socks

Weeeeeell, the issue of concern isn't some old guy's opinion about what makes for vibrant sex, or what he does in privacy alone for that matter - it's illegally and immorally taking advantage of others using the authority of their rank and position including underage boys and girls, in an organization that essentially sanctions and protects that activity. The way in which the RC's have built their societies of men and women "of the cloth" is a disaster, it's a plan for failure. Even if you just took what's in the N.T. and just applied that to those who wish to pastor, teach and carry on the work of the church as lifetime commitments you would be encouraged to not create circumstances that produce pressure and difficulty, you'd be encouraged to create those which make it manageable and useful.

I wouldn't get hung up on the date, I think his context is it being an early written codification, an ecclesiastical effort of the coalescing "Catholic Church", formal, clerical, non-liturgical, as a synod/council in a Roman province, in Spain - my impression of those earlier settings were that while provincial they did have some authority and laid the groundwork for the later councils. Paul makes reference to saying things "by permission" and having "an opinion", and I think we should see that for what it is. Some of it is informed advice from a caring pastor for his growing church communities and the extended affairs of life. Celibacy and matters a person chooses related to marriage and sex are matters of choice, with some guidance as we see here. If someone wishes to go that route, go for it. A guy like Paul makes it sound like not being married will free a person up to devote their time, their lives to God. For those whom that works, they're free to go for it. For those who don't want to do that there's a full life for them too. Paul's ideas and opinions in this are are informed and the product of his knowledge, experience and general benevolence for the people he felt responsible. It shows when he wrote things like "But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away."

Me three, Rocky.

Psalm 139 always speaks to me, from many different angles. I'm posting below. Psalm 139 begins to paint the picture for me of a very basic idea in regards to who God "is" and what it means to say "I believe in God", and that is that God interacts me and the world I know in a way that is above good and bad, light and darkness, right and wrong...in fact, what is right is what God wants, likes, thinks, says it is. It is what it is because that's how God says it is and from that point, anything that God declares is the starting point from which any logical or reasonable outcomes are produced. As I consider this Psalm I'm reminded that God is indeed "with me", at all times and is the one, true presence in life. My own ability to choose, to know and to understand can be most easily understood by seeing God as both Creator and Father. 139 O Lord, you have searched me and known me! 2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. 3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. 5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it. 7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! 9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, 10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,” 12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a] Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! 18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake, and I am still with you. 19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me! 20 They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain. 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? 22 I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts![c] 24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting![d]

Celibate - isn't that that new arthritis medication? I would say that the RC's have re worked the teaching of the New Testament to come up with their own piece of doctrine. The N.T. including the Gospels doesn't lead anyone to believe that the normal state of a male or female disciple of Christ is to not be married or to not have sex. It just doesn't. Jesus wasn't married, but He never needed to be. I suppose one could wrap some humor around the idea that He was tempted in all things including getting married...but resisted! But aside from that, we don't get any real inference from what He's recorded to have said that He taught that His followers shouldn't be married or have children. Reading Timothy and Titus it all reads as if married and family life is considered for those who want to have a role in caring and working with the other followers, the Church. Remember too, it's considered a "sacrifice", something that is being given up and denied. That being the case it may not be wrong or bad but we don't really know that in a way that would lend us to think it's a worthwhile practice, and is even discussed by Paul as something that if be done "for a time" but doesn't read as something normative. This link below gives some details. Here's an excerpt that deserves consideration. And now that the Church "owns" a loosely connected wad of several 100,000 acres of land and properties worldwide including it's own theocratically run country, I think it's somewhat less than generous of the current Pope to consider altering celibacy .....but that's another story... https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/03/23/why-catholic-priests-practise-celibacy "The earliest written reference to celibacy comes from 305AD at the Spanish Council of Elvira, a local assembly of clergymen who met to discuss matters pertaining to the church. Canon 33 forbids clerics in the church—bishops, priests and deacons—from having sexual relations with their wives and from having children, though not from entering into marriage. It was not until ecumenical meetings of the Catholic Church at the First and Second Lateran councils in 1123 and 1139 that priests were explicitly forbidden from marrying. Eliminating the prospect of marriage had the added benefit of ensuring that children or wives of priests did not make claims on property acquired throughout a priest’s life, which thus could be retained by the church. It took centuries for the practice of celibacy to become widespread, but it eventually became the norm in the Western Catholic church."

