Thomas Loy Bumgarner

I still think that Walter Cummins, as well as John Lynn, Ralph Dubofski, and Gary Curtis, plus Peter Wade would have been far better choices than Craig. They might have been opened to new research biblically speaking and really make TWI an ecumenical, interdenominational organization. At least it couldn't have been any worse, could it?

Dear Groucho, tried both website and snail mail, but got no response. Of course, this was back a few months ago. Had better response from Peter Wade. BTW, either of these 2 gentlemen would have been far better as President of TWI than toy-boy Loy. In case you are curious, there was a Lutheran pastor named Matthias Loy who in the early 1800's was from Ohio(believe it or not) and several people started naming their children after this pastor which explains how my grandfather Elvin Loy Bumgarner,Sr., my father, The Reverand Elvin Loy Bumgarner,Jr. and I got that name. But as for Craig being from OK and getting that name, well you know, it's a Mystery. If anyone knows Walter's phone number, just pm me. Thanks!

John the Baptist and the priests practiced what is called mitkvah, which is purification rite.

To Nato, Confused, Argus and other newbies, Welcome to GSC. I am the resident Lutheran poster to these forums. You might want to check out the thread on My Story forum. I am a church musician, took Pfal in '75, left TWI in Dec. 1979.

Belle, I hope that pic wasn't the weenie roast , or is that HQ staff SNS meeting? LOL

Argus, Welcome to GSC. Don't know about Martindale, but rumors have suggested that his former wife Donna Lombardi Martindale was bisexual/lesbian, especially with the present president Rosie Rivenbark.

Mark, you might be interested that Lenoir-Rhyne College has been for the last 12 years been sponsoring an Aquinas-Luther Conference on various topics. Although Luther did say "sola scriptura", today we proably would say scripture as primary souce, Lutheran confessions as secondary, church Fathers as tertiary level. Lutherans do have tradition, both historical and denominational.

Mark, I happen to be Lutheran, in fact ELCA(Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) which signed with the Holy Roman Catholic Church the recinding of the condemnations in October 31, 1999. I am an Evangelical, Catholic, Orthodox Christian who happens to be a member of a denomination whose leader was a German monk, priest, and mild reformer unlike Jean Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, or John Knox who were more radical. I am personally very High-Church liturgically(organ, sanctus bells, incense, icons, stations of the cross, etc) who relunctantly does Contemporary Christian Praise Music only to attract outsiders to the faith. So be careful about being anti-protestant since must Catholics would disagree with you, and I have many who are my friends as well as the Eastern Orthodox community. Thomas

When I attended Mrs. Wierwille's funeral, i didn't see Reverand Cummins whom I assumed would officiate at the service. Anyone know his whereabouts?

I guess everyone is at the wiennie roast, that is if they didn't get flooded out. When I first heard of it, I thought they were talking about VPW and LCM and their sexescapades, so my mistake. Jellystone Park, eh? Smarter than the average bear, boo-boo. Remember what MR. Ranger, I mean Hameroni said Yogi. So, Ham how was your coronation, I mean inaugaration ball? Now, can we get back to the topic at hand? PS, next time I'll bring the booze(schnapps, beer, wine and Drambuie/scotch/rum, etc). Still trying to find a single or divorced woman to cuddle with. If Ted can do it, then I still have a shot at it. We now return to our previous program already in progress.

We also teach Luther's small and large catechism to our teenagers and our adults study the Augsburg Confession and its sequel called the Apology/Defense(not a retraction but a further commentary). We also use Service book and Hymnal as well as Lutheran Book of Worship and With One Voice for traditional liturgy, while for Contemporary we use Worship Together and Songs for Worship DVD's.

I'm surprised that TWIHQ doesn't declare Wierwille road private property and kick out other farmers such as Popee by making it a gated community with security guards posted on both Ohio 29 entrance and Shelby County road entrance/exit. Go ahead and purchase/buy out everyone on both sides and build new facilities on the Highway 29 entrance. But I bet Shelby county residents won't take that too kindly and may sue TWI in county superior court or state court, and we know Rosie doesn't need this headache.

