Seth R.

Thanks George this site looks like it has allot of potential. As some have pointed out there's not much in the way of detailed information. However I think I have the gist of the site, it's intended to raise questions about these things not answer them. The question can be more powerful then the answer sometimes. Seth

(Typo on the title I meant: Why I became an Atheist (or Pantheist), or How I learned to stop being superstitious and learned to love rationality) Hi, I have been reflecting allot over the past week, I often do that when I ride out of a bipolar episode, which happens around the changes in season. After leaving TWI I was in a state of emotional decay, and mixed up beliefs, severe resentment and fear. I was plagued by the implanted phobias that I had from teachings in twig meetings, branch and limb meetings, PFAL foundational intermediate and advanced. More implants from ROA's and WOW year, as well as Advanced Class specials and the Defeating the adversary class. I had a load of emotional mental baggage that told me things like the adversary is out to get you, if you stay outside the fellowship of TWI. (sidebar, you think VPW was a closet Tolkien fan? Maybe he modeled the devil after Sauran and he was Aragorn, but I digress.) One Class to rule them all, one class to find them, one class to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. So after being out for some years I began to explore other things, I learned very quickly about the methods of cult leaders. After understanding the methods I realized that anything and I mean ANYTHING that brings people together can become an abusive cult. I began expanding my mind, about quantum physics, and looked into Buddhism, I questioned everything, and if I could not find a suitable answer I decided that I didn't have to believe it or follow it. I began to awaken, I began to start seeing the world as it truly is, not what I wish it was, or even what people told me it was. I began to become an independent thinker a free thinker, someone who was open to all possibilities even the ones I previously investigated. I was becoming ready to grow beyond outmoded belief systems and accept life as it unfolds to me. In this process I had to re-educate myself, and as new ideas came up I had to research those and see what it meant, because I had been flying so long on what I thought was inspiration I didn't know what it meant to have a rational thought or take a rational action. The word Psychosis came up, and so I had to look it up and understand it and really know what it means to me and if when I use the term I'm using it correctly, like when I used to use the word moron I didn't realize that it means someone who is the mental age of 7 - 12. So calling an adult a moron is derogatory where if I called a 5 year old a moron it's really a complement. So what does psychosis mean, this is from the WikiPedia: "Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality." People suffering from it are said to be psychotic. People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and disorganized thinking. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behaviour, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the activities of daily living." I was surprised to realize that this defined my mental states from time to time in TWI, and more or less it was re-enforced by the various fellowships and classes and teachings written and oral. I felt caught between Scylla and Charybdis, so I did what always seemed to work for me, simplify, if it was taking to much of my mind away I had to decide to accept it or chuck it. The first thing to go was TWI's teachings, I said if it isn't absolutely crystal clear then I don't need it, and I would say everything I ever read or was taught from TWI raised more questions then it answered. Next to go was organized religion, then the bible. I practiced a primitive form of spirituality for a while that included prayer and meditation, and reading new age stuff, but soon after I chucked it and god. I was at a Christian retreat hosted by St. Joseph of the woods in Malvern Pa. beautiful place, wonderful dorms and people, great food. But I had a very disturbing experience there, the retreat master did something so hypocritical and wrong in front of a couple hundred men amd the majority just shrugged off that at that point I was done, finished. With spiritual leaders like this who needs evil people? With a God so uninterested in the world it supposedly created, who needs a Devil? One Class to rule them all, one class to find them, one class to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. Seth

Oh, I dialed that number and it said, "We're sorry but your call coould not be completed as dialed, please check the number and dial again." I think your Husband forgot to pay his phone bill. I love it, you said "God doesn't occupy time and space..." OK, then I guess that qualifies as meaning God doesn't exist. LOL, I know that's not what you meant but I couldn't resist. Seth

Dot that was awesome. Seth

I was wondering if someone could get a grant to do a double-blind independent study to find out if it's really a law, or just a lot of wishful thinking. As it seems to me it's more of a poetic thing then a constant reality. For instance, the law of gravity says simply what goes up must come down, period. Regardless of the observer, or the circumstance gravity is all pervasive on this planet, and it doesn't have any intelligence behind it. What I mean about it not having any intelligence behind it, is to say it doesn't stop working because it's not being used correctly or the object isn't the right one. The Law of Gravity is a law because it is a causal agent, there is no need to initiate or activate gravity in order to get it to work. For instance if I push a watermelon out of a window of a 3 story building is that the reason why it fell and hit the ground? No, just because I pushed the watermelon out the window isn't enough to "make" it fall, for that I need gravity. Gravity is such a universal concept that dropping a melon out of a window is synonymous with causing it to fall, wrong. Gravity causes it to fall, I just helped put the melon in the right situation, gravity did the rest. So I question the concept of "Believing" having a status as a law, for the most part believing as a law is anecdotal. Something along the lines of "I prayed for this or that and I got one of the things but it took a while, I really had to work on it though." or "I prayed for 3 things and I got 2, I guess my believing wasn't strong enough to get it." I doubt you'll hear a person say "I must be doing something wrong , because my gravity isn't as strong as it should be." If Believing was law *every time* I use it, it should produce results, period! Gravity always produces results, period. Thanks for letting me rant, Seth

