socks

Can't help but think of the movie "Deliverance" Raf. It may be profetic, I'm not sure. "You shore do have a perdy mouth".

Yah, Tom, Satch is well, Satch. I globbered awhile back somewhere about the two times I've seen him live and I believe this DVD is from the weekend he played at the Fillmore when my daughter and I saw him. While I would never suggest that Clapton isn't "god", if he ever turned out not to be, Satch could easily step in. I'm quietly fondling the DVD case and anticipating a full first viewing this weekend. Can't WAIT. I also went and picked up some new strings dmiller, and used it as an excuse to glom onto a couple Gretsch "Eletromatics" and play them for awhile. Very nice guitars. I kind of fell into one which felt very comfy and am pondering one now as the possible all-around f-hole, big body electric I've been looking for. I was impressed with the tonal qualities, and the playability of the neck. Dunno. The one I liked runs about 800 bucks, no case. I'm not there at this point, but y'know. GAS. GAS. :) I can't picture selling anything to finance it, although I have a piece or two of hardware that coooould go towards. As The Girl likes to say "we want to ADD to the collection, we don't want to SUBTRACT from the collection". These words of wisdom that far outstrip her years indicate to me I've raised the dear girl right, and I'd be a derlict dad if I set a bad example, so I am progressing with that in mind. I'm glad everyone's holiday was a good one!

Chrispyrich sed This passage is clear that it is not condoning divorce and that it is an indictment of the divorcing man's hardness of heart, not the wife's. You reminded me - a good translation of the Mark vv is - "Because of your hardness of heart", and hardness means unwilling to listen, stubbon, at wits end. Jesus seems to be talking to those Pharisees specifically but also may have been including men and women as a whole. By law only men were allowed to initiate divorce then, not women. So, it's reading as if He said 'divorce has been allowable to accomodate (your) hardness of heart, for that point where you stubbornly won't listen anymore and can't go any further". Jesus responds to the man and the woman's relationship - "what God joins together". He's definitely not condoning divorce as you say. The law allows for it, doesn't command anyone. Of course in reality it can be either person in a marriage, so if it's applied with any reasonableness it's going to have to include either one. I see this verse and Paul' suggestions on divorce are often used (wrongly) when one spouse just wants to get out of the relationship and needs some justification for being 'right', the 'good one'.

Hello Happy Peeps! Santa brought a Joe Satriani Live! at the Fillmore, DVD. Yaaah, very sweet!!!

"Backbiting" - knocking someone who isn't present. The nature of a discussion board is to discuss topics of interest. Here we have a perfect example. Political boards discuss things like, what...the Republican Party. Bush. The War in Iraq. Registering, voting. Music boards discuss Jimi Hendrix, Mozart, Gershwin. Food boards discuss food. Must all be present for me to critique them, not like them and/or have negative comments to make about them? Hint: No.

If it's books you need and want then it's books ye shall have! Amazingly, I have a book that addresses not only the issues of this thread, but the issues that are going to arise as a result of this thread. Read on to see how "Read This Book!" can help you! Written in the breezey style you've come to know and love and packed with insight, it covers most of the things that are going to come up here AND saves you time and money by NOT covering the things that won't - as you'll see when you buy the book, the information in it is so powerful it will cause changes no one can imagine now that will eliminate the need to address those things! It's almost like making money when you invest in the book! Stay tuned for information on how to buy the book! Sorry, I hope this isn't perceived as an effort to encourage anyone to buy that book, I'm just trying to give you the same advantages that those who have bought the book have. It would make it so much easier if everyone would and save me a lot of time. In fact, I'm even now calculating how it can be offered for an even cheaper price than the current FREE charge, by seeing if Paw will offer it as a one-time gift for new GS registrants. It's only fair - if you don't have the book, how can you intelligently discuss the contents of the book, which is pretty much going to be essential as all future threads are going to deal with the book anway, once we all have the book! That's right - see? If you'd bought the book you'd have known that was coming! Really!

