TheEvan

Oak, the only condition necessary is that a thing be according to his will. He has his reasons, not all of which are clear to us. I don't believe we necessarily have a role to play. He's not waiting for you or me to push some button.

Perhaps you're using your terms too loosely. Righteousness & worth are not comparable, certqainly not theologically. Remember, it was Luther as a Catholic monk who suffered under his overwhelming sense of worthlessness. Understanding faith and grace removed that.

Oldiesman, that's not theologically sound. "Holy men of God spake..."

Garth, you've grossly mischaracterized Calvinism yet again. Theologically speaking... From a natural view, man has worth deriving from all sorts of quarters: wealth, intelligence, moral goodness, family fealty, etc. From a spiritual point of view, unregenerate man has worth because (among other things): He is made in the image of God. He is the object of God's undying and unwavering love. But, man is incapable of attaining righteousness before God in and of himself. For this he needs the sacrificial & substitutionary work of Christ on his behalf. Which is received by grace through faith, through no works of his own. Just thought I'd clear things up for you since it appeared you might need a bit of help. No need to thank me...

Good hit Bob! That's the stuff. My original "Studies in Abundant Living Vol 1" (there was only 1 volume in those days HAHA) opened with the first chapter as "The Magic of Beliving". I don't think anybody who took Piffle after 70 or 71 would have that old book. anybody ever see it?

I was never a CES-er even in the remotest sense, but I do get the impression it's a thing that sort of ran through the group, much like the personal prophecy thing I've heard about. Here I go commenting on a group with which I have no experience! I must have a death wish. I carefull paint a bullseye on my butt then whistle for Garth to come & get it. :)-->

Shell, that is a question for the ages, isn't it? That's why I pointed out that these things are signs. If the purpose of healings, for instance, were to make us well, then why are christians still dying? And why are some never healed, even those who "believe in it"? Why did Jesus walk by the lame man so many times, but Peter & John picked him up by the hand and he went off walking and leaping? I think part of the answer is that these things are signs. They are at God's discretion and for His reasons, not ours. But it is helpful to ask, "wow, why did that happen, here, now?" I think there is a meaning to be found, a message god is giving.

Self-worthlessness, Garth? Me? --> Could "we" be projecting just a teensy bit? (If anything, I could use knocking down a notch or two...no danger to my sense of worth!)

CM, I'll spare you the scriptural references, but all miracles & wonders are signs. A sign points to something, tells you something. For instance "that they might know that thou art the Lord". I have observed that when people receive healing in a ministering situation, they often feel 'noticed' and loved personally by God. The specific revelations declared are a sign that God cares about and loves them. And implies He is able to overcome their problem at their point of need.

No, it was Edgar Cayce who gave Moon a reading long ago back when he was a very secular 'bidnissman' in South Korea.

Though we did our workshop in 'Lanta (where were you, Garth, I can just TELL you need it.. :P-->) we came to know a couple from Houston who "did it". She is a practicing psychiatrist with a "hi-test" education. Never was Way. I was curious as to her take. In short, she dug it and found it very sound.

Secret sins were dealt with privately in the workshop. Me, myself & God. Things I wanted to deal with out in the open were done that way, if time allowed and things seemed to go that way. Another misconception. And who said people's will is somehow overthrown in the workshop and that it is coercive in nature? I didn't think so. I wantedto deal with issues. I worked hard to resist my self-protective impulse to keep those things closed up. As is often the case, those with the strongest opinions were never there...

How interesting. Do you find your church moving away from traditional Lutheran hymnody into newer forms? I guess I should have first asked if you're MS or ELCA. I ask because I love traditonal Lutheran hymnody, being a lover of Rennaissence music as well as Baroque. I've noticed that the congregation tens to trail off on the really old tunes. I think they find them somewhat obtuse by modern dumbed-down standards.

Yes. Selectively. But yes. I observed that those who I thought to be more fragile than I seemed to receive gentler treatment. Saw some pretty wild things when people were dealing with their issue "front and center" so to speak. One invovled a repressed memory "playing out" as if the participant was running a DVD of the event. Pretty scary to me, but it did a lot for her. (Yes, it was of sexual abuse when she was very young). I had a repressed memory come out too. Not as scary as that, and not in front of everybody. It was in one of the smaller group exercises. It's this kind of thing where the workshop can get pretty dangerous I think. As far as I could tell, all of our participants came through well & glad about it...but I could see an unstable person flipping out over it.

Though the hazing analogy doesn't fit here, participants seem to come out the other side with a similar sense of community. "Whoah, I climbed that mountain" sort of thing. Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, satori. You're making unwarranted suppositions about the character if the groups' leadership. Possessing a fair dose of cautious "Waydar" myself, my alarms would have have gone on red alert had I sensed a manipulative power trip. Again, speaking only from my experience. That said, I do see the points of the alarmists. Some of it soes seem alarming. Nevertheless, I'm an adult and capable of making my own decisions. I made mine and it worked out just fine.