Twinky, I think that's excellent advice and insight. Over the years I've seen both in myself and others that when it comes to the Bible we kinda bring who we are "to it" when we read. And it's that way with anything we do, isn't it? I do think, without being "elitist" about it, that we'd all benefit from what you're saying and so much misunderstanding comes from just not knowing or following simple stuff. Plus, everyone may sit that and read and listen and nod and say "amen" at the right times but two people can have very different understandings of what they're hearing and reading and just as certainly different applications of the "same thing" into our individual lives. I've been studying Bullinger's scope of scripture again, the structure stuff. I always enjoyed it and it's an area that PFAL didn't get into much but that fits with reading for context. Structure really highlights the literary side of the Bible, as a written book. The ups and downs, the flows, and how it follows and fits with the language itself. The repetition of an idea and how it's contrasted, how it's expressed throughout a chapter, a "book" and then across the entire Bible. I see it revealing meaning and emphasis without adding much need for interpretation or interpolation. And it's something that doesn't seem lost between languages, Greek, Aramaic, English. It follows the content, the ideas, and exposes the essence of the meaning of what's written just by reading it. I'm working on an old project with it, the similarity to music and various musical forms. We know music is written and follows a wide range of rules and reg's, depending on the type, etc. I'm not an expert in all of them by any means, but the fundamentals are pretty easy to understand even if you just listen to music and know what you like. Musicians of all stripe have always used improvisation and very effectively for compositions where the core of the score is written, say a melody or even an idea, and the actual notes then played may vary in performance. Mozart used improvisation in his composing, and sometimes would draw from initial sketches he'd either write out or have in his head when he performed those pieces. This is done all the time in music when someone takes a piece of music and produces different versions of it, "improvises" in it. Achieving different end results while using the same harmonic structures is done all the time, as well as using different harmonic structures against a melody.....it's "different" but it's a product of the melody or even a re working of the melody itself that fits into the original composition in it's entirety. The Bible does some of the same things, which makes sense really - both are written forms of communication that have a living expression to be heard and seen. So it follows that they'd be similar. * I meant to add - I think that's how the "truth" of "God's Word" is mean to be lived in each individual life. People get really hung up on the nuances and every little detail being exactly this or that, in the human rendering of what we learn about in the Bible and are given by God. It's like saying, if we were dancing everyone would have to do the same routine, the same steps and move the same way as each other at the same time. Regimented, coordinated, controlled. Planned. Expected. Repetitive. (Boring?) I believe it all gets lived out in a much broader, grander scale of activity, where the basics are rendered in a diversity of ways that is vast in number, as each of us individually renders out "the living Word", the "logos" - which is how the Bible describes the way the spirit of God works in each of us in the "Body of Christ"...."members in particular".... We contain the vast glory of God when we insist on regimentation, and we constrain the ability of each of us to naturally/spiritually produce a living performance of God's Word when we do. So on the one hand we adhere to the rules and regs....and on the other we then produce our works, our "fruit" which then has the qualities of joy, peace, etc. that the Bible takes about, "fruit of the spirit", not just feel good stuff but real stuff. Thinking of it like music, and performance, and improvisation, it comes to life for me.

Everyday and personal, so true. I kinda springboard off the verse in the Bible that says God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. "Christ in me" and Christ being formed in me and how immediate and personal the relationship really is. My life is made up of millions of "little" things and learning how they ebb and flow as part of the whole is a daily endeavor.

* This gives a good snapshotof the Mass and some of the controversies. I studied and became an "Alter Boy" for a couple years, when I was a kid. This was just before Vatican 2 . We learned the Mass in Latin, and the various responses and movements of the service and what it all meant. I don't remember much of it other than the standard "nominees for biscuits" and "it's feely all saaaanc-tay" kind of responses. The Mass itself has some decent parts to it, I think. If a person is thoughtful and engaged it can be meaningful as a meditative exercise. It's the whole context of the theology and religion that's gross though. Catholicism has a creep reality to it, at least for me - the whole extreme and deliberately gory emphasis on the "blood of the Lamb" and the crucifixion, "Mary the Mother of God", the functional definitions of dulia, hyper dulia, and latria "worship", veneration of Mary, saint-hood and the various mediators and mediatrixes for prayer, "Purgatory" and the final purification of "the elect"...................and other stuff. The Mass in Latin always sounded cool though. "Mystical". Some of the power of the religion comes from those kinds of things - stained glass art, awesome architecture, weird symbols, unintelligible secret rites and rituals. Heady stuff. * http://catholicstraightanswers.com/why-is-the-mass-structured-the-way-it-is/