Is this the GS Glee Club Jonny? Y'know, this whole thing reads like a pizza that's flopped off the back of a truck. In the rain. There are CES issues, personal issues, marital issues, doctrinal issues, etc. etc. All this stuff, and probably a lot more. It's crazy, reading about it from this view. Makes no sense and is so far outside of the realm of what I live it's like reading the back-story to Star Wars or something. Not that I'm perfect or don't have problems and difficulties, nope. But the people I trust and that help me when I need it don't have dreams about spiders crawling out of someone's nose or whatever. That whole thing's just too gross for words and if I'm getting it right, the fact that this bunch has people corroborating all of it with more dreams and prophetic messages is scarey. They probably don't think so, they seem to think directing their lives by someone else's nightmares is normal - in all honesty - why or how could I possibly look to those same people for clarification - they're the ones having and listening to each others dreams and prophecies. Blind leading the blind isn't some harsh 'spiritual' condemnation. It's a well worn piece of wisdom that fits many of life's situations. It certainly seems to wrap around what I've read here. ...a guy steps down from his position, is replaced by the husband of a wife who gives personal ministerial direction and marriage counselling based on dreams that are ratified by a board made up of suporters, and who later terminates his marriage considering guidance from the wife...who... Sorry. I'm not gleeful. All org's don't have problems like these. All org's don't entertain dream-prophecy as useful input. Some org's talk, communicate, pray about stuff, consider 'guidance' from their people and act reasonably intelligent, loving and meek. I have only a limited view into CES. From there, I don't think this kind of thing is normal-run-of-the-mill-everybody-has-a-bad-month stuff. My impression from their history - sooner or later CES would shoot themselves in the foot. My .02 cents. I wish it wasn't so. That's the way it reads to me. - IMO putting it on GS has value - although it's opening up all kinds of private personal things to the world, most of which is like me, not involved. Doing that and assumes something - that there's a good that will come from it. Trust me, I could have gone a long time without knowing anything about any of this, y'know? I can see some benefits already - --- those that are involved have a means of letting CES participants outside the immediate circle know more of an 'inside' story on what's going on and their concern. --- those involved now or from the past have a place to discuss it amongst themselves (with input from anyone else reading of course) --- a lot of varied and diverse views and opinions, ideas and suggestions, both critical and supportive. --- venting, and release of tension and pressure through expression. The last is important. Steam has to go somewhere. It's not enough to tell a pot that's boiling to stop. Action has to be taken to direct that energy or it'll boil over. The average person is, I think, perfectly willing to act honorably. Shutting people out or down makes it hard for them to do that.

Wow. Weird. I need a better context to put this letter in. I think this statement speaks loudly about the entire problem I perceive with "personal prophecy" the way CES handles it and the way John (and maybe all involved) think. I guess I don't understand the definition of true and false, as they're applying it. What does 'at least off track" mean? The falseness of theone group seems to be based on their disagreement with the second "other" group. Because there's more than one opinion being held forth - at least two? So how does anyone in CES put any trust in their 'personal prophecy'? If there's that much balderdash being slung, with what I'm sure is conviction. There's a huge gap between "obviously false" and "or at least off track". Stripped down it just sounds like two sides, one wrong because they disagree with the other. I think the letter goes nowhere in establishing what is right or wrong, true of false, and why John holds that opinion. Shoot, I'm weeping and wringing my hands right now and all I did is read the letter. I can't imagine how distraught John must feel - he wrote it!

