socks

That's a stretch alright Dan! I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure. But those aren't the only factors to consider, and not the primary factors necessarily. I see at least three elements - God, us and "everything else", some of which we surely don't know anything about. Our own current involvement and conditions, while important, may not reflect the other things to a "T". To not allow God to be more than what we understand is rather, hm, limiting. I look at the time element because it's how we see existence, our awareness has a beginning and and end. It makes sense that within those constraints we could view a larger picture that runs before and after, but being grounded in a beginning and aware of our own end we could only understand somewhat that our portion of life, existence is a measurement of something much greater. The bible certainly seems to point to what that is, "eternity", a God who's already "here" at the "beginning" and Who would have no end. Currrent conditions tend to change, evolve, deteriorate, reform. That doesn't mean that God's nature is the same. Sunesis, that's my own brand of Christianity, "Chaos Christianity". It's my label for man's Church. Membership is small. One per building!

Goodness! Well, thank you ChattyKay and thank you all. I do appreciate it! 57 - yup! Hard to imagine. So this is what it's like? I'm glad I'm married to a younger woman with lots of energy. She's 55! Heee! That photo - yikes. Name those peop's! Thanks again. I get the same present every year. My daughter was born same day. :)

:) sirguessalot, that works if we view time the way we view distance, and the passage of time, distance travelled. Like a 100 mile stretch of road, viewed from overhead, from the air. It's possible to see the entire distance at once, and everything that happens between the two points. A snapshot would show everything that happened at that moment. It would be possible to travel the entire distance in a single moment if you were in a car that was a 100 miles long. You wouldn't even have to move, just turn on the key and you're "there", be it the beginning of the stretch, end, or any point along the way. If God inhabits eternity literally, that could be the way God experiences what we call time. We experience it in iterations, instances, events. Moment by moment sequentially. But that's perception, time appears to really be a total quantity. Like, an hour is an hour, a total amount of time, measured. God being "God", He may experience it completely at once. That follows your line of thought I think - God exists in the "present", but in a state where the present is hmmm...very very big. Dunno, it's a line of thinking I tweak at, now and then. If that's the case, and it's just an "if" and very meager stab at the topic of what God knows - God knows everything. It's as if to say, God's God. It's could be described as less the result of an intention and more the result of being God. God could then say exactly what's going to happen, within the range of endless possiblities we live in where "all things are possible". All things ARE possible, and known. If you're God.

Multi-purpose joke, usable for all races, groups, sub-groups, offshoots, splinters, cells, creeds, beliefs, you-name-it: Q: What do you call 10 skydiving {enter group name here} , jumping out of a plane? A: Skeet.

Familia, waysider! Whoa!!! Now we're looking at the wayback machine! But a committment's a committment. No familia was planned and none will be provided, although if brought, it will be allowed, if shared on the Plurality Plate. Scribble! It's the new Word game! Larry, glad you liked it. To add, I think that while reliance on Gracious living is essential, there's a side of all of life's benefits that require effort. Basically, we gotta do the work. Or at least look busy. Things drop in our laps, go our way, flow towards us and away from us and all I can do is be thankful. But if I sit around and wait with high expectations, that isn't being fully engaged in life, I think. Life isn't a point and shoot kind of thing. There's some setup, tear down. Shipping and receving. Work. Good ol' fashioned effort. Adjustments being made, fine tuning. Like harmony in the home. After 36 years of marriage, I'd say that takes some effort. You have to put your back into it, figuratively speaking. I can't point to a class as the cause of the result. But there was some information that helped, I can say that.

So, how'd it go on your end revvel?

