Thomas Loy Bumgarner

Like Ham, I would bring back Rock of Ages, but have it move around the country. Also return Wierwille and Kipp property to John Paul, Sara Kathryn, Mary Ellen, Karen Ruth and their children who may chose to tear down any building they desire, or sell it to Shelby and Auglaize counties for an industrial park to help the local economy.Oh excuse me, I didn't know the polling was over.Although this in in jest, some of the issues are real and needed to be addressed seriously.

2 other campaign promises : get an outside auditor to go over the financial records and offer refunds to those who paid for classes(Since in my earlier post about Alpha, Beta, Beginnings, Christian Believer,etc. is free of cost and you may drop out, no green card/contract to sign) and free beer and unpolluted pizza for all.Please vote today here online at greasespot cafe.No fund raisers.

I declare my candidacy for President of the new and improved TWI. 1. admit past sexual harassments by LCM and allowing former members to sue in both criminal and civil courts. 2. kick out Rosalie Rivenbark, Harve Platig, Jean-Louis what's his name, and other BOT/D, Robert and Dottie Moneyham, Howard and Imogene Allen, etc and say don't come back. 3. Replace Way of Abundance and Power/Power for Abundant Living Classes with Nicky Gumbel's Alpha/Questions of Life and United Methodist Church's Beginnings/Along The Way and other such materials too many to mention. 4. Make The Way International Biblical Research Institute truly ecumenical and inter-denominational with real experts from many denominations on research staff. 5. Finally, permit people to ask questions and disagree with your conclusions. But I seriously doubt that any of the above would be allowed.

A couple of corrections: I meant Mary and John Sommerville. Second, I was told that the person we are talking about is not Craig, but a member of CFF who has a goatee and wild unkeept, thin hair with a pudgy face. John Paul spoke to this person privately Friday night outside the funeral home and did not seem upset.

To Ted, John Paul, Sara and Kevin, Rhoda, Karen and Jim, John and Ruth, and John Lynn: Thank you for allowing me the privilige of Attending the memorial service and seeing some old friends. No, Craig was not there though someone else with thinning hair did attend whom I did not recognize might have been mistaken for LCM. The service was mostly under CFF co-operation. Is Walter J. Cummings still alive and how is his health? Ted, I know this is not the appropiate thread, but where is Brian Bliss and Stevie kay these days? Thomas

Ham, I know who you mean, but is that Doctor Who of British Science Fiction, you know the Time Lord with K-9 alias Here Tick(heretic)?

I am organist/Director of Music at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Lincolnton, NC where we are getting ready to run our 7th Alpha Class (Nicky Gumbel DVD from Holy Trinity Anglican Church Brompton Road in Knightsbridge London,England) which is a vast improvement over Power For Abundant Living or its successor Class on The Way of Abundance and Power.Church's email is http://www.holycrosselca.org which also has a link to Alpha(www.alphausa.org) in care of Holy Trinity Episcopal Church in Manhattan,New York City.

Karl refers to TWLIL,UH, and BTS plus materials from John Judes(Lutheran pastor from MO.SYN.), J.L.Williams, Jack Sparks, Ronald Enroth, and Douglass Morton(former PFAL grad). He gives answers to Elena Scott Whitesides'book The Way:Living in Love discussed on another thread by WordWolf.

Maybe next year we can have ROA at Red Rocks in Colorado where John Tesh had his concert. So Welcome to the Rock of Ages 2006, it's good to be home again(?). Your'e my kids, oops got possed by the devil spirit of Wierwille. Sorry about Rosie. Would you beleve it or not?

