Belle

And this is a godly organization, how? Why on earth would anyone in their right mind submit to this kind of control, secrecy and extortion?

Excellent observation, Sushi. Yes, my Daddy was very logical, very structured and very business-like in the way he ran the family. Mama was the emotional, lovey, nurturing one. So, naturally, I was very impressed with what I was hearing and the logical presentation of the material and the feeling that I was "one up" on my Daddy when it came to Bible knowledge. I also related to the domineering, take-control mannerisms of craiggers and then married someone just like them. Why can't we recognize those traits that we don't like but identify all to well with? Is it a comfort thing? A familiar thing? How come it takes soooo long to recognize the pattern?

Didn't they used to always quote Uncle Harry as saying the Bible was just plain common horse sense? Seems they need to get some new horses in them thar stables. :P

I dunno, but I'll wager that the "membership" of all those groups is ten times the "membership" of TWI these days.

Excellent! When we are required to be "likemindead" at the expense of discussion, debate, individuality, self-expression, questioning and all the "normal" thoughts people have - we do become brain dead. That's what TWI wanted, what Hitler and the others wanted - (Can't wait to see your elaboration on this WW!) - When people are no longer allowed to question things, debate or look deeper into subjects, they are more easily controlled and manipulated. Why else would vee pee ask folks to give up tv, radio and newspapers? Craiggers yelled that if we needed to know something HE would tell us, but that we shouldn't be wasting our time and brain cells on that egg sucking worldly sh1t. Another reason why I have thoroughly enjoyed learning more from you greasespots and your paths, journeys and ventures into the big universe of religion, spirituality and thinking. :) When people are free to express themselves, question others, debate (nicely), and just plain discuss things - we can learn so much, even if we don't agree with it; it still offers a different perspective and encourages appreciation for what we do believe and so much more.

I concur! TWI took the heart out of the music and the folks who wanted to express themselves through their music. They kill something genuine and then build rules around it and expect folks to duplicate what came naturally. You just can't force that kind of stuff. It's painfully obvious when they do go to great lengths like that. I remember at the Advanced Class there were some men with incredibly awesome voices and contagious exuberance. They would sing impromptu whenever we had breaks and they started a few sing alongs where everyone was drawn to the area and sang with joy in their hearts and smiles on their faces.... just a wonderful time - unscheduled, unplanned and unstructured. Well, Mosquedo and the other leaders put a real ugly spin on that and stopped all the fun. You could feel the air in the room deflate while Mosquedo went off on his tirade in the cafeteria. It's not just the music they've done that to, either. It's the fun things -gatherings, game nights, coffee houses, etc. Anything TWI does now is just going through the motions, not really full of any feelings, genuine love, care, concern, glory to God, etc. They try to fake hillside sing alongs, but it's just hollow, fake and leaves you empty and longing for the days when those things were real and filling.

JBarrax, I celebrate your life today!!! Thank you for all that you've done for me and us working through PFAL and the cobwebs of our brains!! Happiest of Birthdays!!! I hope it's as special as you are!!!

And, as my Mama always says - "If you want sympathy, you can find it between sh1t and syphilis in the dictionary."

Obviously the debt issue is still a big issue with those who are still involved with TWI. They haven't changed their stance one iota and they continue to dodge questions or provide vague generalities with no concrete "how to" teachings on this issue. So much for the "We're a 'how to' ministry" - it's a "do as we say without asking any questions ministry". This is still the number one question I get asked about in private messages - and, WAYGB, I get asked about it quite frequently. Lately, though, there have been a lot of PMs to me on it, and that's why I'm bringing these to the top instead of merely providing the links in the PM like I have been doing.

If the new lurkers (and old lurkers for that matter ) haven't read Napkinlady/Chris Jordan's research paper on debt, I highly recommend it. She follows TWI's "research guidelines" to a "T" which, sadly and predictably, can't be said about Rico Spaghetti's.