Brideofjc said: Thanks for intimating that I am possessed. Seth

Curious how old do you believe the Earth is? Seth

Who? LOL I couldn't resist. Seth

OK I wasn't going to reply to this but I figured maybe I should, this is Brideofjc's reply to me with my comments inbetween: First off your condescending tone is right out of the shame and ridicule play-book a book which VPW and LCM used very well, even better then the bible, it's no surprise you are well versed in it. There are volumes of history and mythic writings that pre-date the Judean and Christian eras that teach of the flood myth and the eden or creation myth and the Saviour myth even the virgin birth and nativity myth. The virgin giving birth to a Saviour is a Solar worship myth told for thousands of years before the Christian era, the egyptian myth of Isis giving birth to Horus on the winter solstice (Dec. 25th) is one. Mithra was also born of a virgin on Dec. 25th was known as the light of the world, hailed as a Saviour and had 12 followers. Mithra's ascension to heaven was said to have occurred in 208 B.C., 64 years after his birth. Parthian coins and documents bear a double date with this 64 year interval. There is also the Hindu Goddess Devaki giving birth to Krishna. Perseus was also said to have been born of a virgin; and it is this story which Justin Martyr, the second-century Christian "Father of the Church," stigmatizes as an invention of the Devil, who, knowing that Christ would subsequently be born of a virgin, counterfeited the miracle before it really took place. OK, if you say so, you seem to be quite a manipulator yourself. I was never punished in Basic training, it's called Basic training not basic punishment. It's been proven by psychologists and educators for decades now that people learn better if praised and rewarded then if punished, but it seems you either didn't know that or want to ignore it. OK, you have reconciled the fact that a command carved in stone with god's finger saying Thou shalt not kill, is not in conflict with the same god commanding the same people he gave the same command not to kill to, with a new verbal command to kill those people over there? This is just being argumentative, and totally misses my point, but is rather illuminating as to the probable state of your mind, and that's Koooray-Zee. I like how you are taking my post so personally, becoming so enraged by it, it's really hysterical. OK believe what you want, the whole Christian system is based on ancient astrology or as some call it astro-theology, everything in the bible is manufactured by men. If the Library at Alexandria was not burned we would have had that ancient knowledge and the true sources of the bible sooner then now, but it's coming out from other sources and it will see the light of day. The ancients used these myths as teaching tools to help children learn several sciences at once, and it isn't clear now but back before calulators and computers man needed to keep much more in their heads. The study of the stars is a study in mathematics and as such correlates with navigation and the keeping of time which correlates to charting the seasons and times of planting and fishing and raising of animals. The use of mythical stories is designed to engage both hemispheres of the brain at the same time which allows the needs of both the emotional and the logical to be satisfied at once, thus locking into the mind of the student the teaching. Our system of education today is so different no body could recognize this truth, it takes an open mind to see it and understand it. If the Ancients were alive today they would be shocked that we are taking their exquisite teaching tools as literal historical people places and events, and their gods as real. The closest civilization chronologically to us that we know the most about was the ancient Egyptians and they used their gods and goddesses to teach advanced concepts, it was only after this knowledge began to be lost that they turned it into a religious ritual rather then a system of education to engage both sides of the brain simultaneously there by allowing there young to absorb the knowledge and retain it instantly. I bid you peace in your journey. Seth

