Seth R.

Thanks WW for that insightful post. My Mom always told me that one of the guys who started D&D was a cop out, and that the game started out as a Way Corps training tool, but I never believed that. I might just get into it now it sounds like a really fun social setting. Seth

I am a Utopian dreamer. I am a Realistic worker. I am a Hopeful skeptic. I am a Social healer. To dream, to see beyond the fragile manufactured temporal existence we call life, into the true nature of reality. To realize, our existence is of cause and effect, we do not exist independent or sustain our existence by being dependent. Our highest goal is to live interdependently, the only truly sustainable life is one that lives skillfully neither independent or dependent but interdependent, in reality that I do not survive alone even on a desert island. Incongruity, inequality, discomfort in the apparent disparity of life between what we dream and what we see and observe as life. The discomfort of change, comes from the new disharmony of a new broken chord. Dissatisfaction, unrest, apathy, violence, death. The impermanent nature of reality, and the desire for lasting permanence in physical existence. Cease suffering, cease disparity, cease discomfort, cease inequality, cease disharmony, cease permanence, cease existence. One, we are, singularity, harmonic, essential, reality, unity.

It took 28 years to get the World Title again but it was worth the wait! Go Phils! Seth

This explains a lot, but then again it is disappointing because this is an attitude we should have grown out of by adulthood. I mean every one wants to be right, but the question is for me, what's more important to be right or happy? It's seems through a series of events his *need* to be right didn't get filled by his father or his coaches. He found TWI and people who were all about being "right" he climbed the ladder proving he was "right" then once on top with not many above him to tell him he was "right" he made sure he was. He started changing things, and making it his idea of right, but as with all action that is taken out of ignorance the satisfaction was temporary. Being right isn't all it's cracked up to be, most of the time now I hate being right, because it feeds the thing I don't want to get fat - my ego. I work with people in varying stages of recovery from drugs and alcohol, most of them are obsessed with being right and perfection until they start doing the work on self that identifies the causes and conditions of their illness mentally. The right brand the perfect buzz, these are all powerful obsessions that usually don't go away without finding and facing their pattern, and understanding the source of the suffering. A chronic obsession with being right usually ends with surrender or madness. In TWI it was all about being "right on" and attaining perfection, boy what a mind freak. Rightly divided, perfection in christ blah blah blah, whatever. Seth

You think that's great, forget money I have booty! That's right a whole village of young sexy virgins in Ghana want to make me their Husband/King. LOL

Jim I do listen, and very deeply, and I understand this, if you would go on the premise that the technology exists today to do everything thing that is talked about in these videos, and money is not a factor because we shifted to a resource based economy. Then the question needs to be asked, why aren't we doing it, or more to the point what's stopping us or blocking us as a society from doing it? The monetary system is what is stopping us, money makes everything scarce because without money you can't buy the resources needed to do the job. What if we as a society said, let's get rid of the money system, which is truly what is misleading here, not the videos. So we get rid of the money system, and say everyone who has technology that can get the job done will be provided for, free food, housing, clothing, and the necessities of life. With all those things taken care of then we will be free to build a world of our dreams. Then we only need to become a resource based economy, where we say to the people we need the resources from you can have any of our resources and they in turn say agreed you can have any of our resources. All we need is people inspired to do it. The world is full of technicians who currently work for money to pay their bills, but who if they knew their families and houses were safe, because they don't have to pay for things, they knew that any food they need is provided they would still work at the job, and maybe better. You see it takes vision to see the full potential of humans, and it will take a re-engineering of our culture, economy and education in order for this to happen. It takes real vision to make the Quantum leap into a way of life that is so alien to what we have right now that it looks like science fiction. What we need is a system that frees people from the mundane work-a-day world of 9 to 5 and make all repetitive work automated, reduce the work day and work week, give people all that they need to live well, take personal profit motive out of it. See it seems you are like most people, you believe that the current system is the only way it can be done, barter and trade is a concept that is thousands of years old, and served a purpose at one time, when there were less people and the technology to find and harvest or mine resources and manufacture goods and ship those goods and resources was not like it is today. The current system should have died 30 years ago, but here we are limping along on and antiquated unsustainable system. A system based on scarcity, and economic debt, rather then abundance and truly FREE trade. If resources cost nothing except to go to the place and get them then everyone who had an idea and a desire to make something could do it, no doubt, no worry about can I afford it, just do it. No more scarcity, because who ever needs anything can get it, no strings no debts no worries. We have systems today that can automate anything, burger king could totally automate their restaurants, you plug in what you want and the machine cranks it out. There are millions of people in this country alone who if given an unlimited supply of hardware and shop equipment would build anything they needed, and for their friends and so on. What limits us is the artificial scarcity created by the monetary system. Money, politics, military, laws these are all now obsolete, and either people like you are going to have to wake up to that fact, or we go into a global civil war and another dark ages or make the long over due quantum leap into what man has evolved to be. Free Now back to your point, if underground sewer pipe cost no money, only the resources to build it which are only dependent on the time it takes to get the materials and the people and the machines to do it. I ask you is it so absurd? Financial analysis is not needed because money is not a factor in a resource based economy and the only thing that is deceptive is the current system of money, politics, military and scarcity. We live on a planet of abundance, if managed correctly and used wisely. Peace, Seth