To the top by request. BTW, now my house is valued at over $249,000. I've since been promoted; received a very nice raise; bought my dream car; spent most of the summer visiting family; attending reunions and reuniting with old "true blue" friends. I can read any book I want to. I can discuss topics of our choice with friends. I can even get into heated debates if I so choose and I'm allowed to - gasp! - change my mind if I learn something new. Hmmmm.......wonder what the TWIts have to compare to that. Based on this transcript - not even intelligent teachings that stay on topic. :blink:

Then, this is why you were misunderstood - you posted off topic on the wrong thread. THIS thread is about the impact of the internet on exposing evil organizations like TWI. Well, carrying out the Lord's command to love one another and "producting real and meaningful friendships" are two totally different things, imo. The Good Samaritan didn't make real and meaningful friends with the man he helped for all we know... he merely took care of the man's needs at the time. Same with Jesus, actually. He didn't make "real and meaningful friendships" with everyone he met. He just "shared the love" so to speak. Actually, I have helped quite a few folks here at the Cafe (if the PM's I get are any indication). I do post here to help people and to "share the love" as we are commanded. I have even made "real and meaningful friendships" with not a few folks on here, but most of those are through them helping me and not vice versa. I believe you get out of it what you put into it. *shrug* I also believe in balance and when I read posts like yours it seems awfully condescending and extreme - not taking into account the fact that most of us are NOT Tony Whatshisname, nor anything like him. Limit God to what you think he's capable of, but I won't. I've seen him work through the internet just like he can and does in "real life" way too many times. I firmly believe that TWI and organizations like it - including Scientology - have been severely hurt by the advent of the Internet. I also believe that our younger generations are much smarter and much more inclined to check out all sides of an issue before turning their lives over to a group that attempts to control people the way they do. Heck, all we need now is a Tom Cruise kind of character to add to the bad publicity TWI gets.

welp, that about sums it up rather nicely and accurately! Welcome, Imagine!! Could I buy you a Mint Julep?

What makes people in TWI, especially leaders, live with the sacrifice of doctrinal accuracy in lieu of being like-minded? I am aware of those on the inside still clinging to a naive notion that most TWIt leaders are "good people" albeit deceived and misguided, therefore not recognizing the contradiction of how they’re living. The thing that seems to keep wrong doctrine and wrong behavior perpetuated is the idea that unity is more important than truth. They read I Cor 1:10 and say how important it is to be of the same mind and same judgment – but the underlying message is - hold fast to the status quo - because we are supposed to be likeminded - and one day, hopefully, it will change. I wonder if this is a philosophy promoted by the Moynihans and many others who do recognize what is wrong but refuse to push for change. I know for a fact that Moynihan cowers in the face of some of the folks at hq despite knowing that they are bloody wrong. I know I, too, have been wrong in the past - especially blindly following craiggers. I also know I fought the doctrinal errors and legalistic controlling bullsh1t for years – sometimes very blatantly and boldly, other times, very subtly – none of it worked because they don’t really want change and they don’t really care about fixing the problems. Some folks on the inside really believe that most of these Way leaders are not knowingly manipulative. They feel like they have bought into something, and spent much of their life promoting a thing which they secretly doubt. If anyone challenges what they believe or even asks too many questions (questions don't have to equal a challenge, do they?) they may be tolerant for a bit but will turn accusative and hostile. This is their self defense because they simply cannot back their arguments with logic. I think most of us have encountered this. Bottom line, they just accept, they don't ask questions because they are terrified of the answers they might find. There’s really no excuse for deceiving and lying to God's people; enslaving God's people; bringing them to and keeping them involved with a group that they know is pure evil and they know deep down is wrong. If they want to stick their head in the sand - that's one thing, but continuing to deceive the elect of God? Not anything I want to have to answer for at the Bema. I bring this up because I’m quite aware of some new lurkers who are still involved with TWI but beginning to water down the kool-aid. Any advice from the counter or the booths?

