Kit Sober

Thanks for this thread. Hitch hiking to LEAD was turning point in my feelings of inferiority and helplessness and personal blame for not being more spiritual in this God-service business. Thanks, again.

Another year, another thank you very much, Pawtucket. Hope you are having a great time at this stuff. You certainly make it easier for us to have a nice time of our lives.

Since Jesus Christ is Heir of all Things (Hebrews 1:2), will He help us get our hair together nicely? From this referenced book, of course we also know that He helps us with our tea and coffee, which He brews with us.

About Del Duncan here

Here's the forum helps thread on posting a picture: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/20899-how-to-add-picture-to-post/

In this day and time there's the comic relief of Entertainment: http://www.greasespo...-talk-soup.html (not exactly Brian Bliss, Skip Mesquite or some of the others who have poured their lives out for our entertainment.)

Here is a link to BG Leonard's page links: http://ctcoftexas.com/bgleonard.html, I know that BG Leonard has passed away, but some ex-twi people have taken his class. here's a link to another Greasespot thread that discussed GB Leonard's class. http://www.greasespo...y-spirit-class/

From Geisha779 I think it's part of the Holy Spirit's sense of humor and way of teaching us to always lean on Him. Circa 1982 I was praying for a friend who was on maternity leave, for her to have a peaceful and very quiety time (which was what I would like to have). However, when she returned to work and I asked her how her vacation had been, she said, "BORING. B -O-R-I-N-G. . . " Of course I never told her that's what I had been praying for.But it was funny to me. Needless to say I listen to the Lord's direction in my praying for others. Indeed we cannot know what we should pray for as we ought without the Holy Spirit's direction.

Waysider: You are not the only one who was taught to put Jesus Christ and the Bible into an "Easter Bunny" category, and I trust vp et al will be (have been?) held accountable for their work in this regard when they meet Him face to face. That being said.... The Bible remains for me Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. And 2011, as the 400th anniversary of KJV, so it seems to me that this thread is right up to date with what Christians are musing about on other places of the web. You can also get a 1611 copy of the thing at Amazon.com. I have given 1611 versions to hard-to-reach intellectual friends and a family member who could be intrigued by the historical/intellectual value of the thing. I especially like the expanded introduction of the 1611 which demonstrates such reverence and awe for the Lord and His holiness and the meekness of the translators before the Lord, which is often missing, in my opinion, in other translations which emphasize the credentials of the translators over those of the Author. I find myself at home in kjv. It's my conversation piece so to speak. I am hard of hearing physically, and only the Lord would always hear me and I could hear and understand Him. Many of the notes in my old Bibles are "out" dated, but the Bibles are reminders of memorable teachings punctuated by Holy Spirit emphasis (Del and others had that Way about their words :) ) I find that the door between my heart and the Lord's is often most quickly opened by kjv language. As I have said at other tables in this Greasespot Cafe, The Message by Eugene Peterson is been another good version I love. Eugene Peterson developed his translation as he was translating God's Word into a language those of his youth ministry could understand. It's in a modern language with a depth of understanding of the heart of the Lord, in my opinion. I also, as others, have gone through a period of comeuppance when trying to communicate with church members of other churches. Trying to fit into the general body of Christ coming out of a cult requires much carving off of sharp edges, depending upon the depth of cult-level thinking. My cult mentality (and the arrogance etc. thereof) was pretty deep, but God has had good kind mercy upon me. I still have church, I still have the Bible, and most importantly, I still have Him, for which I am so very thankful. My goal now is relationship, both with the Holy Spirit and with others, and all versions of the Bible can be used for that. I generally leave my battered old Bibles at home or in the car lest people get the wrong impression and mistakenly think I am some kind of Bible scholar.

Thanks. So many precious memories of them. Long before the heartaches and heartbreaks.

Although ignored in twi, the subject of hell is important to me, both what it is and how to stay out of it. Learning about hell has increased my urgency for lost souls, to present to them the certainty of the place. This week Bill Wiese and his lovely wife Annette are on Sid Roth (http://www.sidroth.org) and present clearly the reality of the place. Bill Wiese on Sid Roth This link currently will take you to the Bill and Annette Wiese segment on Sid Roth, but if it is only for the "current" segment, then you can always search on Sid Roth's web page for the segment with them. The subject of intercession reminded me of this subject of hell because often the remembering the reality of hell encourages me to fight relentlessly for people in prayer -- I also don't want to see anyone go there. An especially noteworthy statement of Bill Wiese (for me) is the reiteration of the Biblical statement that hell was made for the fallen angels and demons not for people. Which fits with our understanding that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

stupidity only. I'm sorry. pc has mind of its own sometimes.