Of course it goes on in churches. A-holz come in all sizes and shapes. One of the advantages of a "church" is Pastoring, or someone who works in that capacity and considers caring for people important. There's a little more one-on-one available in smaller churches too. If a person's been pretty beat up by something and really needs help , they will need to choose carefully, which can be difficult since they're vulnerable at that point. Family and close friends are the best support system. People you can trust to put your best interests first, or at least not to take advantage of you. That goes for anytime, though. I seldom use the 'cult' term at all, as it's too vague, general to me. Frankly I wonder if CES qualifies, really. I guess it could if it's considered the "son-of-a-cult" (and the Way has been stamped and approved a Cult in Good Standing by every reputable and licensed Cult Appraiser that I've ever heard of) , but for me, moi, my personal use, just my opinion, and all that - I would't consider CES a cult. Cults usually have a charismatic leader, right? That's one of the qualities that usually defines a Cult ® I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't think CES meets the criteria there. But maybe it does. Others would know better.

Mayonnaise! Merry Christmas!!!!

Merry Christmas everyone!!! I hope everyone has a great holiday. We're steering the Enterprise Sock to home base, with a planned excursion to a nearby settlement of family tomorrow. There is peace in the Federation and it's outposts! A Klingon Peace Pact has been signed, fragile but we have high hopes!!! All of our love to everyone. Be safe and warm!!!

Yah! Merry Christmas! I always felt, in my own little personal brain view, that the Way and the essence of what it did got confused after a time. It was 'biblical research and teaching and fellowship' and a 'ministry', which is a kind of service. The 'fellowship' part to it wasn't actually part of the 'service' purpose of the Way, it was what participants at all levels of interest did together. What it was not - an all-service, all-in-one, church. It had a specfic purpose, reason for being. That gave it a very flexible presence, in theory. The organized activities could change, everything about what people did that got involved could shape it, in there local 'fellowship'. In many ways, a greenhouse for supporting growth. Well, in theory. CES advertized itself as a Christian Services ministry. That automatically tells me what to expect and not expect. In both the Way and a CES, it would IMO be completely reasonable and expected for people to be able to be members of other churches or organizations and not have restraints placed on them of any kind. That lack of respect is so true. I got an auto shop to get a repair done. They do the repair, that's the service. Tire shop, buy a tire, They make recommendations. I decide, buy the tire. They do what they do but they don't sell me a car, insurance, issue licenses, design sound systems. They provide services and if it's good they're successful. If the mechanic yells at me for not rotating my tires and insists I'm a lousy driver and they're doing me a favor because they're the best in town, I don't go back. I expect them to do what they do, do it well and if they're 'nice', I'll go back. I think your point is valid. A lot of ministries say one thing, do another, and don't stay on target as to what they want to do. And if the service is bad, they don't change, they tend to defend instead of trying to improve. It's inherent in their 'real' purpose, which is to tell people what to do, where, when and how. Real learning that stands up to the promises is minimal after the initial contact is made.

Very nice! Thanks! Both are nice, and "Greensleeves" sounds so smooth. :)

:)