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p1.htm http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm And worth a read this one - ARTICLE 9 Paragraph 4. Christ's Faithful - Hierarchy, Laity, Consecrated Life "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH" http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm ----------------------------------------------- I was raised RC, and had 10 years of RC education and experience, and direct involvement so I learned the Catechism many times over. But even today I would say that aside from any really theological considerations, if you read the Church's position on itself and who and what it thinks it is (and the above links are just a small part of it) You can understand why it's a completely SNAFU and very much FUBAR. I went through all of this when I was a kid, and at the tender age of 10 was put on notice I was going to get kicked out for being a "Communist". Because I had a lot of questions, y'know, the dangerous kind 10 year olds have. That was before EVERY ONE of the priests and nuns who taught me and had authority over me quit, left their vows and vocation and went off to get married or become nurses or do whatever it was they felt was worthy of their time, but not before they'd manipulated as many young minds as they could to mold to the Catholic Way, which in at least one instance included knowledge of what one priest was .... doing in his spare time. I love people, lotsa Catholics. Know lots of them, and all of them are disgusted with their church's behavior and attitude. Some of them go to church services too but I'll guaran-eff-ing-tee they don't take their grand kids without close supervision. 'S just the way it is, unfortunately. The doctrine however is completely whack. Many of the simplest tenets of Christ and what he taught are mangled and munched beyond recognition. This isn't an idle criticism, it's a response to how RC's explain themselves, via the Catechism they use to do so.

They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/ReleaseForms/ Perhaps they'll be a new book - "The Real Jesus Finally Stands Up!".....a re interpretation of the gospels based on early Schoenheit notations in a lost bible only recently discovered and translated from the original Coined Geek, into modern day middle-American english and a DVD version by Lynn himself, with an added humorous commentary track available, cuz it's the best gift you can get at any price! A free excerpt, below: "And when the multitude had gathered to hear Him, the disciples told Him the people were hungered and thirsty, upon hearing which then Jesus asked that the baskets of fish and bread be brought to him, as well as the freshly scribed Hold Harmless Contracts, of which were distributed first, one to each and ever person with a hand out to receive it, and the ability to sign or nod, that they might relinquish Him of anything they might not like, later or of any sickness or disease or swellings or rashes that might appear to be traced to anything that Jesus said, did, implied, inferred or might have if He'd been there, which may or may not have actually occurred........."

9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life. To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's designed to appeal to the ex-Wayfer crowd. I talk to lots and lots of Christians of all stripe and no one is struggling with or promoting the idea that faith is a force generated by the human mind that yada yada.... Faith is trust, and confidence in, about, towards something. "Pistis/Pistueo" in the Bible, a firm conviction, belief, a trust - IN SOMETHING. The bang is in the buck. My exposure to the teachings of VPW in and around PFAL included what certainly sounded like him teaching "believing" as some kind of tangible "thing" that would produce a result when it was at a certain level. "Build up your believing", got used a lot in that context, and the very idea of Christians as "believers" was both their belief in doctrine as well as their "believing walks", what they did with those doctrines. If you "weren't believing" it had a sense of your tank being half full - like you were convinced but not REALLY convinced, even though you may have done the actual thing that needed to be done and didn't get the "results".....because you weren't "believing"....even though you were. It was kind of like a dog chasing it's tail though and every once in awhile it bites it and stops then starts again..........meanwhile all it really amounted to was trying to saturate your thinking and resulting actions with enough of what God instructs you to do so that your "faith" will then be towards Him. It used to seem sometimes like VPW actually repudiated God's grace when he's teach people to not rely on it - when people like me were thinking "fuk, I rely on it all the time, I NEED IT!!!!"..................and I guess what I think he really meant was don't be a lazy ass and avoid doing the work you're supposed to and expect someone else to do it for you. But they're not really the same things, that's not relying on "grace"> The trust and confidence of pistis/pistueo has significance in the Bible because it's GOD WERE' TRUSTING IN. Pneuma hagion is HIS GIFT, TO US. VPW was trying to build a generation of Uber Christians, The True Believers, who knew THE TRUTH and would WALK IT like it hasn't been walked since the first century. In fact, many of his early protege's tanked and were mostly just successful at being good employees and mimics of him in the family business. He died of cancer, alone but for a sidekick, pushing aways all others who might have actually given a crap about him as a person. I'd rather not exit this temporal crust that way. I can say without any doubt whatsoever and complete confidence that today, the greatest cargoes of life come in over seas of grace, in the vast ocean of God's eternal Will. Two words I caught in PFAL that I hold to today are "alignment and harmony".....rather than build an egocentric prideful bucket of pig shit over MY BELIEVING and all that I DO I have found it much better to try to live each day in a harmonious peaceful relationship with my heavenly Creator and Father and put my trust there. That's always worked, and even "back in the day" I was learning not to show up to my Mental Prayer Hut with a box of my believing and demanding God do this or that or whatever. In fact though, God did answer my prayers quite literally one day by reminding me that there's a lot of things I can "do for myself".....like just...go on. There you go. Go do it. Yep, you're fine. Go ahead. I'm with you. Yes. No - YOU CAN'T GO OVER IT AGAIN WITH ME OKAY YOU CAN BUT REALLY.....why not just go on. Do it. See? Right - okay, now do it again...yep...... Anyway, I learned some of that from Lynn too, as when I was around him and worked some with him he could be on the one hand a very nice, hard working industrious person but on the other, as kindly as I can say, something of a flat earth kind of mentality, intellectually. Not that I'm Einstein, but yeah. No.

