HAPe4me

Only in a case where there is no government at all are decisions not made by others concerning our life. I do not know oif such a place. The best we can hope for in most cases is that the decisions a government makes over our lives are ones we can reasonably live with. I am not certain that "WE" know the PC folks are downright dangerous. You might know this, but I reserve the right to disagree, pending further analysis. Unless by PC you refer to the flack between Windows based computers and the Apple O.S., and then I might have to agree with you afterall, mostly but not in every case, sometimes, in some applications. Clear as mud? HAP <======marks 01/27/2007 as the day Kathy agreed with one of my posts.

Kathy- I just noted your definition. "A light tap...." to me that is just "getting attention". My definition of spanking would be: "a series of taps or swats, light or otherwise, given as punishment for a perceived wrong behavior or to discourage future wrong behavior". If all we had been talking about these 4 pages was "a light tap", I doubt I would have had much of an opinion. However, some have expressed support for using everything from hands to belts to spoons to switches. Some have expressed their idea that it is a GOOD thing to instill fear of pain from anyone in authority to guide a child's behavior. These attitudes is what I dispute. A single "light tap" is not painful, and: I hope nobody thinks I was making an issue of a "light tap". IMO, slapping a young hand AS they reach towards a hot stove or lawnmower or other potentially dangerous activity, is far different from taking the child aside and deliberately with intent, instilling pain on them in hopes of teaching them to not repeat an activity like running around a store or saying some word or not cleaning their room, or getting into a fight, "talking back" or whatever the case may be. Sushi- within the definition I used for spanking, I am HAPPY to believe I am "SO RIGHT", but I will not beat you over the head with it. :P I contend that the concept of "might makes right" is outdated, and probably was never correct in parenting (or international affairs), no matter if the long term result was not physically or mentally damaging to anyone in a particular case. We should not inhibit ourselves from expressing our belief that we are right, we should also never be so closed-minded to other views that we fail to learn from others. I have listened, I have learned, but as yet have seen nothing presented in the way of anything other than anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that spanking and slapping were the beneficial determining factors in the life of a child. In any particular anecdotal situation, perhaps spanking or slapping can not be proven to cause long term mental or physical harm. Did it help, or would a less CONVENIENT discipline technique have been at least equally and perhaps more successful? I think parents should consider this. All I hoped for in this discussion is that parents consider what they are doing, and not pick the convenience of spanking and slapping if it in any way could be damaging to a child physically or mentally. My children are long out of the house, it will never be a choice I personally need to make again. When (if) a grandparent I become, I hope I have the patience to deal with matters in a steady and considerate way, as I tried so carefully to do with my own children. I did not and do not take parenting lightly. I only had hoped to share my views, my experiences, and some of what I have learned through years of formal and informal thought on this very subject. ~HAP If everyone's free will was as willfully considered as yours, this likely would not have been a 4 page thread, and legislation would likely not have been considered to perhaps be needed. ~HAP

Templelady- I understand Anchorage has been dumped on with snow this year, as have we on the Front Range of Colorado. Its tough having to stay in the ruts we are in (when we drive)! Its kind of like driving on a railraod track isn't it? Be safe, be warm, and stay dry. ~HAP

I thought we all might enjoy this store sign I was sent today: HAP

I doubt anyone thought otherwise Kathy. I certainly did not mean to cast such a view of Abi or anyone else here either, I apologize if I appeared that way. Lest any thinks otherwise, I did not let children run wild to find themselves either. boundaries yes, all I was addressing is how those boundaries be taught. Ownership is not given over to the child, although ownership for their mistakes needs to be. too many parents cover for junior so long into their adulthood that the child never learns to make a decision. That to me is the fallacy in "do what I say, I am the parent" type child-rearing. To tell a child they do not need to understand why, it is enough that I told you so, inhibits their ability to make cognitive choices. ~HAP

Kathy- if you would REALLY vote for me you would visit in chat and hear my full platform., whats with that "chatty " part of your name anyway? Isn't it in the Constitution that a child born here is a citizen? Was Temple wanting to change that?