A have one, I have one!!!!! Okay, this barely qualifies, but at least it'll get us started. It will actually illustrate, without question and beyond the shadow of any doubt of any kind by anyone, anywhere, ever, that it's an anecdote. (ahem) It was about 1971, and a bunch of us including my cute fine girl friend and later to be wife were commuting over to Mill Valley, California from the East Bay for an Advanced Class session. We'd prayed before leaving, the usual stuff, and since we were driving we thanked God for a decent commute, as there's a lot of commuter traffic around them parts around 6 pm. So we took off and along the way, the girls had to make a pit stop so we pulled into a gas station. As a couple of us sat in the car waiting, I got a distinct feeling to look under the car. That's what it felt like - a feeling. Look under the car. Actually get out, look under the car. Okay. So I did and lo and behold, there was a steady drip coming down from the back to the ground. I crawled up under and found a good sized ding in the tank, must have been something that hit it, and there was a leak there. I went into the garage and asked the mechanic if he'd look at it. He did and said yup. That's a hole alright, and you've got a leak. So he said, if you don't want to stop and fix it now, try this - and he went inside and got a bar of soap. Brought it back and a rag and told me to rub the area clean and then quickly push the soap bar up around into the hole, and plug it. Do it hard and fast, and it'll block the hole. So I did and it did. He said we'd be fine to get where we're going, but check it later. He gave me the bar of soap, and I got some gas. So we prayed again and took off. Everyone was excited. Wow! Cool! Had to be revelation! How'd that work, what happened? I had no big story to tell, just a kind of dumb look - dunno, I just felt like I should look under the uh...car. Now, that's how "the law of believing" works, to my mind but really I wouldn't call it that so this anecdote might be misplaced. I'd describe it as general state of graceful normalness where the direction you're going in or need to go in gets a little help along the way. We were "believing" but if I factored in the number of times I haven't had a feeling like that and something went wrong, I come to the conclusion that generally, the "law" is simply that the potential is always there for good to happen and a good outcome to be in play - but I can't explain how or why in every kind of circumstance. If there's a "law" it's the Law of Expectation. Maintaining an expectation for life to go well and that I will have what I need.

All I can say is, I prefer the Lou Rawls icon O_man. I think it was in one of the Green Card benefits - "will make you sing line one bad mutha". May he rest in peace. Lou baby was The Man. The Voice. "Tobacco Road" - fuggedit. "Lady Love". He was off the chart. We want Lou back!!! Green Card benefits. Okay, some semblance of Thread sanity. It was a registration card, and sales device. I did realize most of those benefits, over the years. To say otherwise would be a lie. I feel strongly that PFAL itself did for me, in it's day, a great deal of good. But going back to the first "class" I took and the next couple years, the Green Card claims weren't anything of consequence. I didn't come into PFAL looking for promises on a card to be delivered. I wanted to learn about the bible, and I did. Over the years I came and went on the card claims. They seemed limiting in a way. But the process was to register, and the card was the registration card. I now use a "Blue Card" for Socks SignUps. I find blue does much better at communicating the kind of cool cha-cha that the Socks Class for Big Living will bring to those who attend and apply the knowledge. But that's just me.

I was wondering the same thing waysider. Faeries or fairies? If they're your garden variety San Francisco spank-my-tush-and-call-me-Nancy fairies, or the fun-loving kind of fable and yore. Speaking of which bliss - I bet you'd love this movie if you haven't seen it - Photographing Faries A poignant, sometimes sad but very exhilerating movie. The cinematography is great. On the children - I think you'd be wise to talk to your kids (if you haven't) about where you stand on the topic, primarily from the standpoint of defining how you see the devil and "devilish" influences. At least so they're not left thinking the devil may come in their rooms and try to hump them or something. Seriously, we've had friends who would get spooked at all kinds of completely benign things - we let our kids know how we felt. Namely, we're good people, we do believe that God blesses us and protects us as a Father and while there's evil in the world, we don't have to fear it. Anything gets in our rooms uninvited late at night will end up on the sidewalk for the police to pick up what's left. I never let them get off into the boogie-man mindset about the devil. F-him and anything that seeks to put a hurt on me or mine. That's my motto. F'rinstance, we never taught our kids about Santa Claus, being good or bad or godly or devilish or anything of the kind. Santa Dude was similar to a cartoon or movie character, entertainment. Along the way our kids picked up from others and TV, etc. that Santa Clause was kind of presented as a "real" person. The idea of giving to others to make them happy isn't a bad idea, overall. Now our son thought "really????" Cool, no way!!?? A guy brings stuff once a year??? Toys!? Where do I sign up!!!? Our daughter was creeped out by it. An old guy sneaks into our house at night? When? We don't have a chimney in Florida, how's he get in? So the idea of leaving cookies and milk out was a mixed gesture on her part, didn't make sense. Go to the door, Dad will let you in, leave the toys, beat it. So we explained gently to them that all was well, but the idea was warm and fuzzy if you didn't take it too far. Nothing wrong with it, but no, that's not why they should be good all year. On another note - the topic should also cover "angels" if we're talking about spirit beings of whatever stripe. Why's the devil get free reign but angels just stand by and watch? Doesn't make sense, in context. I thoroughly enjoy Tolkiens books - they're stories. Good and evil, big message stuff, plus exciting characters. Nazgul. Hobbits. I don't see the big deal. It's entertainment.