Hi Joe, I suspect those ideas I posted aren't new to them, and that the CES board members will do something along those lines. Getting rid of Mark G prior, to clear the decks, might be a good thing for them, I don't know, but.... Wouldn't it just set it up for a division, a split in assorted CES members to either side with Mark or individuals or TheRestOfCES? Booting Mark out could be just amount to more politicing. Again, I don't know how they function at all if they are, what level of honest communication there is if any, or if it's all just people siding up with each other at this point, endless phone calls where details get discussed only with those who agree with you but never with anyone who actually challenges their own individual positions - where the much-honored practice of "confronting" "sinful" behavior is simply blown off as accusations, gossip, lack of "spritiuality", and condemned? Kickng Mark out of his position won't do squat if he isn't included - that's my take on the limited information I have, all read here. I confess it's extremely naive at this point to think that it's possible for them to consider an outside neutral facilitator or arbitrator to hash out these differences, let alone actually deal with serious grievances and end up with any kind changes, if even now the people are shoring up their own positions in preparation for confrontation. But it's the only way that I know of (there may be others but I'm speaking for one opinion here and that's all) that could at least act as a catalyst to getting down to the nitty gritty on some of this stuff. I appreciate the inclusion, but I'm not really upset. As stated, I'm not a member of this church. My only connection is to some of the people, and have only past friendships with John L, John S and Mark G and his wife. I wouldn't know any of the rest of them from a can of paint. It's not that I don't care but if I hadn't read it here I'd probably have only heard of it in January and then from only some other non-member friends. Maybe. The people who have invested their time, life, heart and all whatever else into CES have a place in line, but not me. As Raf said somewhere around here, they owe me no explanation. As fellow clergy of the once-Way, I have a small connection with John L, but I don't think it appropriate to approach him on any of this specifically, other than if I felt inspired I'd let him know I support him. "Him", his life, his hopes and his dreams, whatever they are now. I'm on his side, yours, Mark's, everyones. I want the bad to stop and the good times to start rolling. But I would only open that line if I felt there was an interest, and only if it could act as a catalyst. I spill a lot of verbiage here but I don't expect it to do anything other than communcate with the fellow GSers, possibly anyone who else who peeks in would get some benefit, I don't know. I'm "here", they know it. I'm not hard to find. This is a good forum for discussion, there are others appropriate too. I won't say anything to anyone that can't be documented exactly what went on, if I feel even a hint of a possibility it will be misconstrued later. Most dyed in the wool members won't like my advice, if they're getting tanked up to dig in and go the distance with all of this. I suggest some of you get out of CES and it's influences, it's past, present and future. Clear the decks, get out. Don't even allow the possibility of some kind of negative feedback to come to you based on any BS prophecy, dreamt or otherwise, the attacks your integrity and well being. That's not giving up, it's building, taking a first step to the rest of your life, which someday will be much bigger than all of this, believe it or not. If you have friends or associations with people you want to maintain and they love you, those trusted relationships won't end. They might change, but if they're real they won't end. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to shred like this. I was in the Way 21 years and about 17 of those were spent not seeing some of the things I originally thought important flourish, in the Way. Some things did, some things didn't. The time came when I needed to step out and see if they could or would flourish elsewhere. I did, and they did. Or are I should say. Ain't done yet!

Thanks Joe. That clarifies that. It's too bad Graeser and the others feel the need to consult labor law to do their jobs. Obviously it won't be a 'friendly' environment if he has to invoke the law to keep his job and then go to work the next day. People do it, but there's going to be fallout from it, repercussions, if he and they go that way. It may get worked out to some degree of satisfaction, buuuuut something tells me their memory chips will be making backups of what's happened. Is it naive to think that people who operate as leaders of a Christian services ministry would be able to apply the 'law of love' and get results? On the surface it doesn't say much about the quality of the services if they can't and if that's the case. How can you expect anyone to listen to you if you propose the 'power of God' is living and real and you have to use back-door politics and legal fine print when push comes to shove? I may be jumping the gun but it sounds like business-as-usual. Pass the Maalox - God and mammon - it's what's for dinner. Hopefully everyone involved, all stakeholders in the CES paper, holdings, all of it - can and will sit down, lock the door and start talking. Everyone bring their list of concerns, make a list and prioritize the issues that get brought in, but making sure that everything that's been brought to the table is addressed. One way to do that effectively is to appoint someone to facilitate the gathering that's uninvolved but acceptable to everyone. First - establish a clear agenda - what's the purpose? What is going to be the end result? What are they trying to do? The first meeting might be to just air the issues, get them out and work up a document. Second - in the same meeting, prioritize - what's essential to the group, what HAS to be worked out and decided on to continue? Third, determine if anyone not present needs to be included. Include them. Fourth, pray for all concerned and meet the next day, immediately following, no break. I dunno - this is basic process and workflow stuff. Management concepts, etc. I'm not an expert, and frankly it might be more than they're ready to handle. But if problems need to be resolved and there's fires already burning, some kind of system and process needs to be established that both recognizes the issues and allows for resolution. - I mean - if they're at the point that attorneys are necessary to interpret how to protect one from the others, things are getting pretty low so it might help, might not - Keeping a job is secondary, really. It's likely that the real issues that come out of honest, loving discussion together will be entirely different than the ones that you start with. That's the deal with opening a can of worms, you have to be prepared to deal with whatever comes out and honestly try to determine what's relavant what isn't. And this isn't meant to appear that I'm either qualified or interested in doing this, as I have no dog in the house on this, no stake in it, no membership or anything of the kind. Just giving more free advice.