Cool, it's in St. Pete, so it would be a two hour drive.... but that's really no excuse seeing as how I've been here since 1991, is it? Really gonna have to get my rear in gear and head down there.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: ???

Thanks, Chas & Skip. :) Chas, I'm definitely going to look further into this and see what is exactly entailed. From that article it appears as though only the religion of the employee is exempt from discrimination laws and not all the other stuff.... including medical status. I know for a fact that someone in my area applied for WC training and it was a very big deal to get her accepted because of her perceived disability. It took a very long time and lots of "meetings" and "discussions" and even special "visitations" by her to determine her worthiness and eligibility for the training program. I seriously suspect that the only reason she was accepted is because she's a very bright girl and would have had grounds for (and means to carry out) a discrimination lawsuit should they have denied her application. I'm sure that there must be examples where folks HAVE been discriminated against for reasons they shouldn't have been. I also wonder if the requirement of being a WC grad or AC grad is considered discrimination since the religious beliefs are the only thing exempt - not necessarily the degree or depth of religious training - certainly the AC or WC training is not related to how to clean toilets, chauffer the BOD or to chop beets in the kitchen....

I LOVE Escher's work!! Such incredible talent! It must have been a great time, Jim!! I've never been to one of his exhibits. Nor to Dali's and it's just down the road a piece. I need to put those higher up on my "to do" list.

Happiest of Birthdays, Trefor!! I hope it's absolutely wondermous!!!!

BB, that very well could have been one of my co-workers and his boyfriend on the way to a Madonna concert. I helped him with his costume. Did he also have on a black derby and "Clockwork Orange" eye makeup?

We had a set for every class of craig's - WAP - Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced, Defeating the Adversary, Way Disciples had their own, each fellowship tried to have their own, too. I have a terrible memory for things that I honestly see no value in memorizing scripture and other stuff you can look up somewhere (at least, I think that's the case, because some things I am very good at remembering). I despised them forcing us to memorize scriptures and definitions of things like SIT, Interpretation, etc... Especially craig's long, drawn out, long-winded, big worded definitions. Craig and my ex have photographic memories and can look at something once and remember every minute detail of it, no matter what it is. Having a husband like that made it even worse for me..... I called my ex a "walking Bible". Nowadays, though, I'm surprised at how many scripture I have retained. I attribute it to the rote repitition - I mean, how could you not memorize some of the scriptures the way they were in every - single - teaching over and over and over and over again? Heck, even Einstein said, "Why memorize what you can look up?"

Some TWIts used to live in a hotel?? WTF????

At least any innie lurkers now know how to get around the pressure to go way disciple or to go on staff at HQ and the innie staff members can just start accumulating lots of medical bills and they'll quickly find their way to freedom. Where WOULD one go about alerting the proper authorities about said discrimination?

I think as the "old guard" dies off, so will the population of TWI. Kids are not going to stay involved with that kind of control and manipulation, especially with their propensity for visiting places like myspace. Heck, even the TWIt kids on there have some very....ummmmm.... questionable content for TWIts on their blogs. <_< The kids at HQ are the only ones really sheltered from the "real world" and, as they get older, especially if they go to college, they'll be exposed to things that will make them think. They'll also, most likely, start to want to have "normal" families, with houses, kids, stable, permanent addresses, etc. TWI will continue to dwindle away to a very small contingent living a compound lifestyle off the millions that we provided for them, unless the government comes in and rightfully (and hopefully) takes that away from them. And, RR, I get what you're saying about books. ;) The printing of books and making information readily available to the general public made manipulation and control extremely difficult for those in charge and caused no small stir. That's why the printing of the Bible is such a big deal in history.

Can they even discriminate on the basis of someone NOT being involved with TWI? I mean....bear with me here and try to not laugh too hard.....what if someone from NK who has absolutely no interest in TWI applied for a job there? Could they turn them down merely because they aren't Advanced Class grads? What on earth does having taken a class have to do with cleaning toilets? Definitel sounds like they walk a mighty fine line and sooner or later it's got to come back to bite them in the arse.