Thomas Loy Bumgarner

Tims Ford State Park is west of Chattanoga, TN near Winchester and Lynchburg, which are SE of Nashville/Brentwood near I-24. If I leave Hickory about 7 or 8 am, it should take me about 6-7 hours(whether I take I-40 and I-75, or US 64 and 74 to TN). Now if it were closer to Knoxville area or the Tri-City area(Johnson City/Kingsport, Bristol), I would say definitely count me in.

Where is Tims Ford located? Eastern Tenn? What city/cities is it near? If it is less than 4-6 hours driving distance, then yes. Don't have a tent or camper. Is there a motel nearby?

Not sure if Mister Ham will appreciate that

You Texans know nothing about BBQ. Here in the south it's pork(Squeal oink). I asked Rascal about our Wieenie Roast for this year. Possibly 1st weekend in October looks great-not too hot nor too cold. So hot dogs, hamburgers, maybe steaks, pork Barbeque, lemonade, sweet ice tea, and optional beer.

Spiders? LOL! Hope KG isn't coming to your place . Trying to work with Rascal about our Weenie roast down here in da south. TS, maybe smoke a few crawdads like Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies?

Rascal, I was thinking possibly early October when leaves are at peak, not too hot and not too cold. Noticed that Texas and New England were doing their thing. Just haven't heard anything this year. Can make it for Friday and Saturday but need to be back in Hickory to play for Holy Cross' 2 services on Sunday morning. And let's make it pork BBQ (real barbeque), nothing against beef brisket or clambakes/lobster but BBQ, hot dogs and hamburgers with lemonade and sweet ice tea, beer optional. Any one else interested?

Well Texas and New England are doing their thing, so what about the Southeast? Last year suggested something either in Eastern Tenn., in the Carolinas, VA, or GA. Anything come of it for this year, i.e. Weenie Roast 2008?

If I had not gone to ECU during the energy crisis, and gone straight to ASU in Boone, proably would never have gotten involved with TWI. Most likely would have gotten both a bachelor's and master's degrees in both percussion and organ, gotten married 30 years ago and had 3 kids, been organist at a large local Lutheran Church, and wouldn't have given a damn about Biblical Research and accuracy, and been much happier with my life.

definitely Elmer Gantry for VPW. As for LCM, Jim Jones and/or David Koresh.

Question still is if Wierwille was trinitarian in June 1956(obviously still E&R on payroll) and by April of 1959 rejects it(fired or resigned under pressure from newly formed UCC), what changed his and early TWI's mind? or have I answered my own question(Leonard and Lamsa maybe)?

Geisha, you never said what denomination or "church" you belonged. Some would say false doctrine is first step in the term cult/sect/heresy, followed by immoral behavior/attitude(rape, incest, monetary fraud, vocal threatenings, physical violence, murder) done by a "charismatic" leader. If Wierwille had been in his 20's, 30's as President of TWI, and definitely Martindale ending up doing the last 2 attitudes in front of others as intimidation by bullies, would they or Geer murdered the entire staff like Jones or Koresh but escaped by not commiting suicide? BTW, what has stopped your church and pastor from not repeating many of the same attitudes. As for John Juddes, I pm'ed him reminding that TWI and it's off-shoots aren't the only Unitarians. Check out my response on the Trinity discussion in this same doctrinal forum.

So in June 1956, Wierwille believed in the trinity and deity of Jesus Christ, but by April of 1959 both are rejected. Interesting, was it Lamsa and Leonard that influenced this, and why did many people associated with TWI receive such shock about JCING when it came out in 1975? Was this one of Wierwille's secrets that he hinted to Elena Scott Whiteside in TW:LIL?

Down in the basement is a discussion on this topic. I suspect that in the early 1950's Wierwille started seriously questioning the trinity, due to Lamsa and Leonard's viewpoints, but officially became public teaching with JCING. Might have suggested he should have titled it "Just exactly who is Jesus Christ?" but VPW loved causing controversary to spite people.

My earlier posts should not be construed that I reject the trinity, but that I was trying to explain how I understood Wierwiile's and Schoenheit's reasoning. Other Unitarians are Unitarian Universalist, Christian Science, Unity School, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witness, Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, Worldwide Church of God(Armstrong), in addition to TWI, S&TF,CFFM,C&RF,COF,etc.

TWI and S&TF seem to say that Jesus is what all human beings would have been had there been no sin(Adam is a son of God, not God in human flesh). John Schoenheit in One God, One Lord treats church history better than Wierwille. What JS misses is Kurios(Kyrie) does not simply mean master/lord but is used for a being who is deity. Most Unitarians accept Jesus having "divinity" but not "deity", that is "holy spirit" as a thing or it like a computer having electricity rumming through it(not counting laptops with batteries only) but until you turn it on, click the mouse to the internet/world wide web to talk to God(who Is Holy and Spirit, and is Father/Parent). Interesting that the Ebionites believed Jesus was not god but Joseph's biological son/ or a Roman Centurion who raped Mary impregnating her, started by Paul of Samosota. VPW and JS believed Jesus was not God(stuck in heaven and CS Lewis was nuts), nor Michael nor Gabriel, nor sinful human being, but true perfect human(not capable of sin and had no free will or by superstrength mind over matter chose not to sin), therefore He is not like us at all but human alien(Doctor Who maybe?) created within Mary's womb, not unlike Adam's creation. No fall or sin, Adam, Eve and all of us perfect with out sin just like Jesus. Still searching and delibtating the issue. ps, Wierwille thought Lewis' arguement stupid and not convincing because of Son of God never equals God the Son or God disguised in human flesh without perverting God's character of holiness, making Yaweh sinful like all of us.

number 1, I apologized to Rocky for including him about this topic. 2. Had White Dove limited his posts to music, he would not now be on my ignore and block options. 3. For a short time Oldiesman showed some humor and seemed human, but showed his true colors. 4. Mike hasn't been on this in a while. 5. I publicly apologised for my behavior and regret that I acted infantile. Besides I shudder that I would act like Craig or Chris, or even VPW like spoiled little brats who neede a good spanking for their behavior/attitude. BTW, Rocky presently is not on blocked or ignore, and yes I went back and read his posts which supports his opposing Wierwille.