I don't understand. When would the swat have been administered in the case of the lawnmower? When they first approached it? after they touched it? while in the garage? Teaching "no" is always good, especially when something is life threatening. I had two distinct Daddy "no"s. the NO! and the no. Each were used when they applied. If there is a hand free to swat a child in the street, there is a hand free to grasp him before they get there. I don't understand what you are saying Abi.

now Kathy, you needn't be unsettled, the bill hasnot passed, and is just being considerd to be presented. AND by the way, this is something proposed in a state legislature (CA at the moment), not the US Congress, in case any of us are ummmm confused. ~HAP Children are our legacy to a time we cannot see.

Sure a small group of us could Kathy, but being a minority view, I could not get elected even if votes were confined to "Spotters". It is a great discussion, and for the most part pleasant. That part I DO like. I would have difficulty expressing my opinions on some of this without losing my own temper, so I refrain for now. What I have to say would not come close to changing anyones view here. I might just work on our legistors instead. It is an issue I am working on, but do not know at this point if I will ever get back to posting here on it. ~HAP Children are our legacy to a time we will not see.

Whether is is insanity from the government or not, I will let others debate. On your last sentence, I would add: and it is precisely that age group who is most likely to get physically and mentally hurt by it. You are trgiht, children that age are not adept at reason, therefore they are not behaving by using reason. Pain stimulus will not change the underlying cause of their behavior. Under age four a child is probably being disruptive because they are tired, hungry, or wanting attention. tired and hungry have obvious solutions. Spanking a child that age because they want attention is hardly the attention they should get. ~HAP Children are our legacy to a time we will not see.

Good points Dooj. "they learned to reason and listen to reason" As to the "grand bullying threats..." A wonderful national speaker on parenting, Barbara Coloroso, once told me to consider this: "Is it life threatening, is it morally threatening, is it unhealthy?" If not, then smile while you watch them learn. If they forget their jacket, don't take it to them. If they get cold, they are likely to remember next time. If they don't get cold, then they didn't have it with them to lose anyway! I assume if it was unhealthily cold, MY kids would recognize this upon steppng outside. LOL Here are some links to things Barbara teaches, including one of her books, "Kids are Worth It": http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/L...ctNov01p99.html and: http://urbanmoms.typepad.com/urbanmoms_boo...5/09/index.html Another of her lines is: "I believe in you; I trust you, you can handle this, you are listened to, I care for you, and you are important to me." HAP Children are our legacy to a time we will not see.

gee, I coulda said it all in a few words like you did Shell! why didn't I? I point out that I did not "allow" bad behavior. I, with a onetime exception, did not succumb to the idea of "I can prove the importance of my dominance by hitting you". Most the other "advisories" were well accomplished with "dad's look", or if the situation needed it, an escort to a private place where I DID make sure my logic was understood. I WAS consumed with it. The message I preferred was "I am Dad, I know more, and until you can demonstrrate to me with sound argument that this is no longer the case, you need to listen." The boys still come to me for advice, call from across national borders, and text message my phone, but they do it less than before, and the time will come when their sound logic will trump mine. The time passed long ago that I could physically dominate them. I am glad they never had to prove that point to me to win an argument. I never subscribed to the TWI view that "you will do what I say" because I am the parent, or "because I am limb coordinator". I see no difference between those two "reasons" to do what someone says. I know some did. Gad! ~HAP "Children are our legacy to a time not seen"

