TheEvan

It might be because, Garth, you've yet to post anything substantive to refute. Thus far they're wild accusations that appear to largely fantasy. F'rinstance, why deal with your implication that Calvin was a dictator? It's untrue. A whole cloth fabrication. It would get tedous to have to quote neutral histories at you when you could have read it yourself. I have no horse in this race. I'm not defending Calvin. I'm simply pointing out the emptiness of your rhetoric.

Look, Garth. You're making it quite clear you don't want a discussion. You'd rather throw bombs. Don't be surprised if all you see incoming is bombs lobbed your way. An honest discussion requires more than the bites being tossed around here. Besides historical context, as LG pointed out, you have to look at the whole of a person before broad-brush demonizing or sainting him. There was far more bloodshed associated with Luther's movement, by the way. I honestly don't see see how poor Martin recovered from the stain of the violence that erupted in Germany in the wake of his disappearance. But Luther, like Calvin, was a mix of good and bad. Calvin deserves an honest look for the deep influence (for good or for bad) he's had on Western civilization and the American experiment.

Actually the term for the doctrine you're speaking of, Mark, is election. They get the term from Rom. 9. Predestination, as a theological term, has more overarching considerations that focus on the final outcome of all things on earth & in heaven. If one is serious about the Bible, I don't see how one can honestly deny predestination. But the doctrine of election is another matter. The more I look at it, the more I see holes. Yes, I read Rom 9. No, it's not written to the Gentiles of Jews or whatever Wierwille said. By the same token, the more I look at it, the less I see salvation as our choice, and the more I see it as God's sovereign grace reaching down to man and enlightening a dark place with light. We need that revelation from in order to receive him. before that we are utterly in darkness and without hope. Like the disciples, we are incapable of knowing Christ for who he is until, like peter, it is revealed to us. Sorry for the rambling...

I know two local (never way) kids that attended his school as well. They're from a small "unitarian" denomination. Oh, and they grew up & have families. so much for the "kids" label...

We are on the same wavelength, CM. What I was focusing on is who does the freeing. Do we free ourselves from sin, or are we freed by somebody else? The answer, of course, is self-evident from the references you give above.

Not to nit pick, but this is a misnomer, biblically. It's not possible to free ourselves from sin.

Thoughtful writers have debated this since the beginning, but especially in wake of the many views that arose during the Reformation. So, Calvin & Luther (his excellent "Bondage of the Will" is worth a read) maintained man has essentially no free will, while the Arminians of all stripes came in on the other side. Libraries could be filled... The Bible has precious little to say about "free" will, except that ours should be submitted to God's will. It has lots to say of God's will. After all, that is the subject matter. I think it's simply a matter of perspective. Nobody is shoving us around making our every choice for us (and nobody except the most extreme Calvinist would say so), so from our POV, we have free will. On the other hand, God works all things after the counsel of his own will, causes all things to work together for good, etc. So from that perspective, it's all in God's hands. Seems simple enough to me.

Wow. I guess you told him. --> That's the problem when one gets too invested in some tightly wrapped belief system. Discussions turn into...this. Look folks, none of us really know, okay?

Doesn't fit, mdvaden. I repudiated Wierwille's teachings as having any value a long time ago. 17 yrs. ago... But I didn't replace them with a new set of beliefs that I thought better. Instead, I changed the focus of my Christianity. it was no longer about what I believe and being right, rather it became about who I am serving and knowing Him. In my experience, adherents to Wierwilleology don't know Jesus. He is the essence of our religion and he's basically absent from WayWorldOlogy. In the New Testament there were the pinheads who "worked the word" and knew it like nobody else. They were called scribes & Pharisees. They were the true Bible bleevers of their day. Then there were those who followed Jesus. They were known as disciples. The Master interpreted scriptures dark sayings to them. Peter didn't come to know Christ for He really was by working the texts and applying the "keys". As Jesus told him "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven." Think about it.

Try the internet. We managed an internet special at the Radisson for well under 100. Linda, you're right about about their restaurant. it's good but limited. But with all the dining options within a block or so, why bother. For a cheap meal, the little Greek cafe in the same block was wonderful...

re the nomenclature and all it conjures up: "gift of (lowercase) (no 'the") holy spirit". Gag me with a maggot!

We greatly enjoyed staying in the Dupont Circle area. We stayed at the Radisson, but there are plenty of other hotels near the Metro stop. Dupont circle is a trendy, artsy, ethnic enclave in the heart of Embassy Row. Lots of cool restaurants, shops & unusual diversions.

I know one, alfa. The guy's in a time warp. He's in some some splinter group that adheres stringently to the teachings of the MOGFODAT. His fervor drove off his fiancee (so hey, it's good for SOMETHING) and, I swear, he literally gets glassy-eyed, and curiously nervous, when sharing "the truth" with me.

I like it. A lot. I do think the original premise lacks a bit. I feel confident that the heart goes beyond our internalized life. But I'd agree that it includes these things. Though not all internalized things can properly be called "of teh heart". I mean, the fine left hand shifts & precise right hand feel involved in playing Bach's #1 cello suite on the guitar are mechanical/nerve/muscle memory items. My response to the music, the place I go to play it with meaning...that's the heart. The fact that we so easily imprint things when we are learning them adds weight to Jeremiah's charge, Jer 1:10 "See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." Us poor Wayfers (among many others) do well to heed this charge. If we are to build and plant effectively, we have some destructive work to do first. We've internalized a pattern of learning & of relating to Bible knowledge. I think it deserves the axe.