Dear Ham, Uncle Hairy, and WW, check out Karl Kahler's book The Cult That Snapped which gives more info om TWLIL, UH, and BTS(Born to Serve) and how all 3 don't line up together. Also, I hve been informed that Jim Doop is writing his own book about his Way experinces. I am surprised that VPW didn't mention Dietrich Bonhoffer as one of his proffessors at Princeton. He did not teach at Gordon , but rather was guest preacher for chapel and optional lecture for only 1 day. Moody Bible Institute know suspects that Wierwille attended one day during open house sitting in class as visitor, also checking out their library and bookstore on Ruben Archer Torrey(2nd president of MBI after Moody himself). Also Wierwille's writtings seem to be influenced by Albert Benjamin Simpson, Smith Wigglesworth(who taught Stiles, Leonard, Kenyon, Oral Roberts, Hagin, and Copeland), Lester Sumrall, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, a young Robert Schuller,etc.

To John Paul, Sara Kathryn, Kevin, and others, In my private post to you, I offered my sympathies and said that my mother herself is in the last stages of Alzeimhers, so I know what you all must be going through. Pleases let me know of her funeral and I shall try to get there for it, that is if Rosie will allow us to attend. I promise there will be no protest, at least on my part. Agape, Thomas

John, I had emailed you on private post about Pressed Down's 3 CD's and that I was interested since I no longer have record player. Can you PM me about Joe or Ralph's email, phone number or snail/postal address? TLB

Oldies, I own all 10 books by Bullinger including job, Revelation, Ten Sermons on 2nd coming, Hebrews 11,plus the ones you mentioned; Ruben Archer Torrey = Power Filled Living(including difficulties of the Bible), and What the Bible Teaches; Alber Benjamin Simpson's The Holy Spirit/Power from on High, 1st Centuary Church in the Book of Acts; Lester Sumrall = Gifts and Ministies of the Holy Spirit,and Spirit/Soul/Body; not counting Kenyon's 2 books on Bible Courses, David Ireland,Sam Storms,Smith Wigglesworth, Dennis Bennett, Derek Prince, Nicky Gumbel, Neil Anderson, etc. just to name a few authors. Also Kenneths' Hagin and Copeland.

Bullinger was dead by the time Wierwille did PFAL, as was Ruben Archer Torrey, Smith Wigglesworth, Albert Benjamin Simpson. Cliffe, Starr Daily , Glenn Clark, Edward William Kenyon(Dead by 1947), Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, Robert Schuller, Kenneth Hagin, Jerome Edwin Stiles, Brian George(or is it Gregory?) Leonard did not have the time or money or knowledge to pursue it.

I also enjoyed the food at ROA. Looks like I have unintentionally derailed this thread. Where's Mike, MDVarden, and oldiesman when you want opions and discussion? Also seems the same occured with the CCM thread. Come on folks, give me some slack. Ham, Belle, Rascal, others, anyone around?

Where's Joe Fair, Ralph Graham, Brian Bliss, Dean Ellenwood, Cliff Adelman, Paolo Dionisio, Ted Ferrell and others? Come guys, let's hear your opinion about this. Also, what about taking Way Productions music and setting it to DVD format, Like Ted's The White House Across The Street? Why should VH1, MTV, CMT, and now Integrity/Hosanna Music be the only ones doing this?

Recently, I have been listening to Cd´s and records from Way Productions and comparing them to CCM CD´s and DVD´s from Integrity´s Worship Together Series, whose artists include Hillsongs, Graham Kendrick, Chris Tomlin, Delirious, Newsboys, Twilla Parris, Don Moen, Ron Kenoly, Matt Redman, John Tesh, Rebecca St. James, etc. How do you all feel about them? Are they the same quality as Pressed Down, Good Seed, Joyful Noise, etc? Comments are welcomed as this would have been the time in the 70´s we would be attending ROA(another thread along with Friend Tracker on Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Over). Just curious.

Welcome to the Rock of Ages 2005, It's good to be home again, right? heh! If only it had been music and seeing friends. BTW(pun meant), Both Cortright and CFF have ROA's in Michigan and Indiana. Also, I enjoyed Pressed Down's music and hope either Ralph or Joe have CD's for sale. Any Branded, Glad Tidings, Hope,Joyful Noise, or Agape CD's for sale? Contact me at bumgarnerthomas@yahoo.com New Email address.

