socks

Livin' the dream!

I think you get Red Eye Gravy when the gravy's so good you just start hitting yourself in the face with your spoon. I first ate B's and G on the road, somewhere after a long van ride with the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Gravy Himself, Ted F. I'd had gravy and I'd had biscuits, but never in a combo like "Biskits 'n' Gravy". So there we were, ordering at a small truck stop restaurant and Ted took about 2 seconds to order after glancing at the menu - "I'll have the Biscuits 'n' Gravy!" I was still reading the greasy green "Specials" clipped to the front of the menu when it came my turn, or would have been I'm sure if there was one, and there's a better than average possiblity that if there was a menu there'd have been a Specials clipped on the front, so I'm pretty sure I was still reading it. Rather than come between the group and their orders any longer, I ordered the Skits and Gravy too. And I have been glad ever since that day I did. I never actually ordered them again, if memory serves, anywhere. Once was enough. I realized right then and there that I'd come mouth to fork with something special. Like a beautiful Trout seen swimming off in the water just feet from my lure, colors flashing in the sunlight, proud and strong, I had to let it go. I hauled my line back in. the better to let the fond remembrance of that Meal swim forever in my heart, where it still lives, hot, brown and beautiful. If you love someone, set 'em free, and I did. If I ever do meet that heavenly meal again I'm sure it will in a different land, under a different sky, as the song says. Any reasonable man would think the same, honestly, knowing what I know.

I suspect we did, waysider. I suspect we did.

Let's talk about your gravy. Never let it be said that I, socks, would deliberately stray from the clear cut path of a thread topic. First in, last out. It's Gravy Time! Gravy rocks, and I'm serious about that. Mashed potatoes - a pile of gray moosh without gravy. Nothing better than making a gravy volcano in a mountain of hot mashed potatoes, with smoldering butter floating around in the middle. Big swack of butter, doing a back stroke in a lake of gravy. Oh yeah. Turkey gravy has the best memories for me, childhood stuff. No matter what the economic climate there was always money at holiday time for a turkey, mashed potatoes and that Gravy. Big bowl of it. Throw in a big pile of Bisquick biscuits, some vegetables and Santa Claus is going to be late cus he's Gravying Up at our place. That's the STUFF. My Mom made killer gravy. Literally. Hearts would pound like sledge hammers after going a round with her gravy. No match, no distance, no legs after several doses of the stuff. Gravy is cool. A GRAVY THREAD!!!! I don't get out enough, that's clear.

Top 5 Ways to Make Sure You Got to Keep Your Class Stuff: 5. Wait until you're the last one standing in your city, get appointed "Limb Leader" and then quit. And move. 4. Relabel with titles like - "Little Bobby's 3rd birthday party". 3. Two words: "What tapes?" 2. Five Words: "My Leadership said it was okay!" And the number one way to make sure you'd have them forever: Rub every beta tape all over your body. Ewwww! Touched by a cop-out!!! You and your cootie-plattoon can keep 'em!!!!"

Thanks waysider. I would agree with that, to the extent that - IMRFHO - VP didn't join or subscribe to these groups publications as a supporter of agendas towards white supremacy. I'm not sure, literally, that the John Birch Society is clearly based on a "white supremacist" foundation that includes racism to the point it's actively purusing that other non-"white" races should be stamped out or relegated to a lower status. Others probably know more but I thought that the JB'ers were more concerned about the spread of communism and "big government". VPW clearly had a concern, even paranoia (IMRFHO) about the restrictive nature of government as one of the tools the "adversary" uses to hamper and divert people away from the path of God's intents. My way of putting it, but it's not an unreasonable concern. I think he found the kind of "insider" information he was looking for to give a view into what was "really" going on at times, and he looked at a lot of different sources. How reliable were they? I really don't know. Most of it sounded like "so what" to me. Still - he could pull a rabbit out of the hat at times. In the 70's there was a big truckers strike, I think it was country wide in effect. I know in California my family told me supermarket shelves were going bare at one point. A few weeks before the strike hit, VPW came in and was talking about planning for certain things and buying ahead "just in case". When the strike got going, Betty B, who ran the kitchen at that time, explained to us at lunch one day we were stocked up a couple months, so not to worry. I'd called my family early on to give them the heads up too. He never said where he got that idea, one way or the other, but it could have been through some of these kinds of sources. But he did openly speak out against rascism, particularly rascism against "black" Americans, while I was at the Way Nash, and never turned away anyone based on race, that I ever saw. Maybe someone else did. I vaguely remembered him saying once out in the Way Woods one night, when he was talking about society and the trends of the day, that if he was an "Indian", he'd be pi$$ed too, that Native Americans got screwed, regardless of what they believed or lived like and that being "different" wasn't cause for termination. "Otherwise, we'd all be in trouble here, honey!" hahahah. Anyway, that's my incredibly RFHO, for what it's worth.