That's a timely comment here, Twinky. Was talking about this with someone recently. I'm going to digest your comments, they're very succinct and kinda lit up in my brain just now. Thanks. : ) Grace and mercy, leading to redemption and salvation are the big tools I see over and over in my life. In day to day mundane stuff as well as the Big Things. It's a very functional usable process - grace is the favorable open environment to live in and extend to others, and mercy is the sensitivity to the fact that I live in the current moment of a string of moments that will need to be seen in their entirety in order to understand them, which I'm sure is why God is and can be the only true Judge over all. Not "getting what's coming to us" now (mercy) is really very natural, from God's point of view. When I maintain good will towards others and forgive, I really can live as God has provided for salvation through Christ. Peace n love!

That is really interesting. He was definitely a sharp guy, and it's great he did this to get it on record. Thanks for posting this, I read up a bit on him couple other places where I found references. Psalms says "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints".....Jesus said "the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy"......and "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"..... Clearly, in the grave there's no living glory to God, yet throughout history the deaths of those who have stood against evil and died doing it speaks forever. One, 10, a 1,000, 10 million. Every life counts. VPW's views on Jews and WW2 were odd to say the least. He didn't "deny" that a holocaust occurred, that I ever heard through '69 - '85. He seemed more intent on the idea that the numbers were exaggerated in order for Jews to get leverage and advantage. But it sounded like reporting a flood and that "only 50 died, not the 200 reported".....as if to say that those 50 people were milking their tragedy to want help and for others to learn from what happened to them....

Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was kinda self serving. It benefitted him in several ways: - He crafted his own exit message around his personal involvement and culpability in the things that were "wrong" with the Way Inc. I mention that because when he and I spoke the first time about his leaving, he didn't want to talk at all about issues I brought up to him that I felt he had some accountability for. - He was able to personally attack all of the Trustees and anyone he wished without any chance of their rebuttal or responding. - He created and managed the environment in which he WOULD deal with anything he chose - He was able to start teaching what was to become a long string of half-assed-theories-of-the-week ideas unchallenged, while claiming he was walking in "Doctor's Footsteps" (which he told me over the phone). And when I told him he and I both knew ANY deviation from PFAL would have "The Doctor" shoving his foot up his ass he just chuckled and said "well, we'll all know someday" and continued to blab on. When I last spoke to him in - 1987? - I was still formally attached to the Way Inc. via my then-current Corps assignment but I was very aware that the Way Nash's leadership structure was in rack and ruin and I had no rose-colored expectations that it was going to get better. IMO however, Lynn did no great service to anyone in "revealing" the evils of the Way Trustees that he didn't get a lot in return for. It set the stage for all his future efforts and effectively made him an heir-apparent for all the ex-Wayfers who still needed a nipple to suck on and a warm crotch to lay their head on while being taught "the Bible" again and again and again and again. And again. Other than a phone call in the '90's when he was traveling around with a new book to sell and a coffee can to collect money in when he taught, I have had no contact from him at all. I wouldn't get involved in any of his enterprises, listen to him talk or buy anything he was selling. I'd love to engage in any number of normal real life activities, if the opportunity fell into my lap but other than that I do pray for his health and healing. Over the years I've heard and seen a few things here and there that he's done and - maybe it's just me - but he's turned into a terrible speaker and teacher, IMO. He's not really "funny", which everyone likes to say to get you to listen...."He's just as funny as he ever was".....and I'm not hard pressed to find yet another LOL jokester. I'm sure he's about as good as anyone would be who's been pounding the book for this many years but it's been years since I was dependent on the Teaching Teat of Ex Way Teat-chers. Seriously - there's a lot of sludge out there. As long as they mean well and do their best, I'm fine with it, just don't try to tell me it's next level stuff or particularly meaninful or anything like it. But my Gad-a-mitey, this is ancient history. Why do I persist, and to what ends? I guess it's a way to sort through the detritus and dust and pull out the odd dime or quarter lost in the cushions. God bless 'im but if the intent is to carry on with the message of Christ and salvation to the future generations it's time to give this bullshit a rest and focus on "GOD'S WORD" instead of whether or not one of us old and breaking down former wannabe-s can still punch our old weight. I would say this with no equivocation however and with all the state and stature it deserves - Lynn is the Undisputed King of The Church of JAL. All hail the King of JAL!!

