Jbarrax

There once was a fellow named Jerry Whose lovely wife Deb was quite wary Of word studies in Greek with a room full of geeks But EX10 said 'just come and be merry'. So he promised longsuffering Deborah That the shindig would be far from a bor-e With munchies and jokes with the kind of great folks, We'd enjoyed for many years before-e Deb and I will be bringing chips, dip, salsa, and a bucket of beef brisket from Cackle & Oink bbq in Sherman. (Tasty stuff) JerryB

Well I'm a beer and chips man myself, but I've recently discovered a quaint little bbq joint called Cackle and Oink bbq here in Sherman. Unless the pictures on the walls are fake, they've won some regional bbq competitions (in Louisiana, Texas etc). We sampled the family pack and had he beef brisket, green beans, and coleslaw. Slaw is slaw, but the green beans and brisket were delish! If there's not too much bbq already, I'd liike to bring some. If that's covered, I'll just get an enormous assortment of chips, pretzels, salsa's, dips, and whatnot, and some MGD, Coke, Ginger Ale and other popular beverages. I'm still trying to talk Deb into it, so I may have to come solo. :-(

That's pretty funny Paw.

If the invitations are still open, I'd like to attend, with my better half, Deborah. What can we bring? beer, chips, salsa, dessert?

The company I work for now is owned by a family of Jehovah's Witnesses. One a recent lunch with one of the owners, we got to talking about our religious backgrounds and beliefs and I too was stunned by how similar the doctrines of the JW and TWI are. 1) Jesus Christ is Not God 2) Don't celebrate Holidays 3) No steeples on the buildings 4) Door to door witnessing 5) Emphasis on study and knowledge of Scripture 6) Moderate alchohol consumption is okay, but drunkenness is not. I think there were others, but I forget now. The conversation formed a common Unitarian bond between us that makes for a nice working relationship. One thing that impressed me was his assertion that many of the beliefs the JW's hold now have evolved over the years because of biblical study and research. They change their doctrines when they come to a different understanding of the Bible. If that's genuine, I have to respect it. Most denominations are more committed to their traditions than they are to truth. I have also been impressed by their character and general morality. Unlike Vic's disciples, they don't promote sexually lax standards. In other words, they are genuinely decent people and have been very good to work with. I'm not planning on attending any Kingdom Hall meetings anytime soon, but would like to know more about them. JerryB

I got a hunnert. :D :D

I saw the class action suit referenced in an article online right after I posted my rant. Apparently my experience was not unique. Here's an excerpt from the article at www.consumerwatchdog.org. Here's the full text I also got stuck for $175 when I switched to Sprint, even though I was only a month away from the end of my contract. If I can find out how to join the class, I'll add my name to the list of litigants.

Just wanted to post a liitle note about why I love corporate mergers. I signed up for cellular service with ATT&T Wireless in October of 2004. ATT&T wireless merged with Cingular Wireless shortly thereafter and the quality of service immediately deteriorated. Cingular's "customer service" is a bunch of people in Singapore or somewhere who barely know what they're doing. After months of lousy service I switched to Sprint. When I closed the account with ATT&T/Cingular, I paid my final bill and wrote Cingular a check for about $290.00. I received a statement shortly thereafter indicating that I'd overpaid and that they owed me $40.55. I called about it in January and was told that they would send me a check. I got a statement in February indicating that a refund check would be issued. I'm a patient and busy guy, so I waited... and waited.. and waited... I called about it today, July 29th and was put on hold for an HOUR. When I finally got someone to speak with me, I was told that Cingular doesn't owe me any money because my accoutn was not with Cingular but with ATT&T!! Funny, that didnt' seem to be a problem when the money was going from me to them. They accepted my final payment with no reservation. But when it has to go the other way, sudenly, they have nothing to do with ATT&T and they don't know me from Adam. I bluntly told the Cingular representative that her company is full of horse manure and that I would recommend that anyone interested in cellular service look elsewhere.