Sometimes I get the writing bug late at night, and even though I'm tired I feel I must express myself. This is something I wrote for my MySpace blog last night thought I'd share it here. Ex-Cult reflections It was 20 years ago that I found myself in Eureka California involved with an abusive cult of the Christian persuasion. I lived with my Mother who is currently estranged from me, and couple a named Tom and Lucy. I was sick emotionally and mentally, I believed in the lies of the people who taught them and I used those lies to create a world of fantasy. Today I am an Atheist, I believe in people power and the energy that powers the universe, but I do not believe in a single all-powerful creative intelligence that concerns itself in human affairs, because I cannot prove it. For the most part the god described by men in the Bible and else were is a mythic creature of questionable origin. The God of Genesis takes allot of mental gymnastics to grasp it's motive, one might defend the scripture by saying it's the translators fault, I think the fault lies with the clergy. In Genesis we first have a creator god, who imposes one rule don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then says eat it and thou shalt surely die, after the couple eat the fruit what does the creator do? Instead of killing them it kicks them out, and puts a guard in front of the tree. Kind of a manipulative god I think, why tell them about the tree at all, and why if you have guards, why not use them before this happens? It's like pointing out a rabbit to your dog and then punishing it after it chases and kills the rabbit. Then the creator god becomes a distant figure uttering obscure commands from the clouds like, build an Ark here are the dimensions and floor plan. Even better it is speaking from a burning bush, or in the holy of holies. How about issuing 10 commandments one of which is no killing, and then tell the people to invade their neighbors and utterly destroy them. I have a problem with people who have come out of cults who still want to practice the same doctrine that formed the cult mind set. There are those that left the cult I was in who still believe what they were taught, with out so much as a single investigation into alternatives. The essence of the logic is to say: "Well Hitler was the real problem, but the Nazi doctrine and the methods of the party are sound, I still believe them and live by them today." to me this would be madness, yet there are some who are actively seeking to bring the third Reich into it's glory. The cult experience had a significant impact on me, and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't have some sort of flashback or cognitive dissonant brain fart and end up ranting to myself in the bathroom over a thing that happened 15 or more years ago. How people can still live in the full blown practice of the same faith that built the cult they were in is beyond me. I do understand that bad leaders exist and they can setup systems to trap the unaware but once the system is in place that reprograms the minds of people then it is the system that is corrupt not the people. So if you were to ask me which came first the corrupt leader or the corrupt system I would say the leader, and they created the system, but once I realized I was duped I had to look at the leader and the system. Once I realized the leaders were bad and I knew they made the system, I had the uncomfortable decision to either continue with a broken system or scrap it all. So I know that a corrupt system made by a corrupt person has no redeeming value, and trying to revamp it is much like trying to revive a body that's been two weeks dead. Seth

LOL, sorry. Seth

Probably until the next Ice Age. :) Seth

Aldi's is a European company that does well at providing a variety of products at a decent cost, I have one a block and a half away. Over all they have decent quality, however it's not obvious at first what's worth it and what isn't. I have several tips for people who may want to shop at Aldi: You get what you pay for, Aldi's has two lines of food, price and quality are reflected, the cheaper of the two may not be what you want to buy. The cheaper stuff tends to be over processed fatty, salty and filled with preservatives. Their fresh? meats are OK, but I suspect ultra preserved and maybe irradiated. Their milk has some crazy shelf life, good if you are on a budget, bad if you want preservative free milk. The ground turkey is cheap but when I was eating meat I used it and it was very hard to digest. Their ground beef is scary, but eatable, I mean the ?fresh? stuff is like their milk stays fresh for a loooong time. Allot of their frozen veggies come from over seas, the steamer bowls which I eat once or twice a day come from Belgium, so when it says to cook thoroughly they mean it! I got a serious stomach ache from a bowl of it because I didn't let it steam for 2 minutes, 6 minutes total. All in all you need to be a shopper at Aldi's and if you find yourself in digestive distress after eating their food, don't worry just buy the higher quality stuff it's still a deal. BTW I'm a coffee snob and Starbucks is my ideal coffee, well Aldi's has a new blend, that is comprable to Starbucks for 1/3 the price! The Sumatra is awesome and I have yet to get the Breakfast blend but it smells just like Starbucks to me. Seth

OK this is a site I stumbled on that really is confusing on so many levels, sort of like the blow off after a side show act. http://www.superheartliving.com/wierwille.html Rick Josey had this to say: "Do you believe the Bible is God's Word and is accurate in all its details? So did Victor Paul Wierwille! This Christian Hero not only believed in "the accuracy and integrity" of God's Word, he could prove it to you!" Is this guy for real? WTF? Who is this guy? What planet is he from? Oh well I'm going to look at more of the site it seems like a treasure trove of funny stuff, I'll keep you posted. Seth

I stumbled on this when doing a google for the PFAL class, seems interesting and I might buy it. Here's a quick clip: Page 53 Chapter 1 1971: I was a teenage Wierwille "It was a crisp, dusky sunday evening in late April 1971 when Cary Potter and I pulled into a slot at the YMCA on the east side of Wichita. The air was cool and comfortable the way it is in Kansas that time of year... ...There under the awning, wearing sandals and Osh-Kosh jeans with on shirt beneath the straps, stood Evan Pyle, beaming like a kid at a circus." http://books.google.com/books?id=bUeO6Ir2p...kOxdnM#PPA53,M1 So who is this guy, and who else knew him? Seth

Wow cool I guess I'm at stage 6 enlightenment. Thanks, Seth

Wow, just finished listening to that episode. I've been out since Dec of '94 so all I heard from '87 to '94 was a mix of Geer's cryptic regurgitations from his West Coast Cronies, and TWI party line like the *gag-gag* leadership tapes from LCM et al. So 14 years later it's very healing to hear what was shared, I hope you have more from this person and hopefully others who were top leaders who left will come forward to share their awakenings. I haven't had any revelation in a long time, and I think that's a good thing. Seth