Hmmmm.........the mind wanders......hmmmmmm....hm.... :) Appropriate penance must be applied, with purpose, vigor and enthusiasm. Eyes off that book! Hmmm.....

There may be no hope... But count on some penance...s...

Wherever Garcia is, I trust he's discovered "intonation". And taken it to heart.

Establishes and maintains a positive attitude PFAL got me starting to think about atitude and it's effect on my overall life. The idea of a "postive" attitude wasn't new, but I was young when I first heard the PFAL teachings around that. It was definitely a beginning for seeing attitude as something that was shaping my actions, what I was doing and how I did it. makes life meaningful I would have to say that the teaching in PFAL helped to make my life more meaningful, in that it expanded my understanding of "who" I was. As a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ, Christ Himself was more of a "person of interest" for me, prior to hearing PFAL. By that I mean, I couldn't quite place Him in my life clearly and consistently, although I think I'd wanted to. PFAL helped in that regard through all the records in the bible that were read and studied. The act of opening up the bible and reading it with some focus and direction had a huge impact on me. I had done that some but it was the concentrated effort that had impact. Overcomes worry and fear Overcoming worry and fear are probably two of the biggies - what really happened was I got some tools, some ideas, some references, basically a means to see how things like worry and fear could be dealt with. Promotes prosperity and health Health was another biggie, if only that the idea of being healthy and whole as a Godly goal was invigorating to read about. Explains apparent bible contradictions It goes without saying that PFAL dealt with how to read and study the bible. Contradictions - I'd probably see it today as more of a very basic starting point. I don't think it completely made the case that by following a specific regimen of study I can explain things in the bible that seem to contradict each other, other information or that are just plain difficult to understand. But I think it made a good case within itself to say that if you want to understand the bible, the effort to do so will produce fruit. Develops more harmony in the home I always got a kick out of this one. As time went on, some of the scheduling for classes did anything but that, mostly they disrupted harmony at home, all the coming and going and struggling with arrangements to keep to a schedule. I didn't see a great deal of that myself, I think it was really up to each individual to take away this or anything from PFAL, and use it to benefit in their own lives. Enables you to seperate truth from error Again, within itself it produced methods for doing that. Disciplines the mind by believing Coulda been. I guess a disciplined mind is a good thing, although too much of a good thing can be, well, not so good. Teaches how to pray effectively. In terms of speaking in tongues and the presentation, it was a little.....stiff. The ending of the class was handled so secretively by some people - like "no questions! wait till the end!" then you get to the end and suddenly after days of sitting still and not asking questions, the emphasis shifts and you're being asked to participate. It wasn't quite right, but for my "first" PFAL it wasn't like that at all. I knew all about what was "in" the class before actually taking it, and it was very natural. But it could be very unnatural if handled like some big secret. But speaking in tongues did come full-face for me in PFAL. I think the best thing about PFAL wasn't what happened in PFAL, although I saw and participated in some very cool things in PFAL. The best thing - could be if allowed - was what happened later, as the information was explored and worked with in different ways by different people. Viewed properly I don't think "PFAL" is the big deal, it's the source material and how it opens up for a person. I disliked when people would pester others about these benefits - kind of a "didya, didya? Didya, huh????" I mean, come on. Let's show some cool here. Let things happen, let people enjoy the discovery for themselves and in their own ways and times, and if they don't, don't make them say something out of pressure. If and when a person receives any of those benefits, if they did, their story is now theirs to live and tell. In a way PFAL would work itself out of a job, and wouldn't be something that a person would go back to over and over and over and over and over and over. At some point enough's enough, if you "got it" you got it. Life has to move on and upwards.

No kidding! you get socks in your pants, you're gonna be smiling! Oh my. Well, glad y'all had fun! Nothing like a little City by the Bay and some wine to go with it! I did see a news story about a group of women taken into custody - something about "Indecent behavior in public involving a statue", not sure what that was about, but apparently parts of the statue still haven't been recovered....

Although I'm Not-The-Oaks, I thought I'd quote a Bramble line or 2 - I think that's so basic and so true, it's often overlooked, even when I try to maintain that attitude.Two people looking at the same thing don't have the same vision, literally. They're different. If they agree they're still two different renderings of the same thing, individually owned. Two people look at an animal. One sees a bird that flies. Another sees a meal. It's still a bird but what it means is completely different to the two people and causes completely different interactions. When we say "God" we can't even define that as clearly as a bird, so I have to think the range of responses would have to vary. The field of vision is too big. There may be an aspect of God I never even fully see let alone articulate, whereas someone else does. To me, an "atheist" would be someone who looks and doesn't see what I see. If I say "bird", they might say "nothing, no bird". That's a very simplistic description, doesn't really cover it well, but that's kind of my take. It's a fascinating idea to me, as long as the Bird/No-Birds allow for free range living.