S.O., I recommend not answering. I won't tell him why I share the same stupid "avatar" as you either. We should keep it a secret, if that's okay with you. Plus, if we tell LNM he won't be able to handle it and I'm sure his head would explode. Writing isn't a huge part of my job, no. Thanks for the compliment though! I think it is anyway, so thanks.

VP's "ties" to the John Birch propoganda and "white supremacy" - he read and received various books and newsletters in the 70's while I was at the Way Nash and talked about certain bits of information from them occasionally. He appeared to glom onto them as a source of information about the political climate and events in the country, ie "insider information". He was somewhat right wing, IMO, but not that much more than someone of his background and upbringing. I personally doubt seriously that he was a true "white supremacist" by definition, "a person who believes that the white race is or should be supreme". He was closer to believing that a true born again believer with an accurate knowledge of the "word" should be supreme.

5. Recent research into the word "steal" has show that it doesn't really refer to physical theft, but spiritual theft.

RP 350 - some user reviews What the Hey. Looks like a nice effects processor. I have tried one in a local store, briefly. Sounded good, through a small Crate amp they had set up. The going rate looks to be between 150 and 200.00 online. There's XLR outputs and USB, overall pretty versatile. Buy it.

Top 10 Reasons Classes Were Stolded or Tooken: 10. Thought "All Rights Reserved" meant they were - for me! 9. Couldn't get bogged down with all of that Old Testament legalistic "stealing" stuff. Hey, we're a family! Consider it a "loan"! 8. Too embarrassed to admit the "Date Checked Out" card got lost!

Sounds good walking, I'll look forward to hearing your progress and results, thanks!

Lessee, Jesus was a tall skinny guy with long hair. Blonde. A cross between Bucky Covington and James Taylor, definitely would have liked BBQ, but with a natural metabolism that would burn up fat calories quickly. ("that son of a gun can eat and eat and eat and never gain a pound!") In much the same way we see Harry Callahan in the old Dirty Harry flicks about to eat a hot dog or sandwich but just before he takes a bite he has to stop and shoot someone, Jesus probably never had time to eat much. Some fish, some bread, a little wine to wash it down. Probably invented the Personal Pita. Ate lots of Power Lunches but always had a nutritious breakfast. Mary would have raised Him to know that. ("It's the most important meal of the day, the Pharisees will still be there, eat!") Exercise - fuggedaboudit. Jesus invented the Walking Plan. Walked everywhere. What're we doing today Jesus? Walking. Best exercise you can get. Plus, He was a Carpenter, right? Plenty of hands-on work there. Tanned and toned. Plus He was tall, so if he gained a few here and there He carried it well. And robes are forgiving, either way. I'd guess about 170, give or take.

