because she wouldn't speak in tongues - she didn't want to and didn't believe in it. He, furthermore, called my parents and my ex husband's parents "unbelieving" because they don't speak in tongues. My purpose for asking was not to derail the thread or to change the discussion to SIT specifically. I was just curious as to what Johniam thinks based on his previous post.

Congrats and Happy Anniversary, Oak!!! And a hearty thanks for helping me "out".

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, HIWAY29!!

That's really scary, Linda! :( I hope the guy made it out safely, too. Talk is cheap in my book anymore. Folks can say anything they want; it's the actions, reputation, character and fruit that I pay attention to.

"You are welcome to leave now" - this was the mantra we received 15-20 minutes after everyone had shared what "really blessed" them about the teaching that evening at fellowship. Abi's correct that we were not allowed to talk about anything BUT the fellowship teaching or something else that had recently been taught. I didn't mind not having refreshments in the 90's - it meant I didn't have to spend any more of my money buying crap for TWI. It also meant folks would be leaving quicker. Our fellowship coordinator was extremely long winded and we very, very seldom had fellowships that were less than 1 1/2 hours. So many times the friggin' announcements were longer than the teaching. Other times the teaching was sooooo friggin' long. Nobody kept to the time limit in my fellowship (except the ex and I, of course ). I couldn't wait to leave once it was over.

No doubt about that, Waysider. We were not only free advertising, free recruiters, we were also free meeting location providers, free labor, free ...... I take it back - we weren't free anything - we paid them to treat us like dirt, take advantage of us and use us in every way possible. My point, though, was that, despite TWI saying the purpose was to help us grow (and some folks buying that line :blink: ) TWI was not helping us to grow by mandating door to door witnessing, much less any of the other forced witnessing events. The WOW and WD programs are different because folks knew that would be expected. The rest of us didn't know and the dirty, underhanded tricks to spring it on us at the last minute were just plain wrong. Furthermore, I have no need to overcome a fear of going door to door. Door to door selling, witnessing, etc. is not something I ever have to do in my lifestyle. Besides that, I think fear was the last emotion anyone was experiencing regarding door to door - disgust, exasperation, embarrassment, anger, humiliation, hate, indifference, excitement, enjoyment...... just about anything else, but not fear. The only thing I was afraid of was knocking on the door of someone I know. I would have just died if that had happened. If folks are excited, learning new things and enjoying the company of one another, the sharing and outreach is a natural extension of that. TWI didn't merely "encourage" folks to witness they forced folks to selling classes. That's not auxano growth the way they teach it. Just one more hypocritical thing about TWI.

Johniam, do you believe that one has to speak in tongues? If someone does not speak in tongues, do you consider that person to not be born again? How about someone who not only does not SIT, but also does not care to?

Sunesis and Tom, thank you!!! This is all very new information to me and helps me to piece together aspects of TWI that I haven't been able to prior to this. So much for "auxano" growth, eh? Instead of allowing God to work within people and instead of allowing people to overcome fears on their own initiative, vee pee decided to push them into it. THIS is why TWI quit growing - it wasn't from joy or as the result of a natural response, it was forced.... Just like door to door witnessing. What profit is it to force folks to do that when it's not natural for them to do so? What did that kind of program accomplish? Not much other than an embarrassingly small success rate and many, many unhappy folks.

Night Train Express might be even better! Strawberry Hill goes good with anything as I recall, not too bad coming back up either....I hear. Bum Wine suggests Cisco. I've never heard of that. I might have to splurge and by myself a bottle to compare with MD 20/20, Boone's Farm and Night Train. ^_^

Well, I do have to say I did get prayers answered while doing the door to door crap witnessing. I prayed to God that I would never run into anyone I knew and HE answered that prayer! Catcup, you know darn well common sense was NOT allowed in TWI! Blind obedience was requisite - why else would they pound into our head to follow leadership because they were appointed by Gawd and, even if they were wrong, Gawd would honor our obedience. Our own common sense and brains could be screaming that the TWIt was full of SHI+, but we were expected to ignore that and boldly obey with no fear. :blink: Yeah, right. That's the last time I take someone else's word over my own gut and brain.

I'll bring the kegs! JustLoafing, what do you prefer to be called? Man of Dog for our Days and Man of Beer for our Nights?

Spending an hour in da verd first thing in the morning. My ex was getting up at 4AM to make sure he had his requisite time in. I'd much rather have had a pleasant, well rested husband instead of one who "fulfilled his duty" and was grumpy because of lack of sleep.

My ex was a sniper and police officer, the stress of the job requires a sick sense of humor, imo. You should hear some of the jokes those guys tell! NOT many of them can be shared with the general public because of how hard it is to understand the humor unless you're intimately familiar with the details of the duty. OFM, I'm sure there are quite a few jokes and pranks you could share that would make our hair curl.