This is truly amazing, to quote Invader Zim! Truly! Here it is hotter'n' a Hoagie in high heels and the topic of the Butt Sock surfaces! Read on, excoleena and KevMan! relief is on the way! One of the effects discovered from wearing the wondrous Butt Sock has been heat rash. Needless to say this was a disturbing discovery, in more ways than one. To find out that the healing can cause the healee to rash up and itch like the dickens has sent the staff of Butt Sock University back to the drawing board to find a solution. And now - it's here!! The Buttless Sock!!!!!! That's right - everything you've come to expect and rely on from the Butt Sock, without the sore Butt!!! Kiss it goodbye! Needless to say, we were thrilled to develop this truly All-Weather Solution for our customers. We're not quite ready to bring this baby to market yet, but I felt it would be wrong to not get this out here, now. Imagine the cool relief the Buttless Sock will bring to you the wearer, not to mention the envy of your friends and associates when they see you Buttless! You'll be cool, cool cool - no butts about it! Of course, this enhancement will be provided to owners of the Butt Sock who feel they require the extra freedom and pleasure that Buttless can bring - at no charge, to anyone, ever! Not a dime will be accepted as payment! Modest shipping fees are all that will be required to bring this B.S. to your door, and we've discounted that to the crazy low amount of 59.99, USD. Not to worry! Your Butts and your comfort are all we care about!!!!

I have feared for many years that I'd lose my good looks as I get older. Hasn't happened yet. Just the opposite. I have believed diligently for years for my IQ to drop 10-15 points, just to even things up with some of you geniuses here. Hasn't happened yet. If anything, it's going up. I am walking living breathing proof - ain' no such thing as dat dere deal believing, dat danged ol' thing a muh dag dabbit, now.

skyride and dmill, if that makes sense, hope so. Believing is taught as a "law" in and of itself for producing "results" - there's really no question about it and I'm always surprised this discussion cycles up and around so often. In session 1, it's the only thing that ol' unbeliever has to work with. The way I've tried to write it there is the way PFAL presents it. Other stuff is taught right up front too - the "5 things" to know if you're going to receive anything from God. Knowing what's available, etc. As Oldiesman says, that all deals with applying "believing" to the promises of God. But the LOB is taught as something that an Unb. or Bel. "operates". Saint and sinner alike. Curse God, praise Jesus, do what you like, if you believe, you will receive what you believe for. Jesus Christ Himself could be giving 100 dollar bills away on the street. The Unb. doesn't need 'em! They're believing will get them what they need. Sinners don't believe the promises of God to get their 'bundance. They apply this LOB independent of any bible stuff. That's the point in PFAL - if an Unb. knows this principle, this law, they can manifest a better life than a Christian can. Abundance is available, you just need to know how to get it. This answers the question VPW poses. So - without casting too much religious cloth over it, the system or law of believing as johnj states, is "atheistic", if I don't get too philisophical about it and take it straight up as PFAL teaches it. Obviously - at least to me - VPW doesn't spend a great deal of time focusing on what and how an Unb. might do that, the focus in PFAL is on the bible and what the Christian believer does. So in that way I do agree with Oldiesman, to say that it teaches a Law of Believing as an end in itself and stop there isn't what PFAL does. It's taught as the means to an end, but one that can be known and applied with or without the bible, God, or what have you. Beating the ol' gray mare to death here - if you look at the belief/unbelief part of PFAL, and Raf's statement about "reverse" believing, it's confusing in PFAL there too. Belief/Unbelief describe something you do, or don't do you would think. Positive believing and Negative believing (fear) would be the same thing, applied differently. It's not a "reverse". Fear and Faith are really taught (I think) as being equal force, effort applied towards something. IE - I want something to happen and I wrap around a process that produces it - postive. OR...I want something to happen and I wrap around a process that doesn't produce it - negative. But then unbelief is described as either not knowing enough to believe correctly or not choosing to believe correctly. Now we're back to defining the believing in relation to what we know and choose to believe - the bible. So negative believing isn't really unbelief by the definitions being given, if the believing is a principle that doesn't requre any knowledge or belief in God, the bible or any of that. VPW would have done better to skip the whole business of believing and simply taught John 10:10, and what it means, IMO. The receiving comes along in it's own way, in the context of the new life in Christ.