I have not looked at the bill, so I will not comment on its merits. However, I will chime in on the issue of spanking as a topic, being fully aware that I am apparently in the minority with my views, considering our ex TWI affiliations, and the "way we were raised" opinions. Some feel that beating a child is a way of teaching them. I wonder, what is it that the child learns? I am certain we mostly are in agreement on severe beating and abuse, and that is not the issue at hand now. I personally do not count a light slap on the hand or buttocks to be corporal punishment either. These are attention getters IMO, akin to lightly grasping a child's chin and directing their attention towards you words. It is my firm belief that anything more than extremely rare uses of corporal punishment (spanking and slapping) used to "discipline" a child are bad, and often leads to more severe problems in a child's psyche and well-being. Note that I said there could be some extremely rare circumstances when such a method might be useful. It should be reserved for those circumstances. Here is an interesting study I found, published in 1999 entitled "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample" : http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/16...pe2=tf_ipsecsha The full text of her study can be found in the link at the top right of the page. A synopsis by the author, Harriet L. MacMillan, MD: Clinical depression is the only, or one of the few, disorders that did not show an increased frequency parallel to frequency of spanking/slapping. How often I have heard "It was good enough for my parents.......and I turned out allright". I wonder sometimes. We also hear about how this country is going to heck in a handbasket, and more and more I see people less willing (or perhaps less ABLE mentally) to adjust and adapt to their surroundings and a changing world. I hear "kids today have so much contempt for adults". I wonder how much of the so-called rebellious attitude we have, and children today have, could be ascribed to poor parenting practices. It is hard to find legitimate studies that indicate benefit from frequent use of corporal punishment. Some merit can be shown for the "occasional" use, as is common in many countries, especially in Asia. I spanked one of my boys (a young teen) one time, in a severe situation. We both sincerely apologized the next morning. We both knew it was a rare event, and therefore the issue of the time was of more importance than "you were late" or "you sassed me". Anyway, I found it quite effective to reward for good behavior, and withhold reward during bad behavior virtually all the other moments when discipline was needed. Winning a child's respect is more easily accomplished through earning it rather than beating it into them. It is also quite less expensive than years of therapy such as far too many people find necessary for themselves these days. (This is NOT to say such therapy is not warranted or needed, I am just stating the fact that there are one heck of alot of people utilizing it to get through some life event or series of events). I have no way to definitively ascribe that corporal punishment resulted in a need for later therapy in any individual case. But perhaps the above study shows that there is in general a link beteen such things. Lastly, one thing I most certainly do not entertain as useful to any degree, is corporal punishment in schools. Educators are or were once) there to teach my kids academics, arts, and physical education. I do not feel part of the physical education should be that adults are bigger, stronger, and can hit and get away with it. In light of the fact that many parents do not in their home ascribe to the tenets of "beat it into them", educators should NEVER be allowed to strike a child other than in instances where imminent danger exists for the teacher or nearby students. NEVER!. I do not care how many paddles we saw in the gym teacher's or principal's hands when we grew up. It did not make your life more meaningful or disciplined. You only took your misbehavior outta sight or jurisdiction of them. I felt so strongly on that issue that a number of years ago I successfully presented to the legislature and saw through passage a state law to that effect. I have never since doubted its advisability. It was not easy to get sufficient support, but we succeeded in the end, and I feel I did well. Some feel that beating a child is a way of teaching them. I wonder, what is it that the child learns? ~HAP

I am sure that by the time it gets to the real competition, and the real entertainment, they will have found the same caliber of performers they have in the past. For some reason the producers seem to think that we find it entertaining to watch these prelim shows. COME ON!- Friends should not let friends who cannot sing audition for AI. Buy them a drink instead! What is going through those people's minds? GAD!

