TheEvan

Tzaia, my wife & I have participated in the Walk to Emmaus and have sent other to be involved. A very great ministry. It's made a big impact in our town... Mark, I was there last time (having been there 1.5 yrs earlier) ministering & teaching among the incredible Masai tribe in one of their villages. I hope the few pictures are still up...

When I speak authoritatively, it's because I was there. My opinion is based on at least as much first hand experience as oldies, for instance. And more, apparently, when it comes to dealing with people broken to bits by Wierwille and other 'gifted" Way leaders. Now based on my experience I have formed some opinions,. This is a place to express those opinions. Just like anybody does. Fire away. But there never was any baby in that nasty bathwater...

Oh Tzaia, whence your handle, if you don't mind sharing it? It makes me think of Tanzania, where I was in December.

Mark, orthodoxy is not a bad word. Nor does it equate with dogmatism. Nor does it mean accepting a thing just because. It simply describes commonly accepted beliefs. Where my beliefs have come into agreement with mainstream orthodoxy, it has been preceeded by a process of study, enlightenment, discovery, and finally, change of belief. That's why I described it as a long & slow process.

Eye-opening indeed. Thanks. "We have parted company and I am going to focus on the goal of working to overcome Christian's persecuting Christians over doctrine and traditions. " Bravo! "That is the mentality of CES and of orthodoxy and I don't think it's right or what Jesus had in mind." Aren't you painting othodoxy with too wide a brush? I hope it's not a chip on your shoulder. Those Presbyterians are the picture of orthodoxy, yet they are demonstrating Jesus' love with you by your account. I've enjoyed what I like to call "my long slow slide into orthodoxy". I'm now nearly trinitarian, all but the name I guess. But the Godhead is, after all, unknowable in its fulness. I don't presume to explain God. And I don't have conflict over arguable points.

I disliked the wow burgers, but I kind of liked the bratwurst. And the fruit salad. I used to be chief top head boss lord man of that food operation. Ya know, the stretch from Farmers' Market all the way to the chicken shack. Grumelot was a smart guy. My stereo cabinet I still have Al helped me build. But the Way and its principles, when taken as a whole, bites. Other adjectives may also apply.

Steve, I am anti-Wierwille as any here (to which oldies would surely attest), but you cannot know that VP "lied" about Romans 9:4. Obviously, he was in error. I tend to think he mangled & squeezed it to make it "fit" into his already hopelessly wrong system of beliefs concerning "administrations". Hi D.A.! Oldies, I think D.A.'s point stands and to me it is incontrovertible. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Herbert Armstrong, Jim Jones ALL "taught lots of Bible", yet the Bible clearly disqualifies EACH of them from being considered a man of God. I won't argue the fact that what Wierwille taught was "truth". It was not. But let's say it was. His manner of life, public ministry, and attitude toward other Christians disqualifies him.

Lindy, I just ead that book a few months back. It's gripping, very well-written and enlightening...

We didn't have Lead (we had our own unique poisons)but I did chaperone a Teen Lead session some years later, all teens were from Indiana campus. Corps kids. They were stealing the truck stops BLIND every stop we made. Not a pleasant thing. Years later I discovered that I had also been evaluated, surruptitiously. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

The 'baby & the bathwater" rubrik doesn't fit for me. The rotten apple, or to put it biblically, the leaven illustration is appropos. SO WHAT if the Satanic Bible has "truth" in it, it's hopelessly corrupt. There are too many sound places to learn good things. That's how I view TWI teaching. Why bother? It's like drinking pee because it happens to contain water. Hey there's plenty of decent water available, folks.

I think you are mistaken, see me; I hope so too. I think Shell is chastizing some of the posters on this thread...

1. Evil as Geer was/is (yes, I think the word "evil" is apt), he did Der Veg a tremendous service by splitting it down the midsection so the guts could spill out all over the place. THAT was long overdue. It gave occasion for thousands to extricate themselves from bondage. 2. I agree with Mike that the upper echelon did not hold Wierwille's books in high esteem. They, like he, had become irrelevant. They knew what an unprincipled conniving cad he was. This was projected onto what he produed. Quite properly, I think.

I'm aghast at the tenor of "discussion" here. Can you just imagine Peter or Paul coming off with a smug "I know it all you poor sap, and you don't" attitude? If I hear "my Bible says" one more time I think I'll scream. Of one thing I am sure: none of you know for sure.

ex70's, please edit out the name willya? Forum rules are specific about that. No, she wasn't dropping a hint.

