Kit Sober

Agreeing on the distinction between forgive and forget. For the person who was wronged: When we forgive it's for ourselves. Forgiveness puts the onus of judgement on the Lord. Our job is to love, by giving Christ's love to others. To refuse to forgive hurts the person who does so the most because it allows bitterness to take root in one's very own soul. Refusing to forgive also, it seems creates a wall between a person and his Lord. Jesus in those final words said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," and for us to do different puts us out of sync with the Lord (and in the sink going down the drain). For the wrong doer: Repenting (changing the course of one's life) and Restitution (restoring the right of a situation) is part of what one does to work out his or her own salvation. And making things right with the Lord. Between fellow men and between the Lord. Being restored to church leadership I would say is an individual situation. ... and more on my opinion of eternal consequences: And since we deal with opinions here, and not facts of "absolute truth," I think that the references to people being crowns in the hereafter (I Thessalonians 2:19) signifies that a form of spiritual order will be found at that time as well. In other words, I believe that Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, and others I have found to have been truly godly leaders on earth -- and I think that these people have many other people in their crowns of rejoicing -- and I think that those crowning relationships will somehow be shown for all eternity (as will all the other crowns we are building today). And therefore any truly spiritual greatness of a person will be shown / revealed. In circa 1972, regarding a most precious cleaning lady in the hospital I worked, the Lord showed me she was a queen in His eyes. I expect the regal quality of Mrs. Pipkin (I think that was her name) and others of spiritual royalty will be more obvious and apparent when we get to heaven. I expect that true scummy people will not even be there. I personally classify vpw as a scummy person. And the Lord does have the whole world in His hand. Heaven's citizenship is the Lord's prerogative. Hopefully,

overall it is comforting to me to see this (as with so many discussions here) because I was led to believe by twi that the Muppets, Jim Henson, Sesame Street were ~~~~seed of the serpent~~~~~ and oh so dangerous. Thanks so much for helping to restore a measure of sanity.

Is this what you are looking for? From "The Sesame Street Book and Record". 'Green' is ©1970 Jonico Music, Inc. It's not that easy being green; Having to spend each day the color of the leaves. When I think it could be nicer being red, or yellow or gold... or something much more colorful like that. It's not easy being green. It seems you blend in with so many other ord'nary things. And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're not standing out like flashy sparkles in the water or stars in the sky. But green's the color of Spring. And green can be cool and friendly-like. And green can be big like an ocean, or important like a mountain, or tall like a tree. When green is all there is to be It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why? Wonder, I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful! And I think it's what I want to be.

Tuesday nite was a tv special, and the Chapmans and others who support them had a chance to speak their piece. It is airing again on AE TV: "Dog: The Family Speaks" Sunday, September 24 11:00am EST Saturday, September 23 5:00pm EST Thursday, September 21 1:00am EST Wednesday, September 20 9:00pm EST Wednesday, September 20 2:00am EST Also more information may be obtained at (These web pages were set up in the last few days for the purpose of supporting Duane Chapman and his family and friends): Free the Dog Defense Fund of Tanya "Doe" The website started by Tanya "Doe," one of the rapist's victims who believes Dog and his crew literally saved her life (The 124 year prison term he is serving despite the most high priced lawyers money can buy, should indicate the type of violent criminal he is, and the relief we all should feel that he is off the streets.) Web site with political information on what a person can do This web page has who to write, who to call, who to email in support of Duane Chapman and family and friends. Another Free the Dog web page This web page has a bunch of links. This page also has a petition to sign. It was at 12K a couple of days ago when I signed it. Now there are over 47K names/signatures.

Another game of mouse control: Fly this helicopter

As much as I don't like to admit it, Reno 911 is true, too true. There's Dallas Swat. Dog the Bounty Hunter and Reno 911. Embarrasing but true.

Abigail's thread on the tithe Abigail gives some nice stuff about the Tithe from a Jewish perspective, also in this forum.