Geez, you guys have been doing a fine job in my absence and have raised some wonderful conversational points on which I will soon reply. However dang it do you not know about the important things in life going on right now? Football! Surely that can bring all ancestral cultures together. :unsure: (just kidding folks) I am fully aware that football in most the world is what we call soccer, and for that matter there are many more important things than either sport. (don't tell the gangs at the Futball stadiums in Europe that though) :( Seriously, I was trying to chill for the day and get some guvmint paperwork done but you are very distracting. I have not forgotten the thread, and look forward to getting back to it. Rhino- I will try not to be so burdensome with the questions ~HAP

rocky- by "midwest superbowl" me think the fast but not so nimble African mammal was referring to a Miami superbowl with Chicago and Indianapolis playing. but then again maybe, knowing his lilt to the right, it is possible Rhino doesn't know where Miami is. Tancredo (R-CO) said Miami is a Third World country of its own. ~HAP

N'arleans is getting hit by another hurricane. 18 point diff now. NO does not seem able to hold onto the ball, they have lost three turnovers. Perhaps there is oil in the water down there? Go Bears

David- You asked what we use and what we think of ours. I use Verizon and have quite happy with it. My only complaint is that free night-time minutes do not start until 9pm. This works fine for when I make calls to the west, but not so well for calls to the east. I call at 9 my time, it is 11pm on the east coast. My word of caution is to make as good a guess as you can as to how many minutes you spend on the phone, multiply by at least 1 1/2 and start there with your plan. Over-allowance charges are high, (.40 or .50 per minute). You can always cut back your plan to fewer minutes if you see you are not using them, but getting a more-minutes plan is much cheaper than paying for lots of extra minutes each month. I was very surprised how much I used when I first started, in spite of being very cautious of how much I used it. Also, be aware that the advertised monthly charges do not include all the taxes, surcharges etc. that are added to your bill. This applies to any carrier, so make sure you are comparing total monthly bill to total monthly bill when comparing landline to cellline. Free long distance is important to you I think, because of your calls to Indiana, but those calls do count against your minutes if made before 9pm on Verizon. (unless your calls are made to another Verizon wireless phone). Since my sibs have verizon also, and so do my kids, I make many calls that are not counted against my plan. A word on text messaging- I use it quite frequently. NOT for carrying on conversations and chatting, but for communication. I often use it to communicate with a deaf worker. I also use it to give or receive important information to someone at times when I really would rather not get caught up in chitchat, (like when I am working). I find that quite handy about 50 times a month. I look at it this way, even though it costs 10 cents, it saves me 5 minutes of time, minimum, and usually more. Once I get someone on the phone, it seems easy to talk about something else for 10 minutes, weather, evening plan, traffic or SOMEthing. (As proof, I was just going to say "Verizon- happy with it" when I first started writing this. Now it is 10 minutes later from when I started) I wish you had text messaging, I would have been done at that point! ~HAP

Sorry, I do not have time at the moment to respond, but I had to check-in and see how things were going. Rhino- thanks for your response, I appreciate your candor and the tone. will gander at the links you provided. Kathy and Rocky, good replies as to the topic. you guys have been wonderful too Rocky- I understand your last two posts, but would caution against the thread turning into a partisan pis$ing match. I suspect that what got you going was her use of the descriptor "tree-hugging", and I can see how you saw that as convoluted however. Just a caution, okay? ~HAP (a tree-hugging registered republican who quite often votes dem)

like Kathy and I have same views on some of the guts of 'tacks?????? LOL hehe this is fun

thanks for your questions Kathy, I'll look em over more another time, but on #2: We are not bound by law or anything else to pass laws to give that aid. That said, laws ARE passed (appropriations bills) to extend aid to other countries. Do you think we should not do that? We have been doing it for just about forever I believe. Is it time to stop? See. I know this all just keeps raising questions, and I get that Rhino did not like being asked them, but I would hope that just by us asking more questions we can come to a better understanding of each other, if not of the problem. Maybe that is all we can accomplish here, but that is still better than shooting unarmed bears. (or something) ~HAP