Thanks so much for this. I loved the light you shine on this section of scripture. One of the versions I have grown to love also is Eugene Peterson's "The Message," which grew out of the work he did translating scripture for the street kids he worked with as a youth pastor. And this fits exactly with what you show. What a seamless God He is! I am also amazed at how these words to not preclude persecution, torture, and murder as possible occurrences for Jesus Christ's loved ones, but surely preclude any of these events that may happen to us from separating us from our dear Lord. I have a dear friend Cliff Lott who is Baton Rouge LA, and prior to Katrina the Lord had him store away food and water and other things. Then when Katrina hit, he was able to take care of his family and friends and they set up a tent in a dry parking lot. No sweat. He didn't even miss a beat. In fact he sent me a lovely mardi gras music box. (He certainly wasn't asking for handouts!)

What about that pyramid cleaning products stuff? (Amway?) That was pretty ubiquitous. Some people required purchases to remain friends, and when I didn't buy the friendship was cut off. And also the great revelation of "Steed" Seems like business acumen, just like true holiness, was not a significant component of twi. I have a lot of respect for the LDS people who teach their families and children good business practices and business ethics, which is what I believe Christians should do.

One of the reasons (among many) that I thought it was important to document the plagiarism is because when vp presented as his own the works of others, we were not able to read things in their original, when the holy spirit was in power and in truth. Plagiarized works have not the life that the original had. I was especially struck with this when Pawtucket's request for documentation encouraged me to search through dusty stuff and I got to rereading JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" which is full of the tender longing of the Holy Spirit to see all see all people completely saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. How pitiful it is that we gained so much arrogant head knowledge without the heart of compassion and yearning for a true "closer walk with Thee." (JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" is on amazon.com for less than $10.) Another example is Oral Roberts' "Christ in Every Book of the Bible" originally published in 1965 with subsequent printings and copyrights. When vp did his version he didn't say, "Hey Oral Roberts did this also, here is my version, and you can do one too. Jesus Christ is limitless, and each of us see a different "face" of Him because He is so fathomless." No. Instead vp acted like his version was the only one and any other person's version was a counterfeit of his genuine article (which of course is class a crxp). Here's a version from a Methodist: http://powdersprings...ove%20Notes.pdf; and here is another one: http://livingwordnew...20Bible.doc.pdf. And here's from a Baptist guy: http://www.scionofzi..._every_book.htm. And another one: http://jesuslovessaj...k-of-bible.html. They are all so precious. (I'm polishing up my version as well :) ) Jesus Christ is our all in all and searching out the revealing of Him in the pages we read should be a most precious treasure. TC Horton, in 1925 did this book of "The Wonderful Names of Our Wonderful Lord, Three Hundred and Sixty-Five Names and Titles of the Lord Jesus Christ as Found in the Old and New Testament" Moody Press adapted it and copyrighted their version in 1994, and Barbour Press printed the original and recopyrighted it in 2005. And you can buy it for $.01 plus $3.99 shipping on Amazon.com. It's pretty cool. The works of researching His presence in our lives should be ongoing for each of us who desires that closer walk with Him and such work should be encouraged and not prevented by teachers. It would be a foolish math teacher who tried to limit his students' math knowledge to the scope of his class, and so a Bible teacher should always be mindful that students need to be kicked out of their little "nest" (and not chained to it).

Geisha779. Thanks. That is so cool about knowing the DC Talk guy and that he is real. I have only seen them on the stage or in print. And I also send those letters out and love doing that. I agree with you on the wickedness of vp et al. That speaking disparagingly of martyrs (as though they didn't have the "believing" to avoid the "fiery dart") never set right with me. I have always loved Christians found in other groups and am so thankful for this Greasespot Cafe (and Transchat(?) and WayDale) for helping sever those bonds of affliction with that group so I could go back to enjoying going to "church" with them and reading the stuff they like to read. Thanks, again. I am not and was not trying to tell you something you don't know (in the twi fashion of bombarding you with my version of the one-and-only-truth) but merely stating where I was coming from. My opinion, which we are both allowed to have here in the Cafe. This very feature is so precious to me because I was never freely allowed opinions during those 20+ twi years, and afterwards also I continue to couch many of my thoughts (guess what, I am a Catholic now and no Catholic wants to hear that I believe that Joseph abandoned Mary and the kids and that another grief Jesus endured was growing up without a father in the house). Anyway, I just love coming to this Greasespot Cafe because I can freely speak my mind. Love it:)

What's so nice to hear is the true life of the Holy Spirit in his words. Thanks so much for posting this. (I put a link in the plagiarism thread to this thread.)

