Thomas Loy Bumgarner

Stevo and Jeast, Welcome! Would you like some fried chicken and fries?

John Schoenheit did attend a theological seminary in Charlotte(Garrett?), NC to receive a Master's degree(whether in Arts, Theology, or Divinity not sure).

Ham and Doojable, see posts 60 and 63 from me about questions you are asking.

I can't believe that it has been just over 3 years since I joined The (ex) Way List on Yahoo and Grease Spot Cafe. Still consider this website as my answer to AA/Al-ANON/NA. Hi, my name is Thomas and I am a former recovering TWI addict. (Everyone else says)"hi, Thomas! Welcome to GSC"

OM, listen to Ralph Duboffsky's interview with Paw and tell me with a straight face that no one in TWI was held against their will. Otherwise, you and Mike need help. This is not about VPW's doctrine as it is about behavior. Tell me, would you have followed Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Warren Jeffers? Only difference was no one tried to publicly hold Wierwille, Martindale or Geer accountable. Don't give me that $#!+ about the Ministry be not blamed(what a cop out). What's wrong, are the 3 of you living in Never-Never land(they run to their mommies and cry/bawling "Wah! Mr. Bumgarner is spiritually mocking us. Make him stop).I only pity you and your immaturity(including other VPW supporters/defenders). What ever happened to the(real)truth needs no defense? GSC has tried to be a healing place like AA or NA, but you have got to admit that you have a problem, otherwise you will be in bondage for the rest of your life.(I can hear you say, Frak you, so what? It's my life and if I decide one day to kill myself, well up yours). Sorry to be blunt but that;s real tough love OM, Rocky, Mike, WD, and other lurking former posters.

Let's be honest, Mike and Oldiesman are still brainwashed, White Dove- not certain. Maybe they are post-stress shock syndrone. It's not hate, it's pity. The 3 need psychiatric help quickly.

Other chapters from section 2: Teaching includes the dancing fairy himself(LCM) on players and coaches for God(AKA Spirit{s} of the Athletes debacle); The family-Foundation of Education=Robert Moynihan/Moneyhands; Pastoral Heart of the Teacher-R@$s Tr@cy; Chastening of the Lord- Malvin George; Christianity in America(very poorly researched) by Ton Jenk*^$0n; Competent Communicator of God's Word(you're right, dear ole Rosie herself ); and JAL on God's Glory. Final section on Fellowship(bwahahee): Bob W on Biblical significance on nunber 40(a la Bullinger); Principles on Church Administration and the Successful Christian-RD; Receive, retain, release/Blossoming of Word-Centered Culture=ESW; Fine Arts in "Christian Culture"- B#+h L0*&^%; God's Love and the healing Arts(half way decent article)-Dr. Frederick W.; 7 Redemptive names of God(Plagerised from Ruben Archer Torrey, Kenyon, and Bullinger)- Vinny the Fiin; and concluding the book David Cr@l#y's Tribute to Lightbearers. These "Festschrifts" are not in themselves unusual. Church Musician Carl Schalk was recently honored by articles compiled for his retirement from Concordia University in River Forest, IL. However in this later case, there were academics who knew Sacred Music and the appreciation of the Lutheran tradition. No comparison, Schalk' contributions to Lutheran Church Music far exceeds any crap Wierwille ever did.

WD, obviously Dooj doesn't have the book in question and never owned one. Dooj, the book was to honor VPW upon his retirement. It was divided into 3 major sections: Research, Teaching, and Fellowship. Walter's contribution was entitled A Reformation in Studies of Biblical Truths. Walter's thesis was that TWI was a 2nd Reformation, implying(but not stating specificly) that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Melancthon, Cranmer, Knox, and of later times the Wesley brothers had only a small portion of truth, but Wierwille got it all correct doctrinally by scientific research. Cummins says that textual criticisms tries to work from a secular understanding and forces a different interpretation(talk about the kettle calling the pot black). Actually Walter was a better researcher than VPW, but was into fundamentalism. White Dove is correct that WJC quotes from other commentators, but not always in correct context. Where is Bill O'Reily with the "No Spin Zone"? Guess John Juddes will have to do. Other chapters are Lonell Johnson's Literary Style of Paul; Holy Spirit and Eastern Customs in Matthew 3:11 and 12 by Bo Reahard; Contributions of Aramaic by Bernita Jess; John Crouch-Figures of Speech; Earl Burton-Scope and Structure of 2nd Peter; and Gary Curtis' PFAL in other languages.