Law of believing. I think some of the confusion about it develops around the way PFAL opens. In session 1, VPW talks the abundant life. He states that when he looked at the world around him, his community and the people in it, the "unbeliever" often manifested a more abundant life than the believers. John 10:10 is the foundation presented for looking at the abundant life. In it Jesus states that He came so that people could have life, and have it more abundant. For the purpose of PFAL and the bible teaching that follows, John 10:10 and Jesus's statement sets the direction for where the class goes. Jesus came to bring life, more than abundant. So if that's why He came, if that's His purpose, why is that so many Christians manifest a life that's not abundant, that's less than that? The answers are several - lack of knowledge, understanding, and choosing to believe what the bible teaches. Adverse conditions exist that work against the Christian that can be corrected by knowing what the bible teaches, understanding it, and believing it to the end that they receive it "into manifestation". God's will for the Christian believer to manifest a more than abundant life is to believe in Christ, understand what that means to us todayby rightly dividing the Word, the bible and then doing something with it, and about it. Believe it. Which is all fine, but the comparison that's made to the unbeliever muddies the water. An unbeliever has the same avenues open to them to receive the more abundant life in Jesus Christ and to manifest it - by believing in Christ, learning and believing what the bible teaches rightly divided, and doing something with it and about it. Whether I'm an unbeliever (in Christ) or a believer (in Christ) the answer's the same. So....why for the what for, say ye? Believing in and of itself doesn't do the unbeliever any good if the don't believe in Christ and the rightly divided Word of God. So if they're manifesting a more abundant life than the Christian, the cause isn't the same, per PFAL. In fact, following that logic, I don't think you can correctly say that the quality of life of an unbeliever COULD be more than abundant. So there's no comparison to be made that's equitable. The unbeliever - by "believing" - can't manifest a more than an abundant life in Christ. Their believing wouldn't produce any results towards that. If the abundance is "stuff" - cars, homes, job, relationship, happiness, joy and things that can be measured - and it's manifested by believing, it has to be in something other than Christ. So the comparison goes flat. By rights, a Christian should never look at those things as measures of abundance received. If I do, I can - apparently - receive them by my "believing" and have nothing to do with the Christ or bible part. Capiche?

Ain't it the truth. Growing up on this stuff. I remember so much of this stuff, and the Duane Eddy clip is an early gem! Although he's gone now, he had a long and successful LIFE AND CAREER. And the Pyramids had shaved heads! The better to cut those musical waves! Add a little echo and some twang, and people were surfin'!

Delicately in tune, pret' near, the Pyramids answer to Pipeline! Penetration!!

Mel Taylor san! The Ventures version kicks! All these years on, The Surfaris... Odd behavior, at the beach! Erratic arm movements! Bikinis! Striped shirts! Pointy shoes! Hoolah hoops! This has it all!

Glad you guys're diggin' it. Just a whimsy, for a Labor Day listen. :) Nay-ru! Pass the naughahyde!

Snappy's the word, and chcks in the early 60's dug snap and cool threads. Is it any wonder "clean" was an early word for "cool"? That's really clean, man!

Agreeing here with someone, although I'm not sure who but - Jesus clearly directs prayer to God, the Father. The attitude to God in "prayer" is, to my understanding, to the Creator, the Father, the giver of life and provider of what life contains. A "relationship" or "fellowship" with Jesus Christ would be something everyone who wants to be a Christian should desire and pursue, as well as recognize. I say recognize because God has a will, an intent and purpose, for Jesus Christ, and that to be "Lord". If God wants us to have a Father/Child relationship with Him, and Jesus Christ has that same relationship with God, as well as the unique position of being "Lord" amongst all, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to develop that relationship with God and Jesus Christ without getting the two confused. I wouldn't "pray" to Jesus Christ in the sense of recognizing Him as God. God's will to me is accomplished by Jesus Christ. God "wills", Jesus Christ "does". I think to ask Jesus Christ in prayer for something He was sent to do is a little confusing, or at least the way I see it coming at us from the bible. It's much simpler and seems to flow with how Jesus Christ Himself spoke and acted by seeing that He shared fully as the "son of God" in God's divine nature, more than a "perfect" or Extra AAA High Grade man so to speak, and the actual "son of God". Jesus Christ is identifiable, God is described by the qualities he exhibits - creator, giver, light, love, etc. God is never identified completely in the bible, really, when you think about it. It's impossible to articulate, but we can see what He does and understand His "will" by what God does, and when it's spoken or written. Or lived, as we see in Jesus Christ.