Jbarrax

Sharon do us all a favor and learn to have a linear conversation. You keep repeating a statement that NO ONE is arguing. I never said God doesn't love homosexuals. God loves everyone because God is love. What I did is point out the illogic of your statement. You, who have been arguing that homosexuality is not sinful, quoted Genesis 1:31 All I did was remind you that the context of that verse is God putting Adam and Eve in the garden. Basically, you quoted a verse that supports my point of view. So, in a mature and well-thought out reply, you revert to your mindless chant about love--an argument you are having not with me, but with yourself--and then add a childish and obnoxious graphic. The logic and eloquence of your arguments are absolutely withering. JerryB

I was talking rebutting Garth's assertion that all mental or psychological disorders are entirely natural in origin. I said that, just because you can medicate a schizophrenic and moderate their behavior doesn't mean spirits are not involved. It's not an either-or situation. The connections and relationships between the physical and the spiritual are such that if you can alter the physical aspect of a mental illness, you can disrupt what the spirit is working on. Peace JerryB

What God made, was Adam and Eve. Hetersexuality, don't ya hnow. If God had put two guys in the garden and then said it was all very good, we would be having a very different discussion Peace JerryB

Yes it is. That was just one of the many indications that Craig had disqualified himself as a minister. I remember one of the craziest statements he made around that time was encouraging people to act on "genuine spiritual suspicion." What the he!! is that? If you're walking by the spirit you don't need "suspicion". You get revelation from God. If you receive revelation, you don't suspect something you KNOW it. But knowing someone has a spiritual problem doesn't mean you automatically publicize it and attack the person. You shouldn't even automatically cast out the spirit, because the person may not be ready to close his mind to that spirit and then they'll end up in a Matthew 12:45 situation. But I digress Craig had already lost it when he went on these tirades. Although I don't condone homosexuality, I certainly don't condone this kind of hate-mongering and carnality. Peace JerryB

Cool stuff Lovematters. Thanks for posting. JerryB

Note to Lilly; EX10 didn't say her daughter is gay. She said, "My most precious 15 year old daughter is having a hard time with Christianity and going to church. Reason being, she has some gay friends. She says, she can't understand why all the Christians shun the gay kids at school." In the subsequent discussion, Outofdafog said her daughter is gay. Note to Trefor. You make a good point about the shellfish. But take a good look at Romans chapter one. Homosexuality is referred to as "vile affection" "that which is against nature", and "error" which results in personal consequences. The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality cannot honestly be tossed aside by singling out one word in Leviticus or comparing it to eating non-kosher food. Note to Garth. YOu asked why I quote the Bible if I'm not a fundamentalist. Good question sir. I don't belive the Bible is inerrant and without contradiction, so I think that disqualifies me as a fundamentalist. But I do believe that it's full of truth. And I have experienced physical healing on more than one occasion simply by meditating on scripture. Therefore I believe it's more than somebody's outdated opinion. And there's that little matter of speaking in tongues, which is explained only in the Bible, and manifested in my life. Sooooo, it doesn't fit together perfectly according to my logic, but that doesn't mean I have to discount everything it says. And even if it is only the opinions of Peter, Paul, & company, I'd have to say I trust the opinions of chosen Apostles of Jesus Christ much more than my own, or those of the average psychiatrist. In short, I've seen lots of logical conundrums in the Bible, but I've seen too much benefit from its words to be able to count them as worthless. Peace JerryB

Has anyone here suggested that? Actually, yes. Sharon suggested it with the question she posed to Galen and me---three times. That's how all this got started. Sharon thinks that if my son comes home and says he's in love with another boy I should say, "Gee son, I don't think that's right. The Bible says homosexuality is "against nature", a "vile affection", and "reprobate". But what the heck. I love you! Bring this fine young man in so he can meet the family!" If we're talking about silly concepts, I'd like to nominate this one. Truth is truth unless it's contradicted by one of my darling children. Now THAT'S silly. Peace JerryB

