Belle

Interesting article in Psychology Today that states, in short: Is it possible that we can't help it?

Not to my face.... but it was said. Maybe they were correct, though.

V -- e -- r -- y S -- l -- o -- w -- l -- y You have always sounded like a very rational, logical, sound young lady and, as usual, you're handling the situation perfectly. :) If it's any consolation, my ex still refuses to believe that vee pee died from cancer and said, "IF, any of those lies about him sexually abusing women were true (which they're not) - that was in the past and is totally irrelevant to The Present Truth". I'm going to puke now...... edited for formatting

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, ACT2! YOU ARE TRULY ONE CLASS ACT!

HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS, MARK!!

Yah.... making a scene like that, JJ, doesn't do any good. Like kenwas says, it *can* bring them closer together. Better to let anyone you're close to know that you'd like to stay in touch with them and let them ask you questions when/if they feel comfortable doing so. The internet is pretty user friendly these days and it's easy enough to find out the truth about TWI if someone really wants to. In my opinion, most people still "in" are either on the fence or they have no desire to leave (whether they know the truth or not). edited to "add" a word - no "changing" a word - no "leaving out" a word

If you want to see first hand what TWI taught leadership to do regarding really helping people, read this incredible story of survival: There I was It's not about sexual abuse, but it is about abuse and neglect of someone obviously in need of some professional help. A couple of snips:

OK, there's a search function in the top right corner of the banner and if you search on the word "offshoot" you'll find more info than you can read in one sitting. Here are some that may be of interest to you: One of the more unusual offshoots How many offshoots are there? Success of the offshoots Offshoots...splinters...what have you

Combo, reading the book really is the best way to understand how and why the plan works. Most people find that after being on it for a while, you really don't miss the bread and things that were primarily in your diet before going low carb. Protein and fats fill you up on less food and they take longer to digest so you don't get the crashes and "OMG, I'm so eff'n hungry" feelings you get when eating carbs. It IS something that a person can easily do for the rest of their life. Some other similar diet plans are "Sugar Busters", "Protein Power" and "South Beach" - most people learn the basics and then tailor the way they eat to fit with their own food preferences and lifestyle. I love to cook and try new things, so experimenting with spices, ethnic dishes and fresh herbs is always fun for me and keeps the meals from getting boring and monotonous. If you like to cook, Kaylyn's Kitchen is an excellent resource for low carb recipes. I make her egg muffins almost every week. She's a South Beach eater and here's a link to Pasta Queen - she lost half her body weight on South Beach. Guys, Atkins is updating their website and they are giving away prizes to people who submit photos and their personal Atkins success story. Details here.

Welcome, Heather! I hope you find some long lost friends. In the meantime, enjoy some coffee and sweets while you peruse the cafe. First order's always on the house. :)

I respectfully disagree with you and Rocky on this one. :)This is a great article why It is so much more complicated than "just move more and eat less". There are hormonal, genetic, metabolic reasons why that doesn't work. It may work for some people, but it is not a blanket solution. Calories are not created equal - the type of calories one eats is very important to a successful weight loss plan. Different bodies process calories in different ways. Insulin plays a huge role in how much of our food is converted to fat. How our cells respond to insulin. Cortisol and stress plays a part. It's just way more complicated than that. If just eating less and moving more works for you, that's great! It's just not that easy for everyone.

Actually, from what I remember, anyone going into the corps was required to be tested for STDs as part of the physical and medical clearance.