Loved Koko the clown video. Reminds me of Wierwille teaching of Christian Family and Sex, and that's not milk in that cup, it's DRAMBRIUE. I thought the monkey was LCM

The irony is that both websites were mentioned here at the bottom of this forum as advertisements just below Ham's response.

In the 1st edition the bibliography was included, but omited in the 2nd edition. Some of the same resources were used in John Schoenheit's book One God and One Lord from Christian Education Services/Spirit and Truth Fellowship but with some additional material.

Waysider and T-bone, careful or this will end up in the Just being Silly forum or the basement for The Soap Opera Returneth. Sounds like something from Whose Line is it Anyway?(as the great Hollywood director from Canada Colin Mocherie would say "crap")

John Tesh is proably responsible for Contemporary Praise Music being on TV with his Worship at Red Rocks concert that was videoed for PBS. A lot of churches use DVD's and Cd's from Worship Together series from Integrity Music, and WOW Worship(no, not Word over the World) from Maranatha/Integrity/Vineyards. Now if Selah, Pressed Down, Good Seed, and Joyful Noise had done this back in the 70's before MTV and V-H1 had even poped up. Gee, where was VPW and his revelation manifestations? Thinking of America Awakes album and Ted Ferrell's song The White House Across the Street. Anyway enjoyed the YouTube videos.

The irony is that this camp is in DEVIL'S Lake, in South Dakota, and area errily reminds me of a section of central/NW Ohio(New Knoxville/New Bremen/St. Mary's/Wapokeneta/Sidney/Minster). Does make you wonder, although the crosses would never be seen on TWI property.

In addition to Jehovah's Witnesses(shouldn't it be Yahweh's Witnesses?) and Leonard, George Lamsa's Nestorian background(and possible Islamic conversion) are strong influences. Also include Meggido Missions(now called Ministires), Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, Unitarian/Universalist, Christian Science, Unity School of Christianity, Scientology, Later Day Saints/Mormons. John Schoenheit attempts to improve on Jesus Christ is not God/ JC Our Passover/JC Our Promised Seed in Spirit and Truth Fellowship's book One God and One Lord(Christian Education Services). Whether he and John Lynn suceed or not is up for debate. Let's say for me the jury is still out(don't mean to be a waffler sitting on the fence), but acknowledge that both positions just might be equally true or to use a Christian concept of paradox. But hey, your mileage might vary greatly.

Brushstroke(calling you that because Oldiesman's real name is also Phil), According to Power For Abundant Living and the revision that TWi and it's splinter groups use, the Koinne greek word Gnosis/ginosko means spiritual wisdom that all "true Christians" are required to have to battle Satan or the devil will literally murder all humanity, because Adam and Eve transferred authority God had given them to Lucifer when they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, So Satan is master and owner of the universe, and God isn't going to sue Satan nor humanity for breaking/breaching contract law by "assasinating/murdering " the Devil. So God created another perfect human being(sperm and ova[not Mary's]) to bring about Jesus the Messiah/Christ, who can never be God in human flesh. Also, TWI thought Lewis spoke $#*! and didn't understand "true" Christianity(mentally insane or devil/demon possesed). Of course Wierwille and Martindale were stupid. VPW should have known better but he ended up rejecting his seminary theological training calling it Satanic crap, throwing away those books to be burned in local incinerator/buried as trash and garbage(Good riddance, he would have said) Check out the wikipedia article on him. You may also want to check out Pastor John Juddes, a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastor, who has written several articles on The Way International. His congregation is Messiah Lutheran in CA.