That's a very wise and loving way to present the truth Johnny. Peace JerryB

sigh... I did not say I would kick them out. I simply said I would not accept that behavior. We have two children ages 15 and 18. There is a lot of behavior that is not accepted in hour house and some of it has been habitual. No one has ever been kicked out of the house. Peace JerryB

There are a LOT of things I would not "accept" from one of my children and announcing that he or she is in love with someone of the same gender is just one of them. Peace JerryB

I think we've already addressed this. Please see my response to your previous post. Once again, you are responding to things I have not said. Not only that, you're ignoring what I have said. Admittedly I've said a lot, so maybe it's getting hard to keep track. What I have been saying is, many people don't conciously choose to be gay. They get coerced or hustled into it, either by spiritual pressure, seduction, drugs, alcohol, or all of the above. They fold under the pressure, either because of ignorance of what's going on or some other reason. That's not been my experience. The first girl I knew who did that was in high school. That was way back in 1978. She had a string of heartbreaks (one of which I'M sorry to say, was with me) and declared she was through with men and started pursuing girls. Based on what I'm seeing and hearing as a parent, today's adolescents are more likely to be involved in romantic relationships than ever, and at earlier ages. Middle school kids have intense infatuations, rommances, (some sexual), and breakups. Teenagers commit suicide because of bitter breakups. Switching sides would be a lot less drastic reaction than kissing a revolver. Duly noted. But, imho, there's an extra element of EWWWWWWW when you see two men kissing as opposed to seeing a man and woman kissing--at the same level of passion mind you. I think a mildly passionate liplock between a man and a woman at a cafe table would be much less irksome than the exact same kiss exchanged between two men. Of course that's unprovable, but I would bet you dollars to doughnuts if you got 500 people together and somehow scientifically measured their emotional discomfort, the male kiss would cause much higher levels of discomfort than the hetero smooch. None taken Sharon.Peace JerryB

Thanks LG. I'll take a look. Garth. Absurd? Not at all. As I said earlier, spirits work partly by exacerbating pysical problems and circumstances. If you're at peace sitting at home watching the Hawks and the Heat, they've got nothing to work with. But if your wife walks in and starts yelling and screaming at you, you get anxious. Spirits can then intensify that anxiety and raise it to an ubearable level. The way many antidepressents work is simply by controlling the level of certain enzymes in the brain to prevent you from getting anxious in the first place. (SSRI's like Prozac and Lexapro work this way. I have a friend who was put on an SSRI for manic depression. He said that when he was on it, you could have walked up to him and said, "Hey man, your house is on fire!" and he would have casually turned, looked at the burning house and said. "Huh. Guess I'll have to move." It puts the person very near an emotional flatline instead of the roller coaster they are accustomed to. If that is done with mediacation, the spirit has nothing to work with because the person doesn't get anxious in the first place. The most common error people make regarding demons is giving them too much power. They can't just jump in someone and take over. They have to have a lot of help. Like fear, anxiety, anger, lust, frustration, loss, grief, etc.(I've experienced this by the way--not the screaming wife, the intensification of anxiety or stress.) Once when my wife-to-be and I were living in different cities, I just got to where I missed her so badly I could hardly stand it. I began to get so worked up, I didn't know what I was going to do. As my emotional state starting to spiral out of control, I became dimly aware that something unnatural was going on and I began to fear that I might literally lose my mind. So I simply said, "God I can't handle this." And immediately, the anxiety and stress disappeared like someone had blown it off of me. Is this proof that there was a spiritual attack going on? No. Is there proof that it wasn't? No. I offer it as an example of what I'm talking about. Spirits are like emotional parasites. They have to have something to feed off of. When we control the hormones that channel emotional engergy through the brain, they are cut off and neutralized. Is that something that can be clinically proven? No, but it's something that can be known by experience. You can't clinically prove that love or faith exist, but they change people's lives just the same. Peace JerryB