sigh. Threads like this are part of the reason I don't hang out at the cafe much anymore. It seems like we keep having the same arguments over and over. On the other hand, it was this very topic was what brought me to the internet many years ago and lead to my connecting with this wonderful ex-twi community. The result has been more spiritual growth than I ever received in TWI. So I guess I should be happy that it's still being discussed and are bringing new people into the ex-TWI community. But it's kind of sad that, after all these years, we still can't have a civil conversation about such an important topic. I am aware that many, many women here have posted about their experiences with VP. I would not dare call any one of them a liar or a charlatan. But the original question asked if there is proof of VP's adulterous activities, similar to that which drove LCM from office. Both LCM and his mnetor allegedly had multiple affairs with the women of the Way over several years. I have heard second and third hand stories from reliable sources aobut both. But the reason Craig left the presidency was not because a lot of people posted anonymously on in internet forum. It was because a woman publicly accused him and forced him to admit publicly, in court documents, that he had committed adultery. That is a level of proof that no Way-brained follower can dispute, no matter how much they want to remain blind. We simply do not have that level of proof of DocVic's adulterous proclivities. Does that mean he's innocent? No. Iit just means we can't prove his guilt to the satisfaction of the Weirwillites. To those who suffered abuse at his hands, this must be a maddening situation. I feel genuinely sorry for those ladies and understand fully why they choose to remiain anonymous or choose not to even discuss what happened to them. It would be immensely satisfying to me to see such proof brought forward in a public venue just so that this topic could be laid to rest with VP and so his victims could stop defending themselves against those who wish to remain ingnorant to the dark side of our "Father in the Word." Peace to all

Hi Tom! I hear there's a fellowship in Dallas. I'll try to get the particulars and see if we can make the next meeting. Looking forward to meeting you all. :) :) :) :) :) Peace JerryB

Thanks Mark. I don't intend to start a fellowship. I'm just looking for one to participate in. You are right in saying that my "fellowship" is my family. They are my primary interest these days. They've been attending a church in Lexington and will be looking for a group here. I just figured that since we're starting over, it would be nice to find some folks with whom we can have more in common.

Hi Mark! :) I've accepted a position with a company that started in Sherman and is now located in Denison. We bought a house in Sherman because their high school has a curriculum more suited to my son's interests. We like the people here. They seem quite friendly and the cost of living is not as high as it is in Lexington, KY. Dallas isn't too far of a drive from Sherman. It's only about 75 miles away.

Hello all. My family and I have just moved to Sherman, TX. It's a small city about 70 miles north of Dallas. We're interested in looking for an ex-TWI fellowship. If anyone can point us in the right direction or supply a contact name of phone number, it wuld be greatly appreciated. Peace JerryB

The (suppoed) dual role of error spirits was common in VP's definitions. It seems most spirits, according to his teaching had both religious and secular roles. Error spirits caused religious people to propound error and also caused non-religious people to be accident prone. Likewise the spirit of slumber was supposed to keep people from seeing the truth when they read the Bible, and to cause people to have narcolepsy or something like that. Although I have had some direct and indirect experiences with devils and believe they exist, I don't know how much of what VP taught about them is reliable. There are other sources that may be more valuable. Derek Prince has a complete tape series called Deliverance and Demonology (I think that's the name of it) that is pretty good. He has a more solid Biblical basis for the teachings and actually uses the teaching to do something that was sorely lacking in TWI--Deliverying demonized people. I think Dale Sides does this kind of ministering as well. Speakig of which; one of the things that bugged me was the leadership's tendency to brand someone as "possessed" as a means of warning other people not to talk to them, but without showing the slightest inkling of a willingness to help the person. A Christian ministry that claims to have as much power and knowledge as TWI did should be out there healing people and saving lives. I've heard that a lot of that happened in the early days, but I didn't see much of it going on in the 80's. I believe the reason for this is that the knowledge we had was mostly borrowed form other men with genuine ministries and used to make VP look like some kind of spiritual superman. And that, by and large, we didn't have the love necessary to put what power we had into action. The love of God is what delivers people. Love energizes God's power. You know the whole I Corinthians 13 mantra. Anyway, those are my miscellaneous ramblings on the subject. Greater is He who is in You than he who is in the world. Peace JerryB

Dude, what's the friggin' POINT? Don't you have even a rudimentary understanding of the dynamics of a DISCUSSION FORUM? The benefit of being here comes from Listening to OTHER PEOPLE! Lord help us....