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22326-rev-lee-vayle-influenced-vpw/ Rev Lee Vayle's works referenced

Linda Z - Thanks. Geisha779 - My opinion is that forgiveness is not about vp or lcm and what they have done. Acts 7:60 shows Stephen, after he has seen heaven opened and the Lord Jesus Standing at the right hand of God, he forgives those who stoned him to death: "...And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." Forgiveness is the way of the Lord and the way to open heavens and the presence of the Lord for us. I have read much of Christian martyrs and their stories are awesome records of grudgeless hearts before the Lord. I have a poster in the kitchen from "Voice of the Martyrs" (persecution.com) that says "It didn't end at the Coliseum. Christians still die." DC Talk, a rapping happy music group who I heard during a tour with Billy Graham (circa 1995), has issued two volumes of "Jesus Freaks" stories of 20th Century martyrs. And of course Foxe's Book of Martyrs is such precious reading. These things are heartbreaking reminders of Jesus' words that the devil hates us. The amazing thing to me when reading the stories of those men and women who have suffered and died in service of the Lord, and their families who carry the same story of the Lord forward, is the grudgeless heart these people show. Jesus' "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and Stephen's, "Lay not this sin to their charge" are echoed in the lives of those who die daily (that's what martyrs have done) because they love the Lord with their whole heart soul mind and strength. Pope Paul II and Ronald Reagan forgave the men who tried to assassinate them and Martin Luther King's family has forgiven the man who assassinated him. That's what Christians do. Just a few days ago there was the heartbreaking story of Shahbaz Bhatti and Iraqui Christian who was assassinated. At persecution.com and countless other places are stories of the persecution, torture, and murder of Christians, and nary a word of revenge, spite, bitterness, or any grudging from these people who have had acid poured on them, been hacked to pieces with dirty axes, gruesome horrible unspeakable things people endure because they are (or were) people who had heard of the Lord Jesus. Shahbaz Bhatti, when he had visited to New York ran up to a man on the street with a cross on his neck and gave him a great big hug and said, "Brother, in my country you would be killed for wearing that." Right now in USA people do not often endure that obvious persecution and we have the freedom to offer our prayers and support to defend the rights of others to worship and alleviate a small portion of suffering endured. We are bound with them who suffer (Hebrews 13:3). Being reminded of these things ensures that the wickedness of vp et al is viewed in perspective and reminds me how important it is that I retain my relationship with the Lord so my prayers for others are not hindered, which is my primary vocation right now. Additionally, I find that I can grieve more freely for those who suffer when there is no bitterness or grudging in my heart. I believe God is like that. He grieves deeply to see people suffer. Our grief is then for the person who suffers only, and family and loved ones. Wicked people are not part of our lives. They are out in the cold by choice. In hope, Kit