Sounds like a nice family Socks. We tell our 15year old son we love him, but, being a 15 year old boy, he usually just gets embarrassed and draws away when we do. But he will give us spontaneous hugs to show his affection. He has is extremely affectionate and will be a very loving man when he grows up. I expect the lucky woman with whom he ends up will be showered with genuine and undying affection. Don't tell him I said that. He'd only blush. :-) Peace JerryB

Good gravy! Please people. Take a page from the Garth-Galen book and actually READ what someone posts. Don't make invalid assumptions. I never said ANYTHING about loving one child less than the other. What I said was, if you LOVE a child, you help him or her to overcome a problem by believing God for help rather than rationalzing it and making them feel comfortable in it. I love my children equally. Never indicated anything different. Now let's get back to this rollicking discussion, shall we? Peace JerryB

I'm not "hung up" on homosexuality. I just saw a thread that was tilted to one side of an argument and decided to present the other side. I'm just very thorough. If we were talking about PFAL, you'd assume I'm "hung up" on discrediting the class. But maybe I do get a little too animated in here. Maybe I like debate too much. It runs in the family. I don't know, I'm not in charge of those. It affects my life because I have two children. And I have to raise them in a culture that consistently pushes the idea that homosexuality is good, normal, and decent. Therefore, I have the responsibility of presenting what I believe is the truth. If I just accept the mainstream mantra and tell my kids that it's okay to be "gay", then I may have to answer for that when I get to heaven. You know, the whole, watchman at the gate thing. If I tell them the truth and they go the other way, they have to deal with the consequences. If I know the truth and am too lazy or intimidated by the vox populi to declare it, then their blood is on my head. I don't think I said it was "a greater sin" than (breaking)ten commandments. But, I did point out that, even in a New Testament epistle that espouses righteousness by faith, homosexuality is called "vile", "against nature" and "unseemly". Why is that? I don't know. Ask God or the Apostle Paul. I'll bet only one of them will answer you. :-) See above This is an illogical statement and will be ignored. No seriously. God expects us to be aware of the "wiles of the devil". Jesus told his aposltes to be "wise as serpents" but harmless as doves. Just because God is powerful doesn't mean Christians are supposed to be stupid and ignore evil. Using God's protective power as an excuse for being blind and/or lazy certainly won't get me any rewards in heaven. You presume too much dear lady. Not only do I not live under the letter of the law (I don't sacrifices lambs, doves, or goats), I'm not even a fundamentalist. (Someone who believes in the infallibility of the Bible). I just do my best to obey God's will for my life. My beliefs are based as much on what I've experienced and on what God has taught me as they are on what's written. I certainly hope so. But being "peaceul" and being right are not always the same thing. Truth is not always a happy thing. Jesus said something about bringing a sword and dividing households, didn't he? Sounds dreadfully un-peaceful to me. Think nothin' of it. :-) There goes that "birds of a feather thing kicking in. Now you're discriminating against me! How dare you!! Well, like I said above, I don't have one. But you and your smart, talented, daughter would certainly be welcome at the one my wife goes to. They accept everybody. But they'll sill tell you that homosexuality is not good for you and is something you should try to get delivered from. Because they love people and don't think it's a loving, Christian thing to see someone in need of help and be too much of a whimp to tell them so. Peace JerryB