John Shroyer is involved with Christian Family Fellowship in Indiana area.

Looks like John Brown of FL and his Way Family Tables got the boot as Limb/region leader, just because I informed him of John Hendricks death. Maybe Harve will now join one of the splinter groups like CFF or CR&F, or Walter Cummins. BTW, has anyone heard anything about Sara Kathryn Gigou or John Paul Wierwille recently? Just wondering. My sympathies to Dorethea Kipp Wierwille and her Alzeimhers condition, because my mother is in the last stages of that horrible disease.

HC, just checked your church in Dayton and noticed it offers Alpha/Questions of Life, a much better foundational class than Power for Abundant Living, which is similar to what Belle was saying in an earlier post on this thread. Our church uses this class with The United Methodist Church's Beginnings/Along The Way (no pun intended). And yes, we do the Holy Spirit day on Saturday with optional SIT. TLB

Yes, that's my real name. I was involved with The Way from August 1973 when Virginia"Ginger" Douglass(now Ott) spoke to me while I was watching the animated Star Trek cartoon in the Student lounge @ ECU where I was a freshman who invited me back to The Way Home there in Greenville,NC, but being a genlteman and proably a fool not to persue her sexually, I later learned about a coffeehouse which I erroneously thought was a dance club and got to meet Doug Emerson. I later took the PFAL class while a student at ASU in Boone, but was during the summer and held in Lenoir where I lived with my parents, my father being a Lutheran pastor. To make the story short, I went NCWOW in 1976 meeting Patricia Fetner from Sanford whom I had a major crush love-wise and might have in another situation married. After ROA 1979, I returned home only in less than a month had 10% collapsed left lung and was hospitalized for 3 days with no visitors, letters, or phone calls from anyone in TWI about my health (maybe revelation manifestations weren't working that day), yet many denominational clergy stopped by to visit me , who were my father's colleagues in Lenoir. In December that same year, I wrote a letter to the editor of The Charlotte Observer about an op-ed piece about TWI(which was negative), so I tried to defend them, but got severally reprimanded by the Limb leader saying HQ did not need this sought of attention, so I freely left, although in 1985 while living in Burlington, NC I was informed Of Victor Paul Wierwille's death(passing away/falling asleep). Only in the last year have I tried to find out what has happened and unfortunately, it has turned out to be a nightmare far worse than I ever knew. I returned to college, finishing up at Lenoir-Rhyne College for a BA in music in 1982, and more recently for a 2 year Sacred Music certificate program on liturgy, hymnody, etc. I presently am Organist/Director of Music/ Parish Cantor at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Lincolnton, NC where I have an adult chancel choir, accompany a youth/children's choir, conduct a 3 octave handbell/choirchime ensemble, play drumset/percussion/keyboard and autoharp for our Contemporary Praise Ensemble "Justified By Faith". Active in American Guild of Organists (local historian), Hymn Society of United States and Canada, and member of the Association of Lutheran Church Musicians. And as Paul Harvey would say, that's the rest of the story.

I would say read Karl Kahler's book The Cult that Snapped. Also The Wierwille family, starting with old Papa Ernest was disfunctional, He being an alcoholic and spouse/ child abuser to Emma, Ruben, Otto, Harry, Sevillia, Lydia, and Victor. The last having his father's bad temper, causing him to hide in the nearby woods out of fear(not a protestant St. Francis of Assisi in Whiteside's book).

Dear Mark, I happen to be a Lutheran who was involved with TWI from 1973-79, and returned to a more sane form of Christianity. Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic priest who wanted to reform a few mistakes and would have never left The Holy Church if Vatican 2 and the renunciations of condemnations(occuting in 1960's and recent October 31,2001) had happened in his lifetime. John Paul II no longer saw him as heretic or blasphemer. Thomas

Dear excathedra, You don't happen to have their address by any chance, do you? You can reply by private post at holycross@charter.net . Thomas PS see new email address in previous post.