Thank you for your confidence, exc, but I know what evil lurks in my sin-darkened heart. But now that I'm thinking about it, I probably took it that way because it is my dominant worldview...I see things through my Christian lens, so to speak.

Well, i concluded it to be, for me, profoundly Christian. Not particularly in doctrine, but insofar as the goal is to get one's actions to line up with their mouth, a goal mostly unmet in christian circles. On the other hand, I've never suggested to anybody that they go. On yet another hand, one or two people who liked what they saw & heard after I did it themselves went. with mixed results.

You make a point I meant to at least imply, Garth. "Forgiving" a person who has wronged you doesn't mean you've released them from consequences. If prosecution is in order, let it happen. I'm thinking especially of molesters. The molester will never be able to make full amends to those he's wronged. The victim needs to emotionally release the perp so as not to remain under that person's power. Meanwhile, by all means, I want the perp rotting in jail.

Garth, I'm not sure I can remember well enough to give a definitive answer, so my answer will be based on a combination of my memory and connections/conclusions I made on my own. Hard to separate at times, especially years later. Your question miscarachterizes what I think they're after. It would be more helpful to say this: You cannot do anything directly about those who have wronged you. I mean, you can't make them have a change of heart and suddenly come and with a truly repentant heart, offer apologies and make meaningful amends. If your wholeness depends on that, you will remain the victim, while the wrongdoer walks blithely along, unaware and untroubled by your broken life. The Momentus exercises seemed to do a good job getting me to a place inside myself where I could really let those people go and offer real forgiveness. It also brought me to the place of facing where I've wronged others. Where possible I repented and attempted to make appropriate amends. Now, I'm talking Momentus at its idealized best. Of course I fell somewhere short of doing a full job of what I just described. People come out it ecstatic & enlightened because they've just had an emotional enema, so to speak. I felt 50 pounds lighter. I had some clarity on my strengths & shortcomings. The problem is that people come out thinking that feeling is what the training is all about. It's a very nice feeling, but the experience is of real benefit only if somebody actually puts rubber to the road and walks out what has become clear. In my experience it is terribly rare. In my case, I walked out a bit of it, but never really out my plan into full effect. I have only myself to blame for that. But I am grateful for what lasting changes I did make.

Should make your engine really purr!

I didn't come in here to defend this program, or whatever you want to call it. But rascal, you made me. That is a gross misconception of what Momentus claims to be doing. It is not about 'getting off the hook'. Quite the opposite, it is about taking personal responsibility. There was an exWay leader helping with the sessions attended. In fact I'd been directly under him at least once back in my fair cult days. He wept on my arm, absolutely debasing himself and asking forgiveness for having wronged me. That was a reflection of what the session was all about. That doesn't square with your claim. And you're contradicting yourself. You say it's about shifting responsibility & getting off the hook for your actions. Then you say they're telling people to quit being a whiny victim, ie, take responsibility. Which is it? I hate that you "made me" (how's that for 'blame shifting' :D-->) come in here & defend. I have nothing to defend. I had a personal experience which is mine alone. No need to defend that. If you don't want to go, don't. If you don't ant others to go, start a campaign, I guess.

My wife & I did it at the urging of my never-Way sister. For us it was a great experience, particularly for my sisters & I. It gave us a chance to work out some things of the past "infornt of God & everybody". I understand that some others shouldn't take it. My biggest disappointment is that, in my experience, everybody gets a good high off of it, but few actually walk out the changes they saw as possibilities in the training. I don't fault the training, though I think there could be a more rigorous follow-up to help people achieve what they saw as possible. Both of my kids did Gap for teens. My son dug it but now considers it brainwashing. My daughter did it, dug it and really "gets" it and is passionate about what it can do for people. So, she's helped out and made it one of her service areas in life. But, that's somewhat limited as there is no Gap structure anywhere near here. YMMV, but it is what you make it to be.

No Africa? Jeez, whadda bunch of provincial dunderheads.

My friends came by to borrow rubber boots to check on their camp in the Wavelad/Bay St. Louis environs. They came back yesterday shell-shocked. Waveland is completely gone. They found one of their boats about a mile away hung in a tree. The other one, the large cabin cruiser, is completely missing. Somehow the roof of the camp remains. But the house itself is gone, with the roof set down on the foundation. Weird. The trees are all barren, the leaves having been stripped. All vegetation is dead and is evenly coated down to the tiniest twigs with a nasty charcoal black goop. It gives the landscape an otherworldly & distinctly malevolent look. They were still creeped out after the long drive home...

Nothing theological here. Just the observation that the kind of narrow teaching featured in that masterpiece of fractured theology known as Piffle leads to some silly conclusions. In Wierwillia, fear bad, confidence good. I work at heights. I have learned that confidence bad, fear good. I've come to think of much fear as a gift of god...responses he gave us in order to survive. Thus, when confronted with a burning building, fear tells me not go in there. I didn't and here I am. I suppose one could say that Wierwille wasn't talking about that kind of fear and that he was talking only about bad fear. Or perhaps irrational fear. Fine. But he didn't say that. The small tidy boxes into which he tried to stuff his theology eventually prove to be much too small.