Well said Todd. That's exactly why PFAL seems to be such a great Bible class, but is, in fact, full of error. It is its own system. When you examine it by itself, it looks wonderful. But when you compare it with the Bible in in amore comprehensive examination, it becomes obvious that the class is not what it claims to be. The problem with grads continuing to run the class for each other and for new people is, that comparison doesn't get done and the discrepancies between the PFAL system and the Bible never become apparent. Peace JerryB

Hmmmmm. That requires some serious consideration Mo. It brings to mind a disturbing verse from II Peter chapter two. verse 2 actually. I believe II Peter chapter two is not referring to "seed boys" as LDM taught, but to the judgment of corrupt ministers. One of the reasons for this judgment is given at the outset, in verse two. The caused the way of truth to be evil spoken of. Maureen says the Devil's goal is to make the genuine appear to be a counterfeit. I think she is referring to genuine Christian virtues like humility (Way clergymen are anything but), sobriety (Drambui anyone?) and chastity (nuff said). We've noted many times how mainstream churches and ministers are rididuled by TWI folk. VP laid the foundation for that in the foundational class. In at least one instance I've seen, he went out of his way, ignoring context to do so. Perhaps the "way of truth" that The Way caused to be evil spoken of--at least among us Weirwillites-- was the truth that it is more important to have an honest and humble relationship with the Lord than it is to know about figures of speech and Orientalisms. I'm not saying that's the whole answer, but I think Maureen's comment bears consideration. Thanks Mo JerryB

Hi EVAN!! So nice to see you here.

And again I say you're missing the point. You keep referring to 1+1=2. That's a mathematical fact, not a truth. One ot the things VP taught you is that there is a difference between facts and truth. That's one of the things I think he got right, but his and our application of it was very screwy. Facts are hard, empirical pieces of information related to the physical realm. Truth is accurate information relating to the spiritual realm. Truth doesn't always fit the same patterns of logic that facts do. One can know the facts but not be able lto discern the truth behind them. I'll give you an example. The Bible says that Jesus Christ prophesied that the High Priest would witness Jesus' return in glory. It is a historical fact that this did not happen. Are we to conclude that Jesus was a false prophet, a charlatain, a fraud? Based solely on this verse (and some others in the same vein) one might be lead to conlude, based on logic, that Jesus was a false prophet. Is this the TRUTH? Of course not. But I could make a case for it from the Scripture if I really wanted to. Likewise there are Scriptures that clearly indicate that eternal life is by grace alone, not by works. There are other Scriptures, sometimes in the very same epistles, that indicate that eternal life is by works and faithfulness. Equally capable devout Christians can't agree on which is which. If we take a 1+1=2 approach to the Bible, solving these questions is hopeless because we are approaching the spiritual realm with a carnal mindset. Quite frankly, I don't believe God wants us to be able to figure out what the truth is by reading and thinking. Where's the love, the compassion, the mercy, in that? You say truth is truth no matter who says it. Technically I agree. But the issue is, if a man's life is not in harmony with Jesus Christ who is truth, does he have any chance of knowing what the truth is, and can he be trusted to lead others to it. I don't think so. He can get them started in the most rudimentary levels, which PFAL did, but eventually we have to leave what we think we know behind and begin to learn with our hearts, not with our heads. That's where PFAL becomes a truly empty, broken cistern. DITTO. :-) peace JerryB