I mentioned earlier about Via Del Christo/VDC, the Lutheran version of El Cursillio de la Christiandad, as well as other expressions such as Teens Encounter Christ/TEC, Pathways, Emmaus Road, Tres Dies, Kairos, and Epiphany(last 2 are prison ministries) which includes 3 day retreat at a camp/conference center and is very busy with activities for Christian believers(not seekers/inquirers) and includes almost 20 talks, not lectures with again small group discussions on these "ideals" in the walk with Jesus. There is no brainwashing/programing minds to "groupthink", plent of food, 9 hours of sleep. However, this is not for everybody, but neither does it create cliches/factions within congregations(or shouldn't) of "Super Christians with all the answers" versus the ordinary believer. Instead, there is strong encouragement of the concept of the one body of Christ and each individual with their own gifts and talents bring diversity to the health of the church.

Alpha session 1: Christianity-Boring, untrue, and irrelevant? Christianity is public truth. If true for some, then true for all. If not true for anyone, then it isn't true for everyone. See Gospel of John 14:6. Objections and Misconceptions like What does Christianity have to do with life? Directions for a lost world. Hunger for meaning and purpose; First order questions of life- What am I doing on Earth? What is the point of life> Wher am I heading?Reality in a confused world, Does it matter what we believe? Truth understood and experienced. Life in a dark world-Created in God's image, fallen in sin, forgiven in Christ. men and women were created to live in arelationship with God. Leo Tolstoy was left asking"Well fine, so what?"to which he had no answers. Life without a relationship with God is like a television without an atenna. I used to think I was a nice person because didn't rob banks or murder people. Christ died toremove our guilt and to set us free. He died instead of us. Beginings session 1: John 3:1-16.So, is this all there is? If your house were on fire and after saving your family and pets, you had only time to rescue one item, what would it be? A lot of people sum up their basic approach to life by using bumper stickers they place on their cars: Normal people worry me, my karma just ran over your dogma, Money isn't everything but it sure keeps the kids in touch, compost happens, it is as bad as you think and they are out to get you. ordering"sea monkeys", Can you remeber a significant time of yearning to experince God? Where were you? How did you respond? Did you try to forget it? Did you feel unnerved? Did you embrace it? Do you now have a yearning to know more about God? I won't put up the other sessions, but hope this gives you a taste for it. Thomas

Raf, are those your relatives? As for Mike, it's time for him to take his medication for hallucination and paranoia. Anyone who by revelation says Jesus is coming back with PFAL and other Wierwillean books in his hands is not mentally sound. Where are the attendants with the strait jackets and tranqualizer darts?

I'll give some quotes later on from Alpha and Beginnings, but am in a hurry.

I want to go back about Wierwille preaching to the trees, squirels, rocks and so forth. My a Protestant version of St. Francis of Assissi. Too bad he didn't live according to the prayer associated with Francis. As the Church lady character on Saturday Night Live(Dana Carvey) would say" Isn't that special? Could it be Satan?'.

Mike, you as well as Allan and Oldies/Phil Spector(shouldn't use your real name when posting if using an alias) are like a broken record/scratched CD. If Wierwille had footnoted/endnoted and provided a bibliography on PFAL, RTHST, ADAN like he did for JCNG, JCOP, and JCOPS, we would not be having this discussion. Check out my post on Alpha and similar classes now being offered by mainline denominations and compare them to PFAL and WAP. And don't sulk and act like spoiled 2 year olds. You are suppose to be Adults and mature, not whiny brats not wanting to share your toys. Sorry if that hurts, but its tough love.

For more info, click on my church's website at www.holycrosselca.org about Alpha and also to see my pics of me and various musical groups. Thomas

Belle, I can understand your hestitancy, but these classes are free of cost, you can drop out if you want, and you take them on your on time schedule, no pressure from clergy or congregation. Pastor Foss is at Prince of Peace Lutheran Church, ELCA in Burnsville, MN. Their praise ensemble(I hate the term band) is Changing Church Forum and they have their own bookstore called Genesis. All these classes encourage small Bible Study groups called cells, which are not competitive but are part a larger congregation/parish, not independent house churches/home fellowships like the former twigs. But take your time and move at your own pace. Also talk with your pastor about your experiences or seek counseling with a qualified expert dealing with cults. God really bless you and others like Rascal, Shelly, etc. Agape, Thomas

Belle, while I agree with Rick Warren's overall message, its too much Southern Baptist for me. I also have been involved with the Lutheran version of Cursillio called Las Via del Christo(The Way of Christ) and have read Lutheran pastor Michael Foss of Burnsville,MN book called PowerSurge: 6 Disciplines of the Christian Life which is prayer, public worship, daily reading of Scripture, Serving(as in John Wimber's Servant Evangelism), Relationships(family, church including other denominations, and seekers/searchers/inquirers/ outsiders), and giving of money, time and talents as stewards. Overall, I have enjoyed everything because of the relaxed atmosphere and no pressure. You can email to www.alphausa.org or www.alpha.org to find the nearest class. In fact, classes are running in Lima, Sydney, and St. Mary's, all within TWI's area. LOL.