Brushstroke, don't get a heartstoke. If you can figure this all out, you will be light years beyond where we were in the 70's. Think of VPW as a real version of Elmer Gantry(movie stared Burt Lancaster and Shirley Jones). TWI did not quite rise to Jim Jones or David Koresh(although many thought LCM was paranoid and ready for the nut house(has nothing to do with Mr. Ham, Our Squirrel of God for all time. "The word of Ham is the will of the Squuirel")

Brushstroke, great conversation. 2 quick points that OM might challenge you: Lord's Prayer is for Jews only, not Christians(despite evidence that it was in liturgical use by 60AD), and 2nd theologians/church fathers are giving a personal spin zone and bloviating(blowing hot air and nonsense) which is diametrically opposite scripture and should not be trusted(i.e. Scripture alone and no individual comment/"idios" ones own spinzone for idiots). Of course, I reject such sentiments. I am surprised that you haven't met our other PFAL obsessed person Mike(who believes that Jesus will appear with all of Wierwille's books, carrying them like Moses with the 10 commandments).

I found out on this or the other thread that Brushstroke was originally Southern Baptist before he joined the Eastern Orthodox Church(he doesn't say if his parents were or are Baptist or if they are Orthodox). If that is the case, then he could easily get caughth up into Stephanie's mindset and her parents' with TWI. I had assumed that Phil had always been Orthodox since birth, which begs the question if his parents were originally Baptist, why did they join the Greek Orthodox Church? Just curious.

Brushstroke/Phil, it is interesting that the title of the "Blue" book is based on the children's hymn Jesus Loves Me(proably not sung in the Greek or Russian Orthodox church ), this I know for the Bible tells me so. If TWI were really honest it would say"Doctor Wierwille loves me this I know ,for he tells me that is so" All the women to him belong for they are weak but he 's too strong. Yes, docvic loves me(repeat 2 more times), for all the lies he told. Gawsh, you is my kids. Whoops, the devil spirit named legion tried to posses me. Where's Taps/Ghost Hunters when you need them? To any females who just felt insulted , please for give me, for I know not what I do. My humble apologies. My satire was too painful, just got caugth(where's the dictionary when you need one?) up in the morose humor.

Bride, I believe that the Koine Greek word "kai" can also be translated as "and" "yet" and "even" as well as "also", if my memory is correct.

Nothing really matters to me. Should have been the theme song of our time in TWI. Moma mia, Galeleo. :blink:

2 things just went through my mind :the cartoon "Cow and Chicken" with the devil having no pants(Cartoon Network), and why am I suddenly feeling hungry?

Brushstroke/Phil, sorry to disapoint you but your girlfriend is living with her parents(not alone in an apartment which might have made it easier) and proably will not allow you to take her to a Greek Orthodox church(heretics according to TWI), but will strongly suggest that you attend home (formerly Twig) fellowship and will "love-bomb" you as pretenious friendly people who care about you. Beware as 1st Peter says"The Devil roams as a roaring lion, seeking to devour you". Ask S**** if she uses other translations and paraphrases besides King James Version regularly. I would suggest New Revised Standard Version, New International Version, English Standard Version, New Living Translation, New Centuary Version, or Contemporary English Version. Be careful however, for some will use these to prove their points, along with Charles Williams, Ronald Knox, James Moffat, Robert Young, and Ethelbert Bullinger's Companion Bible(KJV with explanatory notes and almost 200 appendices). BTW, I am Lutheran and admire Orthodox music and icons.

While Oldies man is away, I'll play "devil's advocate" Yes wierwille would have said that all the apostles "Tripped out", that Stephen should have felt the stones like styrofoam and caused him no harm, and then beat the hell into the Jewish religious leaders, thus mudering those for antaganizing the Almighty and Jesus' followers; that Peter and Paul, James and others should still be alive today with no illness, a psedo-garden of Eden, as if Satan had been assasinated. Now, realise I don't subscribe to this anymore, but Law of believing makes God our personal genie whom we can put in a wall safe/bank vault/"lock-box" to manipulate or punish if He doesn't fulfill his promises. Are we so arrogant as to sue God for breach of contract and go to US Supreme Court because Yahweh failed to live up to his part of the bargain? I love OM, Mike, WD, and others but sorry, guys , you are wrong in this case. We will now receive the offering :D :lol: :B) .