Sorry Rhino, I did not mean to put you on the spot. One of the stated goals with this thread is to identify the programs and get them out of the ranks of "I heard that...". Get them into some form where we can discuss their merits or lacks thereof. As I said in one of the initial posts, I am not comfortable writing to a congressman and being upset about a program I only heard someone "vaguely remember" on an internet board. At this point I admit that I am supposing that SOME PART of the anger I have heard is about a perception that in SOME cases is erroneous. I also expect that there ARE some programs that exist, which could be improved, and that there is abuse of SOME programs by people who have either illegally entered the country or illegally reside here. So, for now the idea that there is money given to immigrants to start businesses in the US is in a "perceived, existance not verified" list. I cannot be for or against a program that may or may not exist and I cannot be angry about recipients of a benefit that they may or may not in fact receive. You can be if you wish of course. The reason my question about turning-in employers is relevant, is we are also looking at what to do about problems that exist. It has been proposed that employers should be prosecuted. How will we identify the employers? Do we want to hire investigators to go door to door or should the citizenry act to identify them. OK, I see now that the way I worded it sounded like I was asking you personally. It was not meant to be "you, Rhino, specifically" as there are others who read the thread. I was sloppy. (can I have some of that wine you make). So, you think it is silly to seek proof as to what the problems are? OK, that is fine, but you, I, and others here, do know how to try and address bad laws and programs. For my part, I do not know how to address bad perceptions and gut feelings. What I am getting about the credit card thing is that it was "obvious" to you that these "not Americans (not in spirit at least)" were doing something that was "obviously" illegal or fraudulent, but that the store went ahead and accepted their cards anyway. OK As far as I know, credit card companies are not government insured. I have not yet heard of a credit card company going under either. I expect that the people who pay for the defaults to some degree are the people who have low credit scores and therefore high interest rate cards. Credit card companies, like insurance companies, charge according to risk. Overall, I expect they come out making money on each risk category. I don't THINK my taxes got to cover it, but maybe I AM "stupid" as you said. <_< I would expect the biggest losers to be the investors in the CC company if they were to go under. I do not know what the insignificant details I asked questions about were. Pretty much everything I asked went towards trying to identify whether something is in the perception category or the reality category at this point. I thought perhaps you as the person relaying the story might know more, apparently you do not, but you have heard it to be so. Perceptions may or may not be accurate so, no, it does not mean you are wrong, only that I may be unsure whether you are right. I have no intention of going out and searching for every law that someone says exists. I already read major portions of Title 8 Chapter 14 of the US Code before I started this thread. (thanks to someone who sent it to me, you know who you are, dang you! LOL) If someone brings something to the table and cannot provide their own links to show it exists, I will in some cases make my own "perception" as to its validity, and I will ask if they wish to bring us more. As an example, the interpreter thing I expect to be true. My question as to if there is such a law was to find out if these must be formal "Interpretors" or is the requirement simply that the hospital must be able to communicate between the patient and the doctor/nurse. Would multilingual staff members be able to fit the requirement for the majority of cases? I understand there are many languages, and there would be a need for some interpretors. I understand that there is a problem with misuse of ER facilities and this puts a crunch on the services these places are BEST equipped to handle, emergencies. I suspect one possible solution could be to have more small clinics to which these people might be referred rather than handling them in overtaxed ERs. Pass the beer Rhino! you need another and I would like one myself. ~HAP

Dunno if it is fire,I have seen far more combustible stuff from you Rhino! Even on this topic. I know before long we will be up to your speed. Please DO try and keep it appropriate for Open, (as you have done here) teehee Rhino- you mention "I seem to recall", etc. What was the program, did it exist, does it exist? Was it your perception that it existed but may have been something else entirely? Gee, this is like pulling teeth to get specifics! LOL You mention the benefit to the employer of saving money and having power. Would you still buy from this business? Are you sure he pays them less? Would you turn them in for illegally hiring? It is against the law isn't it? (It is here in Colorado I know) How far would you go to do something about it? I recall a conversation with someone in chat a while ago. This person was complaing about all the immigrated labor on a construction site for a housing developement he wanted to buy a house in. "Those laborers are driving the wage down" it was said. After listening for awhile, I asked him if he still bought the house. Yes he did. He replied something like "what, you expect people to stop buying the best deal on a house they can get?" I do not understand this "market on borrowing". What are you saying about the credit cards? They had too many? They owed too much? That they were stolen cards? That there is no intent to pay them off? How do you know whatever your answers are? How do you know these were "illegals"? What were they doing that you as a law abiding American cannot do? Be way too much in debt? Is that something that only a non-law abiding person can do? How does this affect you? I need more information. Columbia has a free emergency room? What law requires them to provide an interpreter for "any language"? How do you know who paid the bill? Are there laws that require a hospital to treat anyone no matter what the degree of their illness in an emergency room? ~HAP