D-Derator, now that there's portable Terrabyte drives I think you're right. I think someone's already posted here at one time there were audio CD's of PFAL around. That could be totally wrong, but I could sw'ar it was stated. Someone might remember. It's probably a done-deal by now. CD's in nice little cases, stamped "The Way of Tangiers" or something, with an insert card stating "If you're blessed by this CD, let us know! All donations are tax deductible!" I think the topic speaks to how people felt about "the Class" and how they viewed what the Way was, to them. The sense of ownership, or "being" "the ministry". If some people felt like the whole sausage was going in the grinder they probably felt like they were doing a service to the future generations of the world by salvaging what was left of the essence of a Good Thing. Not all would agree on the goodness of the Thing salvaged, but think about it - while the Way was fine with redefining and violating any agreement based on their curent "Present Truth" they set the example for "their people". If anyone was watching and following they would have concluded that it was fine to do anything you wanted, change the rules as you go to suit whatever bee was buzzing in your bonnet that day. Don't explain anything, explanations are for those who don't have the guts to prevail. Now, the VPster himself would surely have taken umbrage at anyone strolling through the grounds and swiping a brick or a tree, or grabbing a duck off the pond for old times sake so I doubt he would have accepted copying PFAL or "liberating" a set or two of videos, regardless of the motivation. On the other hand, he himself concluded that the best way to deal with a system that didn't suit your needs or recognize your vision was to give it a good attitude adjustment with a stiff 2X4 and "make your own". Take what you need and leave the rest. What to do what to do - "ethics"...be still O throbbing spleen. It's a war out there, Dear.

Hi walking, I wondered the same thing reading it. It's hard to tell. It really seems like it would have to exert a lot of pressure on a warped top to pull it back into place. If the sides and top were solid and it's just the top warping it does look like a reasonable way to correct it. Innerestin'. Never heard of them before. The extra volume is a cool result too. at first glance it seemed like it would deaden it but I can see how it would add to it after reading through the site's description. Reminds me a little of touching the headstock of a guitar against a table or wall when playing, and the transfer of vibration makes it louder. Since you don't have to change anything on the guitar, it's worth a try. Plus I wonder if the top might not settle back into a flatter surface and correct itself over time...?

Well, they must be ice skating in heII tonight WW, cuz I do too. Feel the love, the sno-cone love! WG - if there's a heaven and if it allows for replays, maybe you'll get to relive the U of L incident again and use one of my favorite lines - "they're right here. Come and get 'em." (insert sound of lonely breezes blowing through the treeses as a solitary cricket chirps in the distance...) This is a verrrrry innerestin' topic. I have heard that any number of tapes and videos quietly made their way off the Way's grounds when no one was looking. Some of those items have surfaced, like music recordings, teachings, classes, you name it. Stealing is stealing, as already stated. But - butt - buuuut, if a person had waited around long enough and been at the right place at the right time, a lot of that stuff could have been scarfed up from the dumpsters anyway. Some things were getting tossed out by the ever zealous Douloses of Dumbdom. Other things I know were stored away in that big building, the warehouse thing where the offices were, the "new' place they built. Nobody even knew where some stuff was if you asked. As for peop's on the field - man, those were tough times. Oh I know some twigs were dancing in the meadows and boiling sweet potatoes and rhubarb and rubbing melons on their heads they were so happy but others weren't quite so fortunate. So some people took what they could get their hands on or had their hands on, assuming that the ham fisted Neanderthals in charge were just a breath away from stomping through and breaking anything close to their hearts and worth keeping. In a way it's the lesser of two evils. In many cases those who bore the Stamp of the BOT's and were promoted up from the Second Tier to "Leadership" positions to fill the many vacancies that appeared were fine with backing off and letting people go their own way. Challenged, they had all the backbone of a prawn, maybe less, but it was probably for the better and saved everyone the extreme ugliness that could have developed. It was ugly enough as it was.

No personal experience but the concept sounds reasonable. Read about it HERE

Good information. It doesn't surprise me he redid it - for whatever reasons or under whatever circumstances. It doesn't surprise me that he sells it, either. Or sold it at one time, here in the U.S. of A. It's no surprise either that he wouldn't put credit in the material as to it's source. Honestly, I've just seen so much warped thinking over the years from people who enter "religious" endeavors, efforts they claim God has called them to, nothing surprises me anymore. It's why I stay out of it for the most part. It makes "Shark Week" on the Discovery Channel look like "The Care Bears Picnic Adventure".