I find it telling & symptomatic that the roomie couldn't talk to you about it, Hope. Instead she had to narc you out. Reminds me of an incident my last year in rez. Me n a bud returned from the Country Kitchen late on night to find an 8th Corps guy passed out in front of Vollmer in his own puke.. Yeah, he was blotto. With the help of a few others, we dragged him to the showers, cleaned him & put him to bed. We excused him for breakfast, scored some alka-seltzer or similar and went to visit him afterwards. Turned out he'd gotten his allowance and spent it that night eating & going on a drunk. Alone. why, we asked. after probing, it was because he hated himself, he said. So we tried to help him with that. Never occurred to us to tell anybody. Not a thought. He made it through that year, I know. Later, when I was on staff, I noticed Corps people assigned to spy on other questionable Corps folks & report to M F**t. Seriously. Blew me away. We became something of an underground railroad for people leaving residence. Can't remember how that happened. Anyway, esprit de corps? NOT!

A side note: before the film class in '67, and to a lesser extent, after '67, many people taught Piffle. Mine was taught by Fugit. Later when he discovered Donnie had taped it, he demanded the tapes be burned. Interesting Mrs. W's account. It squares with what I know from my BG Leonard association. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses..."

I just happen to be wearing a t-shirt from Zoo Doo™. It's rhino crap, collected at the memphis zoo, "aged' and then bagged for sale. The little logo shows a rhino with rose clenched in his teeth. The caption is "Just Doo It" Cute.

He never claimed that "Croc" done stol it. He claimed that the Day-vull stole it cuz he mentioned it in the sayn-suz realm. I guess the dayvull gave it to Ray.

HCW, regarding Jacob, I understand how it is you believe what you believe about people changing themselves. It's wound up in Way doctrine and makes perfect sense in that context. There's another school of thought, which I believe is better supported by scripture, that says the Holy Spirit changes a person as he/she yields to the Lord. It says we are incapable of changing ourselves (Can a leopard change his spots?). I understand both points of view and believe the truth, theologically, lies with both views together...

So Mark, would you say you're a "Master Debater"? Sorry, couldn't resist :D--> Back to our regularly scheduled program... Incidentally, fellows, I thought there was a rule about profanity on these boards but I can't find it right now. Could you tone it down?

I realize this is a theological matter, but I fail to get that out of the Jacob record....

Mark took the words right out of my mouth. A gentleman would see that he wounded somebody and simply apologize. No qualifiers, no lengthy explanations.

Perhaps this deserves a separate thread considering the topic I see hovering this box, but I'd like to take issue with one of HCW's points. If I need to start a thread, y'all whip me with Ramen noodles & I'll move it. And, as a warning, the issue has been done to death here, but what issue hasn't? It's the issue of dealing with anothers' sins. Certainly, yes. With the caveat that it is conditinal. "If we confess our sins He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins & cleanse us from all unrighteousness". Two problems. 1. Confession & forgiveness, is it a patch for fixing us up every day so we can essentially do whatever the heck we want? He is faithful & just to forgive, yes? But you'd probably agree this is a gross misuse of the concept and does spite to God's grace, crucifies the Lord afresh and all sorts of other dire things. None of us know how much confessing is done by another, but we can see if they walk in the "fear of the Lord" or not. Clearly, these guys didn't. They were so brazen & so profligate for so long is beggars the imagination. 2. Is it okay, biblically, for a man to stay in ministry if he is using, stealing, lying, fornicating like a rabbit, manipulating, even raping? You cannot compare habitual unrepentant profligate behavior carried out over Many Years to David's sins or Jacob's character flaws. GOD CHANGED JACOB. Read Ps 51 to see David's attitude about his sin. And then HE CHANGED. Sexual predators don't heal. That's medical fact. Lock 'em up, period. (I'd also like to see castration, but that's another story.) Therefore I'm compelled to view his ministry as a fraud Therefore,

Just went on the 'net. The 6 zins, cheapest price was $25 ea. One French bottle I bought, cheapest price was 39! Two bottles turned out to be cheapies and 3 unknown. I'm going back tomorrow...

But KLM already serves free drinks, girl. And Kenya Air even serves free drinks on the little 55 minute puddle hop from Nairobi to Entebbe. Many passengers get 2. At once