Yes I have Garth. We've discussed this at length before here in the cafe. Just because the current popular belief denounces the existence of demons doesn't automatically make it so. I don't worship at the altar of science or psychiatry. Some mental conditions are caused by genetics, some are caused by spirits, and, as I noted above, some are caused by both. Trying to classify EVERY case of mental illness as either a completely spiritual problem or a completely physical problem is juvenile at best, dangerously stupid at worst. Some people who are being treated by drugs and therapy can also be helped by spiritual means. Some people simply don't have the faith to overcome the spiritual attack and have to resort to drugs and therapy. This goes back to a previous comment someone made about deliverance. Some gays get delivered some don't. Likewise some alchoholics get delivered and some don't. Some people get healed of cancer, some die. Does the fact that some people who pray for healing and still die mean that those who claim to have been healed are frauds? No. Life isn't that simple. Some people can receive their deliverance directly from God, others can't. Oh, come on Garth! You, as a master of logic, ought to realize what an abusrd statement that is. How are you going to "clinically" prove something that exists in a realm beyond the natural. We can't clinically prove that God exists, yet most of us KNOW that He does. According to all four gospels, Jesus cast out demons. Was he a scammer, a fraud, a charlatan? Can you say....deceived? By the way, not all psychiatrists subscribe to the notion that all psychosis is natural. I have two books by a prominent psychiatrist who belives that some people are indeed possessed. Click here for more information Of course, in your staunch naturalistic fervor, you'll denounce him as a Christian fraud/idiot/opportunist/whatever. Nonetheless, as a practicing psychiatrist, who was raised as an agnostic and approaches life with a scientific, analytical mindset, his conclusions shouldn't be arbitrarilly disnmissed. Peace JerryB

That I very much doubt. But if you want a real-world example go ask Anne Heich. You remember her, don't you? Ellen Degeneres' girlfriend when Ellen came out of the closet. They appeared together on Oprah and Oprah asked each of them about being 'born gay'. Ellen upheld the dogma and said she'd always been lesbian. Anne said she'd never been into women before, but just fell in love with Ellen. A short while later, Anne literally ran screaming from Ellen's house and begged a man to let her in. Today she's married--to a man--and says that, during the whole time she was with Ellen she was out of her mind. Hmmmmm sounds a little bit like maybe...she was...hustled. Maybe she was mentally or spiritually unsound. She was, in her own words, crazy. At any rate, she was living with an in intimate relationship with, another woman. Not only was she not born gay, she didn't even stay gay. I also have a relative who dated women exclusively for about six months. Was she born gay. No. She was confused, hurt, and searching. Is that proof that people aren't born gay? NO. Now, you prove that people ARE born gay. You can't do it. So we can stand here and shoot verbal spitballs at each other, or we can just agree to disagree. Peace JerryB

Wouldn’t it be better to tell them the truth? Those figures are from Paul Cameron, a rabid anti-homosexual, and they’re completely bogus. You know how he came up with them? By comparing obituaries in homosexual newspapers with those in conventional newspapers.Those gay papers, many of which are distributed for free at bars and other places gays and lesbians gather, target urban homosexuals who are active in the homosexual community. They’re mostly younger people, because older people of any persuasion tend to settle down. The obituaries are submitted by the readers, and are mostly about people whose deaths they consider newsworthy, either because they are well known in the gay community or because their death is untimely. So obituaries in gay papers over-represent younger gays and under-represent older ones. They over-represent urban homosexuals and under-represent suburban and rural ones. They over-represent more active (not necessarily in a sexual sense) homosexuals, who live riskier lives, and under-represent quiet, passive ones, who live less risky lives. And they represent only homosexuals who are publicly “out” and don’t even represent at all those who are not. Obituaries in conventional papers include homosexuals without identifying them as such. They are not representative of the heterosexual population. So neither source provides useful data for the stated purpose, and the numbers are not even close to being accurate. But they were never intended to be. They were intended to promote an anti-homosexual agenda through deception. Very interesting LG. I was not aware of that. Can you document this? JerryB