I did not know about that. You would think that would have opened some eyes and gotten something done to stop it. That it didn't speaks volumes. They did that and you and your buddies Good question: Indeed.... it seems that there should be more that could be done should the same situation be going on today in an organization. Is there, really? I don't know. Indeed it IS a cult. Look at how many people did try to be Prince Valiant - as much or as loudly as they knew how - and it got nowhere. Many people spoke up when they left, to the best of my knowledge, they DID tell people what they knew was going on (as much as they knew anyway). POP paper.... people talking.... people who did confront vee pee directly..... nothing anyone did try worked.It didn't work because of all the information control, intimidation and multitudes of genuinely "good people" who were in TWI. Like weeds tangled up with beautiful grape vines.... it's hard, sometimes, to see the weeds and to extract them from the vines. Some people were very happy with TWI and wouldn't/couldn't believe something horrible was going on. Some people questioned things or had private concerns but the "benefits" they were getting from being involved with TWI outweighed those concerns. Some people were so blinded that they believed the lies and cover up excuses. Some folks knew what was going on but it didn't affect them directly so they didn't want to get involved. Any time someone made a valiant effort at stopping, protecting or exposing the treachery, they were quickly and effectively shut down. What would/should we tell someone in that same situation today somewhere? I don't know. It's much easier to communicate and expose things today thanks to the world wide web, but those people have to be ready to face up to the truth of the abuse going on. As we've seen... not everyone wants to. Even today there are people who cover, excuse and justify the actions of vee pee, craiggers and their henchmen. I mis-read your intention, I'm sorry. :) I thought it sounded a little callous and unexpected from you, so I apologize. Indeed it would be nice to know what to advise someone today who might find themselves in that situation. I guess if we had an answer to that TWI, Scientology and other abusive groups would no longer be around.

Rhino, so as to not derail this thread, I've answered you on your thread. :) DWBH, you're right. I try to remember that y'all were just kids... kids with no formal training and thrown into some pretty intense, serious and dire situations with little to no training or experience helping people with real live "life or death" situations. It had to be rough and very disconcerting. What vee pee taught sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in real life.... Where's Oakspear? His signature used to say, "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is" There are some horrible tales of people getting wrong or no professional help for issues that clearly needed it. I used to wonder how Dottie Moynihan sleeps at night. She has counseled many women raped by vee pee and craig and other leaders and she continues to support and cover for those evil wolves in sheep's clothing.... her husband, too. Thanks so much, DWBH for this thread. I have more to share, but it's waaaayyyy past my bedtime.

I dunno, Rhino. You're talking about teenagers and very young people with very little life experiences being put in very trying and complicated scenarios.... scenarios with adults who are very adept at manipulation and intimidation..... Hard to say that... Hard to say I would have done anything different despite my rather bold personality and "in your face" tendencies. Heck, I succumbed to it in my early 20's and I was as rebellious as they come. *shrug* Throw God and the "man of God" profile/pedestal into the mix and I think most rational thinking goes out the window. I know my little brother kept telling my very concerned parents that they would tell me one too many times what to do and how to live and I'd rebel. He knew me better than I and my parents knew me.... maybe he just had more faith in me than we did. Regardless, it took 10 years for me to do what he said I would and 9 years past when I first considered it but was too .... too.... scared.... too worried... too something to act on what I felt in my gut. Hindsight is 20/20 and, while it would be nice to think we'd behave any differently, the truth is we probably wouldn't... maybe we would and maybe we could have been the ones to make a difference and that we could have brought TWI to its knees if we had been in their shoes. I doubt it, but it's nice to think it could happen. Throwing stones this late in the game doesn't really do much good, imo - it is what it is. All we can do now is try to make amends and help as much as we can to heal the broken hearted, no? All of us are doing the best we can. I firmly believe that.

Rascal, I second Rocky's congrats! And, as a mom, there's got to be great pleasure in seeing your daughter make wise decisions like that. :) Rocky, actually, I *did* say that. A few of those new marathon runners wanted to lose weight and were shocked and disappointed that they did not lose anything given how much they were running. The one gal who did lose weight was also doing intensive weight training in addition to the marathon training. There are many, many benefits to cardio exercise and the extensive tests that they ran on the subjects documented some of them - increased lung capacity, flexibility, better blood pressure, less stress-related symptoms, etc.... Weight loss, however, is not one of the benefits of cardio. The link Sudo posted is great for showing the health benefits. I'm saying cardio is important - just that it's irrelevant when it comes to losing weight. :) Ron, sorry about your shoulder. Hope it heals up quickly. I'm not hungry when I first get up, but a few hours later I'll have breakfast of a coupla eggs and some meat, maybe a handful of blueberries. I find that I'm able to eat a small-ish lunch later in the afternoon and then a much smaller dinner meal that way. If I don't eat breakfast then I find that once I do get hungry, I'm hungry all day long. Sudo, I'd not "force" yourself to eat breakfast but maybe "try" having a little something even if it's several hours after getting up. But, like we've all said here.... everyone is different and we have to figure out what works for us. Obviously you've been very successful with what you're doing, so I'd say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Cool post, Socks. :) Makes sense. Thanks! Dunno if this fits with the topic but I'm gonna throw it out there..... We had a guy in our area who went by the nickname "Rudy" and, after many really ugly confrontations with Pau1 Brook$ and Moneyhands - we were told to never call him "Rudy" again - that there were devil spirits hiding behind that name. We had to all start calling him "Bill", his real name. The poor guy was put on probation quite a few times and kept coming back for more.... He was still in and had just gone 'Way Disciple' when I left.