One more thing, after each video session we meet in small groups of 5-10 people to discuss the material and to ask questions, something we were never allowed in Power For Abundant Living. Wierwille must have thought it would challenge him and obviously forbade it, always saying wait until the end of the class. But how are we to grow in the Christian faith if we can't ask questions?

(cont.)What about the church/Why should I join any group that will have me as amember?; and finally, How can I make the most of my life/Lovefeast. Other classes we have run include 40 Days of Purpose(Rick Warren), Beta based on Neil T. Anderson's Victory over the Darkness, and the Bondage Breakers=sessions include Good News; New identity in Christ; Living by Faith; Reshaping our worldview; Living by the Spirit; Renewing the mind; Battle for the mind; Emotional freedom; Forgiving from the heart; Steps to freedom in Christ; Godly relationships; Goals and desires; and finally, Living on the right path. Our advanced class is based on British and United Methodist materials combined called Essential Bible Truth Treasury/Christian Believer(supplemented by Companions in Christ books)= Believing/Faith; Revelation/Scripture/The Bible(main sections, inspiration, interpretation, application, central theme, contents);God as trinity, creator, being/ personal, character/providence, fatherhood/parent, revelation; Humanity-our uniqueness/made in God's image, our diversity, rebellion and fall, sinful condition/condemnation, covenant and election, quest and dilemna, enemies, grace, salvation/God's plan for humanity, need of salvation, The Way, acceptance;Jesus Christ-Incarnation/human and divine, Savior, main events in the gospels, aspects of his ministry, various names, atonement, Lord, triumphant resurrection/ascension; Holy Spirit-God present, person, names and descriptions, empowering, his work, activity in Christians, fruit, and gifts;God's messengers-angels, patriarchs,priests, prophets, apostles, and evangelists; Church-Body of Christ/God's called out people, characteristics, main description, relationship to Christ, authority and mission, Sacraments/worship, Ministry and order; Christian Life described, Bible, Prayer, witness, world; Sanctification, Romans; Christian hope; return of Christ; Judgement; Resurrection of the body; Eternal Life; New World oder;Believing and Living.

Alpha stands for:A=Anyone is welcomed who is interested in the basics of Christianity, wherther life-long believer brushing up on the doctrines, or seekers/searchers/inquirers; L=Learning and laughter; P=Pizza, pasta, pie, and people; H=Healing, hospitality, humility, and humor; and A=ask any questions on Christianity. It was developed by The Reverand Nicholas(Nicky) Gumbel, an Anglican priest of the Church of England. The video class is 15 sessions long, with 12 being every Sunday evening and 3 on one Saturday on the Holy Spirit. The Class is free to participants(no green card or contract is signed) with meals and free chidcare/nursery, since the church budgets for it. Gumbel also has written a book based on Alpha called Questions of Life. Other classes/books are Life Worth Living(based on Phillipians), Challenging Lifestyles(based on Sermon of the Mount from Matthew), Heart of Revival(based on Issaiah), 7 Searching Issues(Human Suffering, Other religions, sex, the Trinity), and a devotional called 30 Days(individual Bible Studies). Beginnings is the United Methodist answer to Alpha which is 12 sessions, but does not include the Holy Spirit discussions. Video presenter is The Reverand Robert(Rob) Weber, pastor at Grace Community UMC in Shreveport,LA. The companion book is called(and I am not kidding) Along The Way by United Methodist pastors, Thomas Anderson(Andy) Langford and Mark Ralls. Sessions include: Christianity, is it boring, myth, and irrevelant/Is this all ther is?; Who is Jesus and why should I care?; Why did Jesus die/Why am I not where I want to be?; How can I be sure of my Faith/What happens when I die?; Why and how should I read the Bible/How does God speak to me?; Why and how do I pray/how do I speak to God?; How does God guide us/Can I trust God?; Who is the Holy Spirit?; What does the Holy spirit do?; How can I be filled with the Holy Spirit(optional SIT)?; How can I resist evil/If I don't feel lost, why do I need to be found?; Why and how should I tell others/Can I start again?; Does God heal today/How can I make a life and not just a living?;

Galen, I have been to Maine. I enjoyed Bar Harbor and the coastal region. Hope to get back up there next summer. Don't get snowbounded there. Thomas