Yah brother!

Yah, dmiller. Things seem moderately normal now. There may have been too much tinsel in the wireless path. Usually it's pretty fast, no prob's. I still get a slight delay on this upstairs 'puter, but the downstairs Death Star is fully operational and moving along according to plan. It's just here on Naboo I'm getting the flim-flam. I must have seen an old picture of Liona, or else she's aging QUITE gracefully. Yeah, it's an old picture, I guess, at second glance. I dunno, These photos here from 2005 or so look pretty nifty. My wife's been blessed with "youth" genes. She looks 30 and she's, well, she's over 30. So I'm a terrible guage-r of age. I look 90 and I'm only, well, I'm only 30. But even for 90 I don't look right. Dunno. So it goes.

@#$%##!!!! Is it just my connection or is the internet being really tweaky today? Holiday traffic? It takes me several tries to get a post up and then a couple have just sat. Seems to be working - eventually. Anyway, yeah. Bluzeman, that other tune is very nice. I can't seem to get more than one reply going from PM, and then I have to joggle back and forth to get to another one. Happns on everything. Have to get my flashlight out and coveralls and get under the hood on my network, see what's going on. :unsure:

That classical stuff is nice, Evan. I don't follow Liona or Ana. What's the differences? Theyr'e both attractive, young, is Ana younger? Saw a photo of Liona just now on Wikipedia, and I like the way she holds that guitar too. They seem to play extremely well. I'm probably prejudiced as my daughter plays, but I think there's a big place for female guitarists. They're hands are usually well suited for the instrument, esthetically there's a fit there, musically, emotionally.

Yes, that tune is nice bluzeman, I'd like to hear more of that, if you've got it. Christmas songs are so well suited for different styles, and that's a cool one.

I can't think of anything better than's been said, LG. You characterize the best we could ever hope to be, posting here and allowing us to be here with you. I hope and pray you're here for a lot longer than is expected. I hope to see you again, however it is. No requests, brother but maybe a little candle in the window here - whenever that day should come, later than sooner I hope, if you should come to find out we've all got our panties in a wad the wrong way about life, and you can do anything to pass it back, we could sure use the help. You're an honorable man. God be with you brother! I look forward to reading anything you have to say here.

Yeah, I know, cool. Those two posts just bumped up next close to each other. :)

cman, I may be dreaming it but I think you've stated, in the big scheme of things of life, the "organizations" don't mean much and it's the people who do. That's what it's all about, isn't it? The more I read your posts the more I'm reminded of that, the simple common sense of the forest being the trees. Take care of the trees, and there will be a grand forest. From one tree to another, thanks, man. :)

The virtual word of the internet makes for interesting bedfellows, don't it? :) ck, you're absolutely right, on one hand. Absolutely wrong on another. What to do, what to do... If someone I don't know says they were fired from a job with a company I know nothing about by people I either don't know or haven't seen in over 15 years, and it's written about by someone who says they're them but I have no way of knowing if they really are, even the person who got fired, how would I know if it really happened at all? By the way, who did you say you were? I'm "socks". Now that we're old friends look at it this way - if CES has an internet site run by people who you don't know even exist (see above, etc.) and "they" (whoever they really are) dont post anything about something you don't know even happened, what would it mean if there WAS a post there? And what about that letter, yeah, that letter... If you don't take into account anything else that anyone has said because you don't know they exist and can't trust them if you allow yourself to consider they do, what do you do? Or not do? What if they do exist, but they're someone else entirely and working towards an as yet unstated purpose? What if none of this is real? What if you're the one that's not real and actually not even ck, but (fill in the blank)....? See? I do have a hobby.