I suppose we should just ignore every other verse in the Bible that clearly says that homosexuality is unacceptable to God. Like, say for instance, Leviticus 18:22 Oh, wait. That's the OLD testament. The law was done away with. Wait, there's more. Try Romans 1:25-27 for instance. so if you're going to cite Sodom and Gommorrah and try to imply that the Bible doesn't say that God condemns homosexuality, you need to keep reading. Even in Romans, the epistle that sets forth th standard of righteousness by faith, homosexual conduct is clearly denounced as unseemly (disgraceful or shameful), and unnatural. By the way, if a certain amount of the population is "born gay", it is a natural situation. Romans says it's "against nature", which is one of the reasons Bible believers denounce the argument that people are born that way. I don't have a Church and don't currently go to Church. This kind of thing is best handled privately in a family setting. I would never try to minister to someone for homosexuality in a public setting unless they asked me too. And I'm not a minister, so I would probably just refer them to someone more qualified. It's not just "some Christians" who are uncomfortable with homosexuality. Most people are, if you put it in their faces. People who accept the idea that some men are gay will still grimace or squirm if they see two men kissing. That's because it's unnatural and the sight of such behaviour makes people uncomfortable on a gut level. Peace JerryB

Please go back and re-read my post. What I said is" People aren't born gay. They either choose it or are coerced and pulled into it; often by a combination of lust, frustration, alchohol and drugs--and spirits. It's a mean hustle for sure, but it's still a hustle." I think mostly it's the latter. Spirits pepper people's minds with thoughts. The average person is completely unaware of the existence of demonic spirits so they think these "thoughts" are their own. If this goes on long enough, the persson is eventually worn down and they surrender to it and the spirit is "in". Or the hustle may come through the aggressive action of another person. I know of one instance where a young believer was at a bar and got drunk. A lesbian got her drunker and did her best to seduce her, both by kissing her and blowing marijuana smoke into her mouth trying to get her high so she could take her home. Some other believers tried to intercede and the lesbian threatened them phsyically. She ended up taking the girl home with her. That's what I call a hustle. Seduction actually. The girl involved didn't make a calm, deliberate choice to go home with a lesbian. She was seduced. I'm not saying that all lesbians are sexually aggressive, hard-drinking, pot-smoking predators. It's just an example There are lots of ways spirits get control of people's lives, but the fact that most people are ignorant of their very existence, let alone their methods only makes their jobs easier. And the fact that so many Christians teach that there's nothing wrong with being homosexual certainly makes their job much easier. Good question. There are certainly other weaknesses people fall into. Depression, suicide, alcoholism. Any of them can be produced in part by genetic predispostion, or spiritual pressure. Often the spiritual pressure merely augments natural pressure from circumstances. Spirits can take an bad situation and make it unbearable. If the person under attack recognizes what's going on and asks God for help, the spirits are defeated and the situation becomes manageable. If he doesn't recongize what's going on, he can be driven to suicide, a violent rage, a drunken binge, or maybe a homosexual episode. It depends on the circumstances, the person's weaknesses. Like I said, it's a hustle. The "choice" if there is any, in such a circumstance, is merely a failure to choose to seek God for help and deliverance. Peace JerryB

I KNOW this is going to offend you and I apologize...but I will NEVER "counsel" my children in this minimalist manner. My children are thinking, feeling, logical, questioning beings that deserve to be heard, understood, validated, and allowed their own path for finding the 'truth'. Prayer is powerful...reading is good...ministering is good...but effective communication and interactive listening is essential to proper formation of adolescents. If I sit around wondering 'if' they will make it...then I haven't done my job as a parent very well, have I? I ENCOURAGE my children to question EVERYTHING. What is there to be afraid of? Nadda God is strong enough, loving enough, and aware enough to still be there throughout the path my children take. If I am motivated by the fear that they will 'trespass against god' .... what statement does that make about how REAL god is (or how real I am) My god is real enough to be proof through whatever. ( I'm sorry but I don't see the connection. You assume that I'm afraid that my children might question things. Where did that come from? I encourage them to think critically and to analyze, and question what they're taught. But I also know that, as adolescents, there are things that I understand that they don't. And, as a parent, it's my job to protect them from certain things until they're mature enough to deal with them. But that's not what I was talking about, so I don't see the connection between my post and your reply. Perhaps I'm missing something. What I was referring to is helping my child to overcome what I perceived to be a spiritual problem. I did it mainly by praying for them and encouraging them to just read the Bible. I had faith that prayer and exposure to the truths in the Bible would displace the negative spiritual influences and correct the wrong thinking. And guess what? It worked. The fear is gone and now my youngster has a little better understanding of how God works. I think that's what Christian parenting is supposed to accomplish. We protect our children and teach them at the same time. By the way; speaking of love and parenting. I should also add that if my child were considering, or being tempted with homosexuality, I would tell them that the average life expectancy of a lesbian woman is about 45 years of age and the average life expectancy of a homosexual man (who doesn't die of AIDS) is 41. You would certainly tell your teenage child about the dangers of drunk driving and drug abuse. A "lifestyle" that will probably cut their life expectancy in half should be treated the same way--as an unhealthy choice. Peace JerryB