Glad you're still here! One of the more damaging effects of involvement in the Way for a lot of people has been that they end up disconnected, disenfranchised and downright unfellowshipped (if there's such a word and if there isn't there is now ) when and if they leave. Whether the reason for leaving is bad experience with other members or leaders, or disagreement with the teaching, or whatever the reason the net result is often that a person ends up feeling like they're standing in the middle of a big bustling Wonder Mall of life, people speeding by and about - and having the feeling of being all alone. Locating a church of fellow Christians that would accept you shouldn't be a problem, but as you say there are these differences in belief that separate us. Or we allow to do so anyway. On the JCING topic I'm more interested in what a person believes He is, who He is to them than what He isn't. I don't think the general garden variety discussion on Jesus Christ being or not being God usually gets much traction because it doesn't get off home plate, doesn't get down to the true details of how a person relates to Jesus Christ - as a savior? redeemer? Messiah? Teacher? Or what...? Who was He and who is He now, in relation to how I live and what I expect from life and am trying to do with the one I have? I've found with many Christians that they believe and think pretty close to how I do and in fact believe He's "God". Others - no-God, and we think very much the same way. Not in everything or every detail but it's not like we're completely on different planets with it. Which is interesting to me. I've had some great discussions and the net result is I really don't disagree with a lot of what goes with JCIG, although intellectually I don't believe that Jesus Christ could truly be called or thought of as "God", as a simple statement of fact and after defining who and what we think "God" is. Still many do stop right there - that statement of belief so often determines whether any of the rest of it matters. Meanwhile there's this extremely rich and dense quality of life that's being shared with the same Jesus Christ and God but a refusal to recognize it. I don't struggle with it - the learning and living of my faith is too much fun, too challenging, too cool, to get shlogged down in it. My attitude is to just keep on keepin' on and my prayer to God is that He'll understand. He knows me better than anyone, He knows what to expect. A little help here please! On a related note, I don't see myself as being "brainwashed" by the Way, or VP or whatever. I always knew who "I" was and my brain was engaged. I understand the concerns people have with that, but it was never one of mine and still isn't. I kind of viewed separating from the Way as a garage cleaning, where you take everything out and put it in the driveway. Liesurely, at my own pace. I've been very fortunate in that my wife and I have shared all our lives together since we were teenagers so we've been able to discuss everything and talk things through. That's a big plus and helps a lot in life overall, having or finding someone you can talk to who won't get weird with you no matter what comes up. In the end what you keep and take and set aside for future perusal is up to you. Be happy with it, it's your life, enjoy it.

Between what you posted but now I see and johnj, your post, the facts reside. I only have the memory of Geer explaining this - I want to say it was at the "Clergy" meeting in the Fall of - geez, memory's gone today. '86 or ''87, the "Geer had a gun" meeting that's talked about so much. The context was *before* Geer's POP piece, and was being cited as one of the problems the Way in Europe/GB had with the ever-downward-spiraling Way of New Knoxville, he said. He said the whole nest of problems with getting stuff reliably from the Way Nash was a source of ambivalence amongst the gang over there characterized as "those Yanks don't give a damm" something to that effect. So he worked it out to get rights to produce the materials locally without constraint, so they'd have the stuff they wanted. I never saw the written agreement, and only have the history to go by, of people getting those materials through The Way Over There and going around the Way New Knox'ers to get them, avoiding contact with the more toxic BOT's and their staff. During what LCM later called "the Fog Years" according to those who were there, God only knows what the BOT's promised, said, asked, agreed to or didn't. There was a point there if Geer has told them they should put on dresses and dance a jig while singing "I Shall Not Be Moved", I'm sure they would have started rehearsing. But piracy? Plagiarism? In the exWay context the only ones who *might* kick up dust would be the Way of New Knoxville, the current owners of the old family farm, buildings and the corporation. Rosaleez bunch. (I'm sorry I don't have the right brain cells clicked on to know or remember quite how to refer to all the playahs.) They would still be the clearest "owners" of the material in it's published forms I can think of. The Way of Europe doesn't "own" PFAL stuff, by the way it was described back then, just the rights to reproduce it at will and presumably make money off of it, of course. Despite the fact Geer may or may not credit VPW as the originator of the material he's using, those in the exWay community would, and they're the primary customers aren't they? There's a whole passle of people I'm sure who figure Geer's the rightful 'true" inheritor of the PFAL series, "spiritually", regardless of how he himself views it. The fact that he redid it, stamped his name on it and started charging money for it isn't really a surprise. He needed some income once he left/got the boot out of Europe. What better way than to pick the pockets of people who'd already paid for PFAL, a 100 times over? If they liked it the first time, they'll love it the second improved time. Plus, he had the whole "VP's Best Bud" thing going. 2 + 2 = Mo' Money, Honey. Still, if he doesn't it seems odd. But you can't have shoddy without some odd, so it figures I guess. Hopefully he's got out of the business of selling "God's Word".