It's true, exc. I hated Euphoria. I really hated that place, the whole vibe. Everything about it. Our last year in rez was really awful. Lots of heartbreaking conflict, backbiting, division, cliques. But it's true I love a number of fine people I befriended there. I think many folks there were idealistic and seeking higher things. That can make for a fine bunch of people. It can make for some really wierd stuff, though, in such a closed society. I think the bad stuff our last year drove some to the craziness we indulged.

No I couldn't keep a straight face. But it seems GW was already tired of the issue and he didn't get crazy with me. The fart lighting set-up? Some things are better left alone.

Wow, I finally read this and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to post when I reach exc's above. Must bee the willl of Gawd. It was a trip to the Texas Prison Farm, my second of the year, I think we were planting onions this go-round. The hours, the push, the sunburns, and the unreasonable 5th cork guy who was there got to us all. I didn't atart the mooning. But I quickly joined in. Whenever Fisher rode by in his truck, we'd line up & moon 'im. And, apparently, while i was in another field, a "group picture" was taken, including one well-rounded female butt, but I didn't hear about it. Anyway, they take us to Lubbock on Wed. night for the movies. Casey's Shadow as I recall. And an exercise in misery. 50 miles of bumping in the old prison bus, I think all of us slept through the whole movie, and it was presented as an act of ultimate beneficience. Any, after the movie, we're riding through Lubbock streets & I'm standing up front talking with my good friend BK who is driving. Fisher pulls up beside us at the light and everybody starts yelling for me to moon him. I obliged, with BK operating the door. What I couldn't see, from my angle, was that Mrs. Fisher was in the car. Oops. Some 8th'er took offense & ratted me out when we returned to Euphoria. Problem was, within hours of returning I was shuttled off to Rome City for some plaster work for a week or two(actually I had plotted this earlier, anything to be gone from Euphoria). I didn't hear that all manner of deep doo-doo was happening back in Euphoria, including a Sikthpth Cork mtg where our boss man sez "I'm ashamed to call you Corps", at which my bud AK stands up in teh back and says, Groucho style "ok, call us something else then". Apparently it was all a big deal. Upon return to Euphoria, somebody says, darkly, JW wants to see you in his office now. I go in, again knowing nothing, unaware of being ratted out. JW has a picture, The Picture, which he slides across the desk to me. I'm too surprised & I start laughing. GW's not amused & axes me if I'm in the pic. I say no, but I did plenty of mooning, I confess. Then he did a half-hearted reproof & dimissed me. That's the Stow-Ree.

That was a brilliant post Bob. Where Wierwille goes wacky is the conclusion. Remember "if you & I dare not interpret it, there are only two possibilities: either no interpretation is possible or it must interpret itself." WOW. BOOOOGUS! A simple word study of "interpretation" & "Interpret" shows what the above verses show: The interpretation belongs to God. And Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would teach us, lead us into all truth. Frankly, I'm amazed at his obliqueness in missing the glaringly obvious.

mstar, at which venue did you catch Buckwheat? Grant Street perhaps? I dig zydeco. There are others I like more than Buckwheat, but he still has the groove, no doubt. I love Lafayette too. Too bad you didn't give me a shout before coming this way.

I've never taken much interest in Mike's postings, but I've read some of his stuff here. I'm quite amazed. And a bit amused at how you furiously rewrite the rules to save your self-generated illusion of rightness. Even with a question as innocuous as Linda's. Amazing. Question. Mike, have you ever responded to Raf's points concerning PFAL errors brought up when you first washed up on these shores? Raf, did he? I find few of the conclusions even arguable. Most seem so solid as to be incontrovertible. Not that I'm all that interested to tell you the truth. Curious, I guess.

'Twas another great trip, Mark. The bus ride across the expanse of the Great Rift Valley was a special treat. As usual, the most amazing thing about Africa is its amazing people. I'm still picking African boogers out of my nose, in case you're interested. I'm a bit puzzled why people become so obsessed with what are, in my opinion, unprovable doctrinal arguments. Believing the trinity has neither aided nor hindered many people through the centuries who have done amazing and profound things. I think any expression of the Godhead is, at best, incomplete. How can man express what is quite beyond him? That said, an expression that is grossly in error is harmful, no doubt.

Mark, if you have a real argument to make, I'd love to hear it. Something other than points meant to incite & demean...

Well, you return from the dusty roads of Kakamega Kenya and what do you find bouncing around these pages? Mike chooses an interesting rubrick which is a kingpin of his assertions: the English Bible is hopelessly flawed, especially the KJV. Mike you need a few lessons on the origins and state of the English bible, including the relative translation protocols of the various versions, recent shifts in textual theory including a debunking Westcott & Horts strange favoring of the Alexandrian family of texts. Mike, you are unworthy to even wipe the hiney of the least of the KJV translators. It is one of the crowning masterpieces of human history, forever remaking the role of our language in world events and setting the stage for the birth of our nation. A little reading may go a long way of raising your esteem for something you so readily trash. How convenient. create a Big Problem (where none exists). Then propose an Exclusive™ & Patented© solution to the fabricated problem. shady salesmen & grifters do it all the time...

After slugging a glass of even tap water I nearly always burp. You're quite the freak of nature, David. Smoke? Methinks you're smoking rope.

Incidentally I leave again day after tomorrow. This time to Kakamega, Kenya