Fresh Garlic cut the clove and rub it on the acne. Plus find out if he's regular, skin conditions are often linked to digestive problems. Seth

Regardless of scripture VPW certainly wasn't the original in many of his views. Alistair Crowley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley Frank Buchman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Buchman

More information and solutions: Tellus Institute - For a Great Transition

Owned

Did you watch the movie? It is not human nature to be violent, there is no human nature, there is human behavior, and human behavior is influenced by environment. The superstition that there is an ethereal battle being waged between god and the devil and we humans are caught in the middle is just part of the over all story your owners want you to believe. Laws have never influenced human behavior in a healthy way, laws are put in place to bind people by the owners of this world. The current environment cannot support love on a widespread basis. You are right, nothing changes if nothing changes, the current environment is unsustainable and will have to collapse, The Venus Project is offering a re-engineering of our society in that inevitable occurrence. If we open our minds to the possibilities and get started now with these ideas we will be in a better place when this society does collapse, and it's sooner then you think. I'm raising the alarm not to monger fear, but give information to people so they can decide for themselves and see that the monetary economy is no longer a sustainable viable means to provide for a healthy and peaceful society. Well the monetary system was never designed for healthy or peaceful existence anyway, but that's a topic for another time. What is needed is a resource based economy where everyone is given truly equal opportunity to create the life they want, without the fear of scarcity and limited resources. There is over abundance in this world, scarcity is an illusion a story told by the owners of this world, if you buy into it you are owned. The difference between people like you and people like me is I know I'm owned, and who owns me and I act accordingly I stay awakened to the fact and look for a way out to escape monetary slavery. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe It's like Albert Einstein once said. "The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe." Love and Peace, Seth

Did any of you watch it all the way through?

Just visit this web site. The Zeitgeist Movement I'm very saddened that so far you have missed the point. Seth

For me the First Zeitgeist movie was moving and awesome. It left me hanging though, with a question of what's next? It was clear that the same paradigm that I grew up with was not the answer. A new evolution needs to happen. We are about to move into a Planetary Civilization, and if the transition is successful life for our children and grandchildren and onward will be unlike anything we ever dreamed of. It's going to take willingness to change, and a lot of courage because the last century resisted the transition. We are on the cusp of a collapse of the old civilization, the end of the world for some but the beginning of a new society for me and millions and billions of people. Some aren't going to go with out a fight, but the enlightened will welcome it. So without further adieu, Zeitgeist: Addendum

The 2 drink minimum, er-uh limit, was also for WOW's and I did my best to have no more then 2 40 ounce beers on Sunday doing my laundry... :) On a more serious note, for an alcoholic 2 drinks is an annoyance it's more trouble then it's worth. Looking back it's a wonder how I stayed dry on the WOW field it was serious torture, every other Friday Sam would come over with a 6 pack of Micky's big mouth and I got two he got two and Mark got two. Just enough for a little buzz, but it took a lot of effort to keep me from walking to the circle K across the street, and buying more. So for non-alcoholics it's easy to stop at 2. But then again why even have a rule? Rules are just for breaking anyway. Maybe that was the point. Seth

I do not take that as a contradiction or disrespect, it's just more information. Usually "the present truth" is just the spin on the past truth. So what I was told I completely accept as being wrong information, after all it is TWI we are talking about. Thanks for the update, Seth

Enron? You can go further back then that, almost 100 years ago when stock market speculation was in it's heyday, in the 1920's where people were making millions (today would be hundreds of millions) on a 10% margin. The JP Morgan's and Rothschild's and Rockefeller's, big money and bankers used the collapse of the small banks to buy up the debt and consolidate more of the wealth into less hands. They might be seen as competitors but they were all friends and even family, this kind of thing has been happening through out history, but in particular within the last 100 years we can see an escalation in occurrences. It is not surprising to me what's happening, and as we approach the teens and twenties of this century I can't help but think we are headed for a 1929 style collapse again. Why? Because the grand children of the people who engineered the 1929 collapse are in the same position to do the same thing. Again. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Seth

The Bottom line is we need to get rid of the Federal Reserve which is a private bank cartel that makes "money" or Fiat Currency from debt. We need to get back to a value based currency and not the current debt based currency. Prices aren't going up, the value of the dollar is going down. Believe it or not if we were still on the Gold Standard a barrel of Crude Oil would be about $4, a Gallon of Gas about 10 cents, and the Bailout for these banks, well it would have never been needed, but if so only $15 billion. This is based on the price of gold in 1920 which was around $20 an ounce. Seth