Won't it be nice if we can keep it here? If it becomes totally politically oriented, I guess it could be taken to Decaf, but lets try it here for now? Actually at the time I finally got around to starting the thread, it was so early this am that I can't seem to get going today. NOTE: I think the only way to hope to keep this in Open forum is if we can avoid placing blame on a particular administration for the programs we might discuss. I would like to keep the discussion on identifying the programs people perceive to be the problem, learning whether the defined goals of them are what we believe them to be, perhaps there is abuse of programs that ARE appropriate? What programs should be done away with? What laws need to be changed? I guess what got me going on this is I HEAR "they" are getting all this tax-paid help and "I" can't get...... I wonder how many of these are true, how many are misunderstandings of what is being given away and by whom and to whom. I know I cannot tell by looking at, or even in most cases by talking to, someone whether they are here legally, illegally or if they are citizens. Is it often the case that those who speak about people receiving these benefits are not sure either? I do not mean the case Kathy is talking about. Concerning aid to refugees I think it is clear the recipients from Somalia she knows are here legally, and are able to get some kind of assistance through money that was appropriated under a specific government program, which she has now described as a form of aid to refugees from war-torn areas. Assumedly, Congress appropriated the funds for this after some period of debate, and it must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Is it being abused beyond its designed goals? On what scale? Kathy- is there something about the program itself to which you object? Do you know what the design of the program is for? I doubt that its design is to see how much we can give to people from other countries. Is it to help foreign nationals to get an education that they can take back to their country of origin and help it to become less needful of future humanitarian aid? Is there merit to that type of a program (if that IS what it is in fact about). Are you angry because of the attitude you got from these people or thatthe program itself exists, or both/ other? Veterans It seems apparent that there are problems, and HAVE been problems within The VA. I believe it unlikely that veterans who were injured from friendly-fire are not able to get the same benefits, as those who suffered from enemy combatant fire and have the same level of disability. It just does not make sense to me that it could be so. It DOES seem to me that it is quite possible that changes need to be made in the policies to streamline the ability to get help for which all veterans qualify for. Am I wrong on those injuries? Is there not enough money appropriated? Are there severe administrative issues to be addressed? Education K-12 I hear many complaints about the numbers of immigrants in our public schools. What are your thoughts in general about allowing the children of non-citizens to attend? What if the children were born here, but their parents are without documentation? Should they be allowed to attend if the parents are gainfully employed and paying taxes? Not employed? My view is that these are children! They need an education whether they end up living here or are returned to (as it has been called) "where they came from". (I remember that phrase also utilized when black/white desegregation was discussed in the 60s). I do not care whether they were born here or were brought over in the back of a truck, or came through the airport. Health Perhaps the single area I have heard the most concerns raised is in health care and hospital crowding. Should emergency care be given to undocumented residents? How about general sickness care? Are citizens really being denied care because of overcrowding or overuse by immigrants? How much does this really affect health care costs? I know I raised many questions, gave no answers, and gave few of my own views. I am still trying to frame the issue. Give me time, LOL, ya know I do not hesitate to share my views. I still would like to know what the programs are that people the last year or more have expressed such anger about. ~HAP