Geisha779: I have tried to address Jesus Christ's most monumental statement of forgiving: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and that in my opinion Jesus Christ is speaking of all people who have ever lived and who ever will live and maybe dogs and cats who sin too. I'm not real sure about that one though, even though I know dogs and cats and pet parakeets will be in heaven and therefore they must have chosen to be good here on earth, which means they must have had the opportunity to sin and therefore Jesus took their sins, too. Please don't try to take that one to the bank. It sounds good but could be just a joke. But Jesus Christ did take all our sins and griefs to the cross. He suffered and died for all of us. In my opinion, forgiveness about the forgiver. God in Jesus Christ made a great ocean of forgiveness available. And when we forgive, we are in agreement with God that that ocean of forgiveness is available to them. When I forgive, I am not condoning belittling anyone's wickedness, I am simply agreeing with God that the ocean of forgiveness God has given us in Jesus Christ is theirs for the asking. I am not standing in the way. I am not holding any grudges against any because I need to stay in that ocean of forgiveness myself, and from there I can say anyone else is welcome to dive in. Because I am surrounded in this ocean of forgiveness by God's forgiveness, I can only remain in here as I am forgiving. Additionally, for me to judge anyone who I think is more vile than me is a joke because the Good Lord constantly affirms to me that without Him I am a wretch like the song says. I've got this arthritis and without the Good Lord's help and strength and support and everything, I can't even walk up a flight of stairs. I am frequently reminded of the story of the mote and the beam when I get to looking at someone else with a supercilious stare. I have two aunts who had alzheimer's and figure if I can still add two and two I'm in the category of "grace abounding." I know that I cannot go two steps or think two things without the help of the Lord, therefore I just got to have Him there, and it takes forgiveness to keep in His presence. It's worth it to me. Mark 11:25,26: 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. Matthew 7:1-5 1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? <A name=5> 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. Luke 6:37 37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Jesus bore our sins, all of us, me, you, and hitler and vp, and the scribes and pharisees, too, and therefore when he said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do," it's forgiveness for all of us, not only the soldiers who beat him and parted his garments. My opinion is that to shrink these words of Jesus to refer only to the immediate few that were there with scourges and hammers in hand at this most crucial hour in the His-story of the world is not correct. Jesus' forgiveness does not condone or in any way depreciate the wickedness (he paid the full price for hit), Jesus' forgiveness was the requirement for His enduring relationship with His Father. No one can hold any grudge against another and have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's an "either or" proposition, in my opinion.

I really respect you Oldskool. Being able to differentiate between who has the responsibility to forgive what was something that the Bible clearly teaches -- and what was especially appealing to me about Catholics: I only confess my own sins. A priest does not want to hear me "confess" anyone else's sins. Jesus could forgive people's sins because he was the Son of God. But except for him, the forgiving I see must be to "whoever you have ought against." (Mark 11:25,26) -- From what Jesus says, unforgiveness is holding anything at all against someone. It is so important that we don't hold anything at all against anyone if we want our own sins forgiven. ("25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.") That old prayer seems most appropriate to me, "Dear Lord, I am doing ok right now but I will need Your help from here on out because I'm going to get out of bed now." Also I find myself in need of forgiveness on a minute by minute basis. I remember reading an article about Mother Teresa in a Catholic periodical by an ordinary Catholic writer, and she mentioned that Mother Teresa, after the interview asked her if she would hear her confession (Mother Teresa was really a nice person!!!!!). But it so impressed me that if Mother Teresa was in need of confession "right now" then surely it's not a stretch to understand that I do also, and "right now" is really good to get it. Therefore I must keep my forgiveness current as well. I know that 2 Corinthians 2:11, "Lest satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices" is in the context of forgiveness -- "us" get taken advantage of when we fail to forgive. Thanks for listening to me. What a treasure that is: to be able to speak and to be heard by someone. Thanks so much, Pawtucket et al.

Sharpie has these "Gel Highlighter" pens that don't bleed through Bible paper. Walmart has them pretty cheap. It is so nice to find something that works on the Bible, and I thought someone here might get a kick out of it, too.

OperaBuff. I found I enjoyed church more when I wasn't looking for what I could get but what I could give. And I can always pray for these people. These are people that we will be spending eternity with, and perhaps our prayers will help someone(s) overcome something or do something better than if we weren't there. Maybe someone in that "sucky" band would get closer to the Lord and our prayers would help lift him/her up into the heavenlies and he/she would bring back more heavenly music into the place. I trust that, like Aaron and Hur held up Moses' arms so that the battle could be victorious, our prayers will help hold up others' hands and our battle against the devil (which we all struggle against) will be likewise victorious.

forgiveness and leaving. I don't think a person can leave and truly escape the torturer without forgiveness. At first I tried one little forgiving and could feel a tentacle come off me, like a tent stake stuck into me. It was such a relief! Forgiving in no way reduces the crime committed, in fact I believe it puts the crime more completely on the criminal. Before forgiving, the tortured carries the criminal around all the time, somehow sharing and increasing the horrors of it (like a woman who has been physically and mentally abused by her husband and then, even though he was incarcerated and no longer a threat, she develops a phobia to the degree that she cannot leave her house, which is the story that Brian Adams relates on the Sid Roth video segment). Forgiveness sets the captives free. Forgiveness isn't about setting vp or lcm free, it's about setting us, the victims, free from the lingering effects of their crimes (and those of others who have abused us, and even forgiving ourselves for our own crimes).