Yes I understand, it makes sense. Something I noticed in the real world is that anyone can have any of these symptoms but not be involved with an abusive group. So comes the question, does the cult induce these, or attract people with these. From my experience I would have to say about 50/50, certainly as outreach and witnesses we wanted to get and help anyone, some of the folks I worked with during my WOW year needed psych meds more then Jesus. Which brings me to my next topic/question. Have you worked with people who on reflecting realize they weren't searching for anything until they were told that something was missing? As I look back the need to search was manufactured for me, and the illusion of needing to find God and get saved were made worse by everyone opposing my desire to find what I didn't know I needed until I was told I did. The problem of cults specifically and religion in general is they make up a product or a story about the product I call that the Big Story, and then in order to sell the Big Story they need to convince you that you are a character in that story, that you need the product. If I don't accept the story, they tell me another story for free, it's a short story but it's about what happens to those who don't buy the Big Story it's a commercial. I mean it's like laundry soap commercials, I use whatever I buy on sale that doesn't make me itch, but if I watch a laundry soap commercial I might find out that my clothes are 10% dingier then clothes washed with XYZ brand. So now I have a need I didn't know I had, now I need to find this XYZ brand because I don't want to go to laundry hell. I suspect people are more likely to research different laundry soaps more then they research the religion they are involved with or are about to get involved with and do the comparison. Hardly anyone I know has taken time to actually do some comparative religion and see how similar they all are, most only know what their Pastor or Priest tell them. Most people raised in religion are taught to believe in God, Jesus and Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Faerie one by one they stop believing in them except for God and Jesus. My question is why? How is the story of Jesus any more valid then Santa Clause? I have yet to have anyone answer sanely and authoritatively certainly they have no references outside of the scripture. Why? Sorry for the slight derail. Seth

It wasn't a class it was a couple of Corps nights that the trustees released to a very restricted audience, Standing WC, Twig coordinators, Advanced class grads. The Leadership Tapes were a requirement for me to attend the Advanced Class Special in '92. Seth

I wish I still had my notes. In a nutshell it was LCM talking about Chris Geer and how TWI decided to break from him, and all the associated BS. It was basically LCM's spin on POP and the years from 86 to 89, it was in these tapes where the term "Fog Years" was coined to describe those years. In those tapes LCM talks about the Greek word Terasso (spell?) that Lynn one of the Athletes spirit dancers showed him. He talked about how he wrote a letter of resignation and how he decided to stay. blah blah blah. Spin spin spin. Seth

About this "You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone" It's getting better but I still do it, and I hate it. (this is something I haven't shared with many people) Shortly after I left TWI I was hired to work for a Software Company, I had a really bad time I would sit in my cubicle repeating over and over outloud to myself. "I am Seth Rosen, I'm Seth Rosen..." It was torture I couldn't stop I'd say "I'm stupid" I'd utter curses and just mutter, I was really a mess. I even want to forget those things now, but it seems I need to face how sick I was and try to understand and heal. Seth

John, thanks again for this thread. Something I try to keep in mind as I go through life is that what I at times experience to extremes other people may also experience but not to the degree I do. There is a wonderful realization that can only be realized through experience and that is that all of the basic things that make a cult a cult exist in all cults, so now to me TWI is no different then JW, LDS, Scientology (well maybe that's a stretch :o ) or any of the others. I only felt this after a 45 minute group session at a cult awareness conference. For me the AFF conference I attended produced a violent emotional reaction, which helped me rearrange things in my mind. I came out the other side of it stronger, with a greater desire to fight to get my life back, and my true identity, not the cult persona. The question of how do I know if the disassociation came from the cult experience or a traumatic upbringing? What occurs to me is I seek safety when threatened, but what is familiar is seen as safe. So if I run from one situation to another without a pause to think through all the factors and consult with sound minds about why I'm running and where I really want to go , I may just wind up in the same situation, but a different venue. This is why I'm concerned for people just jumping right back into a splinter group or a church, or even getting heavily involved here, and never reevaluating their lives. I hope I made sense, if not please ask me to explain what I mean, Seth

Huh, what? Were you saying something. O.K. just kidding. You offered a lot here to read and think about thank you. I'm going to read it a couple more times. As far as Eastern meditation goes, Zen, Tibetan, etc... a true and ethical guide will emphasize that the purpose is to train the mind to be mindful. To fully experience every thought, every emotion, every sensation and still stay seated focusing on the breath. Spacing out and escaping ones own thoughts and the pain of life in not genuine meditation, that's this fast food junk food rock star guru half-a$zed meditation nonsense. I find myself spacing out less, since being treated for bipolar and talking to a therapist. Seth