So sorry. I just copied a prayer request without editing it for accuracy. Oh dear. I went back and edited the relationships a little. Tim Chapman is Christian brother / friend. Leland Chapman is son of Dog Chapman by previous relationship. The show is full of family members. It's nice to me. I grew up with people calling dear friends brother and cousin and uncle, etc., even though not blood related. So this is not a problem to me. dmiller: you said A big difference between vpw and Dog Chapman is that the former was a cheap con, and the latter does not only profess but (it appears to me) works with all he is to live a Christian life. This, to me, is a big point. Ignoring the integrity of a man's heart as a factor in determining opinion is what we were taught in twi. Everyone was wrong except us, and we were never led to look at a whole situation, only to judge little pieces of conflicting doctrine, for instance. Dog the Bounty Hunter is a reality show, and you watch the actual bounty hunting process, and can see the effect on people's lives, both the capturing team, the captured, and other people with whom they come in contact. On one segment I watched, Duane Chapman was given a citation by the mayor of a city in Hawaii for the community service he performed, and the attendees of the event included now-thankful people the team had turned into prison. I think that if there is any falsity of heart, the show would have collapsed. It appears that Duane's wife Beth is also facing criminal charges. I am sorry for the lawbreaking, but still hope and pray things work out for them. I am thankful for the kindness of Christ they bring into the world. And I am thankful they let people see their whole lives of living Christianity. It's so much more than preaching from the pulpit. "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day," and that's what this show has given to me.

Thank you very much for the comfort you give by your posts. I received the following prayer request from an email prayer list, and it reflects my opinion of the thing. I hope you are right, especially excathedra, and that things will work out ok. I am especially thankful to see that Luster is presently serving 124 years in jail, and that those who were injured by him have some sort of closure to the situation.

Addressing the issue of "speaking in tongues = twi mindspeak": A reminder: vpw plagiarized from BG Leonard, JD Stiles, EW Bullinger and many others. Although he may have mentioned other people in acknowledgement of having studied with them, it was always with a supercilious air of "if he only knew what I know. . ." to the end that twi people were stamped with a predudice against anything non-twi as unimportant because, certainly, all important things they had to say had been included in the illustrious works of vpw. I did a search at Christian Book Distributors website for "tongues" and received 267 different items. Note: for anyone who wants to buy vpw books: A search of amazon.com interestingly revealed many. Speaking in tongues did not begin or end with TWI. A major revelation into the corporate Christian consciousness was given by the Azuza Street mission in California, and neither the original testimonies nor the 100th anniversary events this year mention vpw at all (that I have seen). I wasn't there for either event. Currently almost if not all of the non-denominational evangelistic groups (degradingly insulted by vpw categorically because they did not live up to his high standards) have been steadily working with Holy Spirit through the years and developing the Biblical doctrines and explanations of speaking in tongues. A recent book that started me thinking along this line was "The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues" by Mahesh Chavda. This man, Mahesh Chavda came into holy spirit arena with a ministry of prayer and fasting, and he and his wife coordinate at the minimum a Friday nite all nite prayer and fasting service, which is broadcast over the internet. From his introduction, " 'I thank God I Speak in tongues more than you all.' Spoken by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:18. In Mahesh Chavda's new book The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues, we are once again reminded and carefully taught about the incredible possibilities available in speaking in tongues. This spiritual gift, much maligned and controversial in our day, was a vibrant and necessary part of the worship and intercession of the early Church. It is an experience that hungry believers long to rediscover here in the twenty-first-century Church, as millions search for a more meaningful understanding and relationship with their Lord. As he softly removes the mystique and mystery overshadowing this glorious gift, Chavda challenges the Body of Christ to pursue afresh the secret dynamic of speaking in tongues."

Costco Reno NV was $2.79 9/16/06.

Adding my Welcome, also Greg123 :) Agreeing with Oakspear :) Once we begin to let go of the the pat phrases (which imho pat our minds into numbness) the Holy Spirit is able to begin to speak to us about how He views things -- and because each of us knows in part only, we find that others have their touch of Him which may not be verbatim our viewpoint, yet both are from Him -- Ohmygoodnesscanthisbeso? Charity is one of my favorites. When looked at it as an unlabeled word, it can be filled with the kindness of the Holy Spirit. "love" (which most versions currently translate agape) is more of a defined word and, for me, it's easier for my mind to have "charity" as a silly putty shaped word that fills up all the cracks and crevices of need with the Lord's kindness. (It's not just opening a hospital in Uganda or Mother Theresa's home for the dying in India, but the kindness and whole-hearted sacrifices of the people who make these places live.)

Times they are a changing. Scott Peterson was found guilty 11/22/04 not only of murdering his wife, Laci, who was eight months pregnant, but also of second-degree murder in the death of the fetus.