Welcome! You make an excellent point. Amongst the never ending lineup of televangelists and assorted religious business enterprises hawking special "Christian" insight and the assorted claptrap (aka "income streams") that inevitably accompanies such swill, "honesty" is a word whose definition moves with the user and adjusts for conditions. But... I don't consider these generations of money-sucking tics a good basis for comparison unless it's to determine which one has the better marketing plan or tax-dodge going. I do highly recommend finding a local church you like, finding one by visiting several, as many as you like and once you find one with a pastor who seems honest and where you enjoy the activities and teaching giving them some time. I recommend reading the bible for pleasure and edification and having some friendships and hang time with other Christians. Learn to expect a reasonable amount of honesty from normal reasonable people who aren't trying to get you to buy something or make a committment to take a class or join their group. People interested in helping others.

Way back when somewhere around '86-'87, Geer stated in one of his "POP" dissertations that the Way of Europe was having trouble getting bookstore orders handled timely, everything was late or wrong coming out of the Way Nash, words to that effect. So he got the BOTee's to give TWofE rights to reproduce the PFAL class, syllabuski's, books, over there. I "think" this may have included all of the bookstore media the Way Nash of America produced out of their Christian Press business, I think... Vague as mud, bit it seemed like when a lot of the Way Nash of America (the New Knoxville affiliated bunch of Corps) started splitting off this was repeatedly brought up because those who ended up wanting to quit and end their dealings with the Way Nash of America were able in some instances to get the PFAL class, books and other materials direct from The Way of Europe, or Great Britain, or whatever Geer was running over there. From what I've seen and heard there's still a lot of those floating around, under whatever agreements were struck at the time between the American Corps and Way Nashers, and Geer. I don't even know if there's still an official "Way of Great Britain" or something that's related to Geer's business over there in the 80's, but I'd think if there is they still have the same rights to sell stuff to Americans. All of which allows the European Connection to provide PFAL materials and Way books to Americans without having to go through the New Knoxville corporation. Don't know how they money is split up, but I'd think it all stays in the European hands but I don't know. That's all reprinting of existing stuff and sales and distribution of it. The stuff about Geer's "new" class resembling and being note-for-note renderings of VP's stuff would be different. There's no question to me or surprise that what Geer produced would closely resemble VP's stuff and probably be word for word in parts. PFAL is the basic word track he would have worked from, I'm sure. Based on Geer's slavish attitude to PFAL and VP it would make sense that he'd only change what he felt VP would have wanted changed or intended to change "if he'd had time". Which is really a b***s### discussion, the whole "if there's been time" baloney. There was time to do other things. The Way was a "reasearch and teaching" ministry. 1000's of people were devoting countless hours and life's energy to involvement with it. The PFAL series and related materials WAS all the ministry really had for it's base of outreach year after year. If VPW had really wanted to change it, he could have. I'm not saying he didn't say he "wanted" to work on it or do this or that with it, the Advanced Class, all of that. I'm just saying if he was too distracted or lacking in energy to work with the many people around who could have helped make it happen, it's his own fault, plain and simple. He "blew it" baby, nothing more or less. It was his thing, he should have done what he thought right if it was that important. To the ex-Way audience who longs for this stuff I'm sure there's no "piracy" of VPW's material going on. There's a big warm and fuzzy discussion that's out there amongst the exWay Nash lifers that look to "ownership" of PFAL's legacy as some kind of "spiritual" issue, belonging to the "true" believers. The Way Nash of America in New Knoxville probably doesn't care one way or the other - why would they? They don't actively promote PFAL in it's original version as a product they sell or profit from. If they're not losing any money they don't care I'm sure. they know they can't pursue every copyright claim they might choose to challenge with all of the Way of Europe/Great Brtain copies floating around. If they could address a specific situation cheaply I bet they would, just out of meanness, spite. But they lack the interest and funds to mount an all-out shake down.