Whew. You spend a few days away from one of these PFAL threads and you have to read four pages to catch up. There have been several great posts here. We were all indoctrinated in WD's mantra about truth being truth no matter who says it. That is, imo, a very carnal and shallow, almost cynical approach to Christian ministry. That means, I can steal from you, rape your children, and drive people to madness, but there's nothing wrong with me standing in a pulpit and claiming to be a Man of God. Sorry, the Bible itself disputes that. By the way, WD posted that Jesus said the Pharisees may have missed a few things. That has to be the understatement of the century. He didn't say they had missed a few things. He called them children of the Devil! Furthermore, he accused them of making their converts even more wicked than they were. Look it up. So the "truth is truth" mindset is clearly at odds with the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who wants to maintain that thinking and throw out what Jesus taught to keep what VP taught is a good exapmple of what's really wrong with PFAL. Which Tom's post illustrated beautifully. Thom's post about the difference between the Word of Truth and the Rightly Divided Word is a fabulous (inspired?) statement on why the class is dangerous. And the most powerful aspect of the post is that he used something VP taught to contradict the mindset of VP's supporters. Linda, I generally find you to be levelheaded, pragmatic and wise. But I must agree that the example of your high school teachers being compared with a minister is an apples to oranges mismatch. Despite the fact that your history teacher was a letch, you got a good enough grounding in history to be able to continue to study and appreciate it. Most of us are so screwed up after taking PFAL that it literally takes us YEARS to figure out what the Bible is for and how to appreciate it. History is a bunch of information, facts. The Bible is not a book of facts. And this is the crucial difference between Bible teachers and every other kind of teacher. This is the biggest, most heinous, error in PFAL. Weirwille's dogged comparisons of the Bible to math and science lead us to think of the Bible, and GOD as elements in a test tube that we could approadh with an empirical, "scientific" and yes, carnal mindset. "1=1+2" has no friggin brearing on " God is love". The Bible is NOT mathematically exact and scientifically precise and it's not SUPPOSED to be. It's full of contradictions, parallel truths, paradoxes and mysteries. Those who approach the Bible as a field manual for leading a healthy, wealthy, happy life are completely missing the point. And that's what PFAL does to is adherents. It tempts us to completely miss the point of being a Christian. It's not about who's right and how much truth we have, it's about making sacrifices to follow the will of God and obey our Lord Jesus Christ, and about living with a humility and self sacrificial love that enables us to "esteem others better than ourselves." We can't get to the real heart of what's wrong with the class until we stop thinking of the Bible as a set of quantifiable facts akin to math and history. Belle stated that I started the PFAL Review as a proponent of the class. For the record, that's not exactly the case. I started my online discussions with people as a Weirwillite and staunch supporter of PFAL, and in trying to quote the class to prove others wrong, I started finding inconsistencies in the class. Hebrews chapter 12 vs. VP's "faith of Jesus Christ" teaching was what started the ball rolling. When I found that error, some WC who were impressed with my desire to study and learn the Bible to the best of my ability, had just given me a copy of the class on VHS, so I decided to take a closer look. I was shocked and apalled at the amount of clear documentable error in it. So that's when I started the PFAL Review thread. I started by seeing that VP's facts didn't line up with the Scripture. Eventually, I figured out that the Scripture's not about facts after all. Peace JerryB

Tom Strange; I couldn't possibly have turned it off. I haven't visited the group's homepage since I subscribed. All I do is receive, and read the messages that come to--or used to come to--my inbox. Suddenly they stopped. Maybe it's some other kind of hitch in the system, but I thought the timing was interesting. Thomas Heller: Good questions all. JerryB

I first found Waydale after having spent some time at CES's forum fellowshipping and debating with Garth, Rafael, Dan, et al. But what brought me to the internet to find ex-TWI information was a conversation with my old twig leader, a Corps girl named Lynda. She told me that VP had had a habit of having sex with Corps girls in his motorcoach and that prominent women in the ministry were involved in recruiting girls for him. In all the years I'd lived through the POP stuff, I'd heard a lot about the sins and alleged sins of Craig, Howard et al, but nothing had ever been said about our Father In the Word being anything but a Man of God. I was shocked of course. So I figured if it were true, there had to be proof and I went online to investigate. At the time, I was a rather obnoxious PFAL groupie and started accusing almost everyone of libel, slander, being a spiritual hitchhiker, etc. You know the drill. But dialog with folks like Garth and Rafael, eventually got the scales to drop off my eyes and I began to reconsider some things. I tend not to get wrapped up in the whole VP was a letch mindset, cause I wasn't there and when it comes right down to it, I don't know. I'm not sure I want to. But I think I have learned an awful lot about God and truth via the online ex-WAY community, and to say I'm grateful that Waydale and the GSC are here would be a gross understatement. Peace JerryB