I was thinking to post a discussion a discussion about this person / family / group of people / TV reality show because it is one of the tv programs I have been enjoying. It's unique because the main character was radically saved by the Lord Jesus Christ and praying and giving Christ's love, in the name of Christ (I thought it must be in the contract that the tv station cannot edit it out) But then on 9/14/06 he / they were arrested. Any of you been watching "Dog the Bounty Hunter" on TV? Any insight into this? He/they were arrested for bounty hunting in Mexico, and bounty hunting is illegal in Mexico. Wikipedia article about him Dog the Bounty Hunter web page

George Steinmetz, the photographer, web page The guy is a natural wonder.

States: testing 1.2.3 testing 1.2.3

I remember in some circa 1963 psychology class (when I was just-out-of-high-school and in college), the professor professed that when someone puts another [or some thing] in a box, it has the emotional effect of giving the person a feeling of power over the other. Rather than soaking in the depth of the figure of speech (or a type of incense of the Lord) if you spend too much time defining the thing maybe by "the Ford explaining Henry" logic we are trying to have defining power over the Lord. And although the Ford could not try to define Henry, people spend (I would say squander) a lot of time trying to define God. I just received a Timothy Botts illustrated Bible. Tim Bott's work is an example to me of work to deliver the depth of a figure / putting a face to the figures of speech -- instead of trying to understand it by defining it, but to stand under the banner of Him unfurled. Timothy Botts is one of my all-time favorites. If you look at his stuff, maybe you can see what I'm trying to say. Not only the verbage of the text, but also the media he uses, the background, the shapes of his letters, and the way each letter sets on the page form his illustrations. His stuff gives new meaning to the word "awesome" for me. Tim Botts Gallery

Very nice Abigail. One reason I like Catholic Church is that the major outreaches funded by Catholics are hospitals, fresh water, food, clothing, shelter, hospitals, education, self-sufficiency (buying a cow, or a sewing machine to encourage self-sufficiency). Also I support Voice of the Martyrs (persecution.com) and Open Doors (begun by Brother Andrew of 1955 Bible smuggling -- "God's Smuggler" -- fame) Stuff like that. I did not know that the Jews had such a nice way of putting their/our responsibility to keep giving, as a token of remembrance that all that we have came from the Lord. Thanks, again,

I don't know if this has been posted, but the definition of murder is, according to Websters, "The crime of unlawfully killing a person esp with malice aforethought. . ." By definition the swatting of a fly is not a murder.

Hiways 1 and 101 in California. North of San Francisco, through the Redwoods of northern California it's 101, then down through San Francisco and over along the the rugged California coast and the hidden beaches, surf and sand -- it's Hiway 1, the Cabrillo Hiway. Been too long since I've seen it. Thanks for reminding me.

John 3:16. I don't know about it being a retemory, but it's in the class -- forgodsolovedtheworld -- when he's dealing with uncials and cursives. I have been working to understand this (as in stand under it) for 34 years -- since I set in pfal. It's as mysterious to me now as it was then. It's always good for a laugh, though.

What's wrong with church? Lots of stuff because it's made up of people. And people are sinners. That's why Jesus had to die for us. Currently I am called Catholic. What I like about Catholic church: :)Lots of nice things about the service. It's just filled with little kindnesses. Communion is focal point of the service. The "sermon" (called homily) is not focal point of the service. Rarely is there yelling. Since leaving twi I can recall two loud yelling times from the podium (out of hundreds of time). When the priest says a blessing such as "the Lord be with you," the congregation often responds with "and also with you." There is a time for greeting each other. The Lord's prayer. :)Money to Catholic church builds schools and orphanages, soup kitchens, and hospitals. It is really working. :)Catholics I have found are more interested in getting their own lives together and right with the Lord than telling others what to do. Other churches. The Lord is healing me of the supercilious stare with which I used to look down my nose at other groups as they endeavored to do their best to live for the Lord. Now I enjoy whenever I go to other churches. And I try always to look for the Lord in these places. I am always looking for the face of Jesus. My opinion. Hopefully,

Received this prayer request and thought it was a good example of the abuse that can happen when there is a public sentiment that can easily outweigh the justice our system is supposed to uphold:

Re if Mrs Wierwille had tried to blow the whistle and then been marked as "mark and avoid": Well it happened to some of us, and although it was painful at first it got me out of that place. I lost a lot of friends, most of whom I will not see until we meet again in heaven, but overall I am glad to have my mind as my own. And her kids would have known that it was better to fight than to take abuse silently. I think it's always more healthy to fight against tyranny and abuse.

I also add my sorrow and prayers for his family and loved ones.