I read the first post and figured this was your point, but I'm glad Jim asked for clarification. Is it obvious that America "may" be an illusion, or are you saying that it's obvious that it "is" an illusion? An illusion of what, would be my next question? Of what it is, or how it's perceived. Next question would be what do you think it "is", or perceive it to be? I think you may be jumping to conclusions, or that "a lot of people everywhere", may be. I do agree, the roads, bridges here have been under tremendous use and stress over the last 50 years. I also think most of the world would like to be able to solve problems, basic and advanced before they happen. That's a big "duh", isn't it?

Ex, you reminded me of a teaching I heard awhile back on the use of "Rabbi" in the gospels, and the number of times Jesus was referred to as Rabbi, Teacher, etc. Jesus was certainly viewed in that context during His life. When asked where He'd learned what He taught, it seems that was the context. As a Teacher with followers, who was His Rabbi, the one He'd learned from? If someone were asked that question in our society and they said "God", hmmm, that might be viewed as suspect. The way, truth and the life...if He provides a way, access as it were, there should be at the least a growing awareness and appreciation for where He's taking us. If it relies on some understanding of certain choice verses, that seems counter productive. Not that there aren't choice verses to understand, that open the understanding. But how many verses does it take to get there? ("Are we there yet?") If the bible tells of a Messiah to come, and the people that looked for Him and lived towards His coming....and then tells of His coming, and then of those who followed Him afterwards.... Then there's really only one message. It can be told many different ways, but the ending's always the same in this book. If we got a new car and drove to Disney World and had a blast getting there, but stayed in the car when we got there - all those rides would go to waste. :) ("the brochure says it's really cool in there...!)

A study group we joined had some ex-Catholics in it. My wife and I were raised Catholic. I found quickly that Catholics aren't viewed too favorably within this group of people. To their credit, there's care given to balancing judgment against understanding, but when you get to some things the opinions are clear. While we don't disagree on some of them I found it kind of odd that the disagreement was, as you say, cause to prevent a couple of these folks having much of a close relationship with the relatives that are Catholic because of what they believe. Now, it sounded like in that case it was the RC's avidly promoting their beliefs on the non-RC's, because the non-RC's have strong Christian beliefs that aren't Catholic. I think it revolved around recognizing Mary as a Mediatrix between humanity and God or something. But it seemed like it could go both ways and probably did at times. When we mentioned we'd been raised Catholic, I guess it was assumed we'd jump on the bandwagon, which we were slow to do. While we don't subscribe to much of the RC doctrine today, we do recognize that our first exposure to Christ was through the RC church. I'll discuss the pro's and cons and disagreements I have, no prob, but I'm not quite ready to sack the whole gang south. So when we were told "but you didn't get born again in the RC church" and we said "oh yes, we did, we accepted Christ" they looked at us like we'd grown a third eye in our foreheads. Never mind that I'm sure their RC relatives wouldn't see us anymore favorably than them, so we're kind of on the outs with both sides if taken to task on points, I'm sure. I think the others who only knew what they'd heard about RC doctrine weren't sure, but the other former RC's didn't seem to buy that we'd been able to be "saved" as Catholics. Knowing how different it can be for different people I didn't bother pursuing it other than to state belief in Christ as savior is the basis for being a Christian. There was some discussion about Christ having to be a "total savior" but they didn't really know what they were talking about to put it kindly so I didn't mess with them, figuring there'd be more time over the year and there has been. What's strange though - while they could be absolutely sure, no question about it - that RC's are hell bound, there's a whole range of other things they do feel they know for sure that they can't clearly articulate or explain, but they know they're right about. So some things are "just wrong" and others "just right", even if they're not clear on why. But their reasons are biblical, of course. They're very nice people and I'm sure if they were on a desert island stranded and a boat of Rosary-bearing Catholics showed up in a boat, they'd hop right in. That's the beauty of it. We talk and we talk and we talk. And then we live, and it all comes out in the wash. Or you learn to love coconuts. Why do we turn into such hard cases? Dunno. I guess when we feel something's right and there's a lot riding on it that turns into caring about the welfare of others...? Or we're just jerks and have to be right. There's that side of it too.