Well, I went out quietly, but there were waves of unrest and insurgency building up to it. I was "allowed" to "take a break" from TWI activities and never returned.

You can find a labyrinth near you to walk at this site. I understand it to be a great way to meditate and "quiet the soul". Like Todd, I think TWI is more of a maze.... a maze designed by evil men and women designed to frustrate with dead ends and false turns. All we can do is be here for them. People have to come to their own conclusions and some never will come to see or even acknowledge the pain, suffering, abuse and evil of TWI. It's like that saying, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

KEWL BEANS!!! Thanks, Love!

Wow, +odd. Dunno how I missed that - or maybe wasn't ready to see - anyway.... Makes sense... I've never thought of rites of passage as permission to transform. I *have* seen it as a "shoving to change" though. "You're 18 now, be an adult" kind of thing. What rites do you think we've lost today that are the reason adults are acting like children?

Rascal, I don't know who you are speaking to, but I'll bite. You know darn well that I have been the one relentlessly hounded at one time - we talked about it at length over the phone many times, remember? And, I maintain that everyone who frequents this forum knows that those kinds of statements are b.s. and we are mature, intelligent and responsible enough to consider the source. That you don't trust us when we tell you that is .... well, wrong and insulting. See?? You know it works! You ignore them, they find someone else to pick on - If every person they decide to pick on ignores them, they have no fuel for their fire.... it's really a very simple concept that works. No one is telling you to shut up, except maybe them. I'm just saying that I wish people would stick to the actual topic of a particular thread and ignore those low pot shots, especially when they come from the same trouble-makers. Say all you want, just don't engage the bullies. How's that been workin' for ya? Wouldn't it be better to just report them to Paw and the moderators? Yup. I've had enough alright. I love ya, but we disagree on this. :)

Very interesting, OC. I don't have anything to add just at the moment, but I will. :) Thanks!

Sorry, Abi, I'm just so "over it" all.... (Don't we have some "just get over it" threads around here? ) Seriously, though, I'm kinda like Twinky - I'm sick of threads deteriorating because people won't just ignore one another - they continue to engage in the same d@mn fights they've been having, like you said, for EIGHT FRIGGIN' YEARS. They ruin perfectly good threads and I'm just to the point where I don't really give a sh1t anymore. I've begged some people to just ignore each other but they have to get their say in - or the last word - no matter what. I'm tired of trying to get adults to act like adults - it's futile. I might pass by and look in the window, but anymore I only slide into a booth with my gum in hand if there's conversation that I feel is reasonable and/or fun - I just don't have the energy or patience anymore for the petty stuff.

(((((WG))))) You know darn well there's gonna be a funeral, so you might as well tell 'em how to do it. You are very important to so many people and very loved. The TRUE GOD - not the god TWI and those "Vine" people worship - loves and cares for you more than you can ever know. My body donated to science so there's no body for the family to have to deal with. They are to have a keg party and roast - I've given folks plenty to laugh about in my lifetime and I suspect that by the time I'm gone, they will have no excuse for not coming up with something to bring up and laugh at. I want all laughter and no crying allowed. When my aunt died I sat at her funeral laughing because I knew Susan would have a cow if she knew they were having a traditional funeral for her. She had quit going to church many years earlier and was more into metaphysical stuff. The last thing she would have wanted for her funeral was a "Christian" minister and traditional hymns. BUT, she never told anyone so that's what she got. It's really helpful for the family, too. It's so hard to think when a loved one dies. Knowing what they would want and how they'd like to be remembered helps ease some of that burden.