Outofdafog No one's telling you not to love your daughter. Of course you should love her. We all love our children and none of them are perfect. But loving your child should not blind you to a problem or weakness your pecious little one may have. Loving them means being honest with them and encouraging them to seek help from God when they feel overwhelmed by something. Loving them also means teaching them that some things are sinful and dangerous and should be avoided. You all jump to accuse the fundamentalists of being hard-hearted and call them Pharisees. Jesus walked perfectly in love did he not? Didn't he confront some people and tell them to change their ways? Everyone wants to quote the famous "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus spared the woman from execution, which was the legal punishment for adultery. Did he say, "I love you, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Those people are just being mean"? No. What were his last words to that woman? Anybody remember that? Jesus forgave the woman. But he also recognized that she was living in sin and told her to stop. Why? Gee I guess maybe it was because he LOVED her. There is a balance to this story that is ravaged in debates like this one. Just because someone in YOUR family is a homosexual and you LOVE them, doesn't mean that it's not a sin to be homosexual. I love my children too. One of them has had problems with irrational fear. I didn't just ingore it and reationalize because I love them. I prayed for the child and had them read the Word, and ministered to them. Love doesn't turn a blind eye to a spiritual problem, It confronts and defeats it so that the person can be helped and delivered. Peace JerryB

Well said Satori001

Gee CM, talk about hypocrisy. You started a discussion about God's love and then defined it in *your* terms. Lindy wisely stated that your terms are not universally understood. Father means different things to different people and cultures. Def59 simply stated that the Bible says God is love and God is our Father and attempted to present the Bible's terms of what that includes. So you, in all of your Christian love, tell him to go away! Come on! For all of you who think the "right wing fundamentalists" are judgmental hypocrites, this is a good lesson. There are close-minded judgmental hypocrites on both sides of the aisle. Liberal and conservative, left wing, right wing; When you challenge their creed, they do the same thing. Peace JerryB

My two cents' worth. God does not make people homosexual. Human weakness and Satanic predation do that. Homosexuals can and do get delivered by the way. As much as the gay rights movement would like to bury this truth it has been documented. People aren't born gay. They either choose it or are coerced and pulled into it; often by a combination of lust, frustration, alchohol and drugs--and spirits. It's a mean hustle for sure, but it's still a hustle. Alchohol and drug abuse are much higher in the gay community than in straight society. Partly, imho, because that's how many of them got pulled into it and partly because it dulls the conscience. The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists. They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted. By the way, equating gay rights with civil rights offends a great many African Americans, myself included. It's not the same thing. As I've already said the notion that people are born gay, is not universally accepted and has not been proven. Personally I think it's malarkety. Besides not being a natural state, homosexuality is not the same as race or ethnicity because it can easily be hidden. Gay people can and mostly do, hide that aspect of their lives in order to fit in and excel. People are definitely born black, Asian, Hispanic etc. And most blacks cannot hide that ancestry. Some can "pass", most cannot. I have to deal almost everyday on some level with the issue of whether the predominately white society around me judges me based on my skin color. When I walk down the street, I KNOW there are people with whom I share that street who automatically think less of me because I'm a black male. There is no "closet" I can go into or come out of at will. A black homosexual can be delivered from homosexuality, but he'll still be black. Peace JerryB