Hi Paw, I guess 8 years and still *not* a grease spot is a good record. It would be interesting to do a visual timeline of events since the opening of the GSCafe. I haven't listened to the new podcast but I can feel the knots in my stomach already, the Fog years (as LCM, HRA and DEW referred to it, claiming that since the POP to 1989 when the trustees severed their ties with Geer was like a fog) was a very crazy time and although not planned by the HQ trustees I think it was well utilized and taken full advantage of by them. A loud "Huzzah!" for the Grease Spot Cafe and all the management wait-staff and cooks, here's a raised cup of Joe for another 8 years. BTW, I think I left once and came back twice. ;) Seth

LOL that was funny! Reminds me of the Robin Williams bit about god, he said something like this. "Do you think god ever gets high? I mean like when he made the Duck Billed Platypus, ok make it furry likes to swim with webbed feet, a ducks bill, poisonous barbs on hind legs, umm and oh yeah it lays eggs. Eff you Darwin!" Hahaha! Seth

Thanks that was cool. Here's a Keynote the Woz did for the 5th hope. It's in MP3 format, very fun and gives a lot of history. Saturday Keynote: Steve Wozniak Part 1 Part 2 Seth

Thanks, I've been toying with an idea for a podcast for some time now, I have a site I want to host the podcasts from and a forum and chat. If I just spend some time getting on the talkshoe thing and learning how to use it maybe we can start a weekly 1 hour or so format. And on the fly we can have people posting new content relative to the discussion and have it as a single thread, including chat transcript and URLs. If I get some more interested parties I'll give out my web site address and people can join the blog/forum. I just need to get going on it. Seth

I'm glad to know you have some relief now. Aleve is a wonder drug, to bad I can't take it any more, it gives me asthma I took it for five years before I read the side effects and put two and two together. Wonderful at killing my headache just makes it impossible to breath. Seth

I think the real question is this, regardless of belief system is the group abusive to it's followers and does it take an elitist position that implies or literally states infidels should die? I don't care what you believe, if that system of belief calls for death of those that don't believe the same, and it enforces strict adherence to dogma under pain of being ostracized, then I would call it a cult. Abuse can take the form of: Emotional Sexual Financial Labor Physical Social Mental It clouds the issue when we start getting involved with ideology I prefer just cutting to the chase, forget what they believe. Do they beat their followers? Do the deprive them of food, sleep, free time, social interaction with the outside world? Do they threaten that if their followers leave the group that they will have bad things befall them? Do they forbid contact with those not in the group especially family and old friends? Do they require that their followers bring new people in or suffer judgment? Do they require a large percentage of wages to be given by the follower in order to secure their good standing with the group? I think when talking to the followers the mistake has been made and I have made it, that the focus is on the belief system. What I've come to realize is if we start with human questions, like are you eating enough, how much sleep are you getting, how long has it been since you've talked to your folks, has anyone threatened you, or hit you, do you feel at ease, are there pressures to conform, have you felt less then because you haven't met the expectations of your group leader, would you feel safe if you left the group, how much money are you expected to give every week, if you became ill from let's say heart disease or cancer do you think you could see a doctor without a problem from the group, when is the last time you were able to go away by yourself for an afternoon or day or weekend, how far can you travel by yourself from where you live, etc... Seth

Hi folks, This comes from the "Some-of-my-best-ideas-happen-in-the-shower" Department. Seems to me that there maybe enough interest that an Atheists section could get some action, and I was wondering if some of my Atheist, Pantheist, Agnostic, and Humanist friends would like to chime in on the subject? I have about a dozen topics I'd like to explore with people here, like: the Astrotheological roots of the old and new testament. Egyptian Monotheism: A precursor to Judaism? The disappearance of Tuthmose, and the appearance of Moses: Coincidence? Primordial "flood" stories spanning dozens of cultures hundreds and even thousands of years before Noah. The Virgin myth from half a dozen cultures through out history predating the Christian era. The Sun cult, Lunar cult, Stellar cult and Saturnian cult and their relation to themes found in the bible. Morality and Religion? Recovering from extreme superstition. The human animal: civilizations only hope. (why denying our animal nature is the most dangerous thing we can do.) God free and happy. (share your stories) The difference between religious faith and logical faith. Atheists too are reverent. Pantheism, let the joy of no sects begin. That's all I can think of. Seth

I hear ya, when I was in the Air Force I had to have all of my wisdom teeth pulled before going over seas. The oral surgeon asked me if I just wanted 2 now and 2 later, I said yank them all I don't want to deal with this twice. Well anyway I developed dry socket in all four, and um the pain, hard to describe but maybe like having a hammer tapping my jaws every time my heart beat. Clove oil helped a little but mostly I just had to wait. Ah, the sweet memories of the Air Force.... Seth