LOL! Thought this was about Pressed Down, Shaken Together, Rolling Over and then realized it said PTSD, not PDSTRO. My mistake .

To Janis Lang aka Lucy Van Pelt: Honey, you along with Oldiesman(Phil), Rocky, White Dove, Mike are the ones suffering from Bi-Polar/mania depressed and are not racing reality. I am sorry that your brother raped you and that you blame your parents for not protecting you nor having your brother arrested and treated as an adult pedophile(even if he was younger than 18) sent to criminal court and charged, yet you claim your father would have had the Ohio and Federal Government press charges against Wierwille, Martindale, and Geer(plus Donna and Rosie) had VPW even laid hands on you(maybe even murder them). Even asking God to murder your brother is sick and evil. Yet you claim to have eventually forgiven him. Janis, if you do not publicly ask Dot, Rascal, Excathedra here in this forum to forgive your outburst, you will be enjoying my ignore list.As for Bumpy/Grumpy from Paris/Algeria, you never were offensive to me.

Both John's seem to imply that Bullinger had it mostly correct despite being Trinitarian. JL includes differences from TWI in a link summarizing them with their books and CD's and DVD's teaching series. Both apologize for the sexual abuse that occured but Karen's attitude is not mentioned. In a private post to him, JL said that recent British teaching videos(ALPHA, Open Home/Open Bible, Reality) and materials from the United Methodist(Beginings, Christian Believer) and Saddleback's Foundations 101 are an improvement over what has been taught but still off on the Trinity and Jesus Christ being God disguised in human flesh. He , JS, KG and others from Spirit and Truth, Christian Family, Christian Outreach, Christian Research, and other splinter groups claim it was the filmed PFAL class that forced the denominations to counter it in the late 90's and early 21st Centuary with their "spin". They like the humor and laughter and the personal touch, but still claim that the Church of England, UMC, ELCA, Willow Creek, Lakewood Baptist(Joel Osteen), Saddleback,etc. still don't get it(that is "The Truth"). So much for both John's, Kevin, Wayne, Rochelle and the others. At least they now consider us as the ignorant/separated brethern in the Body of Christ and "tolerate/love" us and no longer want us dead(just misguided like tiny toddlers).ps KG refers to Mr. Gigou, not MS. Grasser.

In addition to www.classmates.com, I also belong to www.reunion.com and www.facebook.com , the later gives far more information and includes my home address, phone number, and church's website where you can access my photos under staff and music ministries.

Mark, what you mentioned is taught by Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, and Methodism but in different words. Brushstroke, wierwille took this teaching from Bullinger. Have you and Steph met face to face yet? Stay cool> In the words of DWBH(sorry if I just plagerized)-Peace.

Kris, thanks. Your book like Karl Kahler's will expose the hidden and hideous truth about The Way International. BTW besides Williams and John Juddes, there were other books about TWI written in late 70's, but not to the level known being told.

Arizona, are you going to be another VPW defender that I am going to have to place ignore? Interesting, if Wierwille had been homosexual pedophile and rapist to Craig, Chris, Mike, OM,WD, Jonitham, and Arizona, and they were complaing about abuse here on Greasespot, and the women had scorned them saying"But he taught the Word perfectly, not known since Jesus, Peter, and Paul" accusing them of lying and defamation of the Man of God, Would they be furious for no one believing them? Just wanted to put them in Kris' shoes and feel the heat and rejection.

RG, this was the Toronto Blessing back in mid-90's from one of John Wimber's Vineyard churches and has been also reported in Texas and Florida revivals(not one of the late John Wimber's best moments in Neo-Pentecostalism/Charismatic movement.).

Java, hope you find a church you can feeel comfortable with. BTW, my church has 2 different worship services(I am Lutheran). The 9 am service is contemporary using powerpoint on large TV screens using Casting Crowns, Hillsongs, Newsboys, etc. The 11am is traditional liturgy and uses 4 hardback hymnals-1958 Service Book and Hymnal, 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship, 1999 This Far By Faith(African American), 2006 Evangelical Lutheran Worship(700 hymns), and 2 paperback supplements-Hymnal supplement 1991, and 1995 With One Voice(both are thin having only 200-300 hymns/songs). The later service includes European, North American, African, Asian, and Latino/Carribean= blended styles. My congregation tries to show hospitality to both members and visitors, and invites to them to small group "cells" for video classes like ALPHA and Beginings for new people(first is from Great Britain and 2nd is from Methodist), with follow-up video classes(free food, free childcare, free books- unlike Pilaf by VD Wierdwolf). We now return your Television sets/computers to you until the next episode of the Outer Limits(or was that the TWIlite Zoning)