Galen. I did not insult anyone. I simply stated that there are errors in the class and that ignoring them is not wise. As is often the case with PFAL fans, any criticism of the accuracy of the class is perceived as a threat or an insult. You may repost what I said if you like, but I don't think you'll find that I insulted anybody. Anyway, it's not a big deal. I didn't expect those posts to be accepted, which is why I put off submitting them for a year. But if figured I'd give the listers a chance to hear something different. And I may still be on the list, but there is a standard email sent by you which is titled "weekly message". Oddly enough, I haven't seen one since I posted my last comment on March 1st. So you'll understand why I assumed I'd been dropped from the list. My mistake. :-) Peace JerryB Allan. Actually, if you asked 10 people with whom I live and work if I'm a "nice person", I'll bet you a thousand dollars that at least 8 of them would say "yes". But it's hard to be "nice" when you are reminded that you committed your life to something based on a mish-mash of lies and half-truths. Being deceived about something so vitally important tends to *%^#* people off. Peace JerryB

Hi Galen. Apparently you like it so much that you can't stand the idea that anyone else sees errors in it. I posted a message on your ex-TWI mailing list*, which is supposed to be an opportunity to share what we're studying. When I revealed that what I was studying didn't fit with the PFAL mindset, I was suddenly no longer on the list! Imagine my surprise. Tell me Galen, do you support TWI's Mark & Avoid policy? Do you think it was based on Craig Martindale's spiritual wisdom or on the fear of dissent? I don't expect you to support what TWI did to many of us here, but that's what you did to me. Funny how liking PFAL makes people afraid to hear alternative viewpoints. If PFAL is supposed to give you the keys to the Word's understanding and make you more than a conqueror, why are its most devoted students afraid to engage in an honest discussion of the class's merits? Peace JerryB *Galen hosts an email group called TWI-1@yahoogroups.com. The weekly message--which for some mysterious reason, I no longer receive--says that he remembers a time in the Way when we all studied the Word and he wants to hear about what we're studying.

You're quite welcome. and thank you for the kind words. The wonderful thing about the PFAL Review was that it became a group effort, a sort of online bible study. Many people contributed including Raf, Catcup, The Evan, Steve Lortz, et al. It was for me a big turning point and it's gratifying to know that it was a benefit to others like me trying to sort things out. Freelady. I know you're going to have a hard time believing this, but, when I first landed in ex-TWi world, my beliefs and attitude were exactly like yours. I believed deeply in the accuracy of the PFAL class and just thought the Way's problems were all practical; not doctrinal. I prided myself on my knowledge of PFAL and often confronted people who seemed to have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater". But as I eventually discovered, the more closely you look at it, the more shaky it becomes. PFAL is designed, imo, for people who want to believe in the Bible and want life to be simple. Im sorry but it's just not like that. The "class" offers a lot of truth and a few significant benefits. Yes, some good things occurred in my life after I took the class. But if you stop there, your journey with God and Christ will never mature. Accepting PFAL as the truth of God's Word is kind of like being satisfied with a sixth grade education. You learn some basic things, but you never really learn to think like an adult. YOu get a smattering of education, but not a complete education. The class gives you the senst that you know the bible, but all you really know is what VP assumed about the Bible. The real Bible remains a mystery to most PFAL grads. And then, when someone shows it to them, they get indignant or just can't handle it. (Cue Jack Nicholson) Anyway, Freelady I wholeheartedly encourage you to crank up your VCR and watch the class. But pause the tape, get out your concordance, slow down, and THINK about what's being taught. Check and see if that's what the Bible really says. Is God really incapable of communicating directly with the mind of a "natural man"? Does the word pros really mean "together with yet distinctly independent of", or is it just a common preposition used hundreds of times in the New Tesatment? Does II Peter I:20 really mean we're not supposed to think when we read the Bible? Or is the context referring instead to where the Bible came from? Did David really want to chop of Nathan's head? Did David really have the right to any woman in the kingdom? If so, why did Nathan reprove him about taking another man's wife? Does allos really mean another when there are more than two involved? If the Bible explains itself then why are there "Orientalisms"? I could go on, and on, and on, but you get the picture. I'll give you a little hint. All of the questions above indicate clear documentable examples of where the PFAL class contradicts the Bible. And that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. :-) There's lots more. So by all means dust off the tapes and take another look at PFAL. But this time, do it with your mind engaged instead of putting your brain in neutral. Peace JerryB