"Men like Heefner, Doop, Anderson, and Wade saw it "up close and personal"........and EXITED." VAST over simplification of those 4 men, their involvement and reasons for leaving, not to mention many others who left and who stayed. Where to start? Jim and I spoke a couple times the year before he died and I think we both got most of our mutual questions answered. I have great respect for him but it would be incorrect to say he didn't have his own issues and baggage he was dealing with even then. For a few months before that final night in Mill Valley that the fellowship saw, he was ready to quit, then back in, then going to quit and going back and forth. I remember him talking about what was going on. There's a myriad of reasons and one that I didn't even know until we spoke last, but the primary reasons at that time were a conflict that he would have preferred to work out. VPW didn't want to, and between them they would either one cut their nose off to spit their own faces - but Jim was more inclined to do so than VPW. Jim returned to the Way, as I'm sure you know. I sat with him and Judy in '75, think it was, as he had returned to do work at the Way, was running some local coffee houses, and went into the Family Corps. He was assigned to Maine then later as Limb boss. His removal from there is something I have first hand knowledge of, having dealt directly with it. One of the saddest times of my time in the Way seeing what had developed. And again, Steve had told him not do do it but he did anyway. And again, there were reasons. I felt a kinship with Jim and in the end he with me, and he told me he remembered how he and I and many others he'd known "know. WE KNOW, like you know your own fuking face in the mirror and nobody has to read it to you", is how he put it. I miss knowing that I may have a long wait to see him again. I'm not going to debate it but "seduce" IMO isn't being danced around and doesn't explain exclusively anything, anymore than all of the earlier names you mention "exited" in some righteous reaction against VPW. If that's how you wish to explain it, go for it. I will not say that everyone was seduced, when so many knew exactly what they were seeking to get out of the Way in return, be it, truth, spiritual enlightenment, knowledge, friends and fellowship, careers, lifestyle changes, a way out of a bad situation or a way into a good situation, a job, a good time and getting laid, power and position, etc. etc. etc. Lots of reasons.

I would also add in general agreement to many of the comments above that TWI's definition of an "unbeliever" was a mix of theology and what I'd call social prejudice. I'll explain - Those of us involved from the late 60's through the 80's know that the Way advertised itself as a non-sectarian and non-denominational group. At the same time the Way was creating it's own denomination, so defined because - if it succeeded in it's goals of "Word Over the World" (not Craig's later lack of interest in continuing to try and just declaring by sacred fiat that voila! it had been achieved) then it would in essence create a new, "true" body of the Church that would stand out separately from all other denominations and churches by it's own, "accurate" and correct theology. While the Way liked to give lip service to the truth and fact that the New Testament teaches that the "church of believers" is ALL those born again of Christ, using the simplest and sparest of essential points of doctrinal requirement..... They/We didn't live that, didn't apply that, didn't believe that part of God's Word. VPW taught that the "family" of God might include all born again believers, all "sons", all those who were born again but - The "household" was all the accurately taught and actively believing believers. "Standing" believers. And he taught from the epistles from the perspective that the "true believers" in the Way were the same "household" as the "true standing believers" in Pauls day. Within that he created sub groups of "corps", and "staff" and "WOW Ambassadors", and other forms of commitments that allowed for specific application of time, talent and service within that household of "standing believers" ..... Who in our day and time just happened to be Way PFAL grads and who fulfilled some basic requirements of what I would call "non-membership", laughingly....those are people who go to a Way fellowship at least once a week (it had been once a month at one point), manifest "power from on high" and speak in tongues, and who financially support the ministry. Anyone who was around from the late '60's will remember how that language got introduced and how it slowly evolved into a set of expectations, requirements, traditions and rituals - all the components of a developing religious denomination. It just did. I get frowns from Wayfers who have left at some point and who feel it didn't go that route, and especially those who adhere to all or some of what they learned from the Way. I do too but even allowing for differences of opinion I see it as both naive and facetious to not see that was happening as it did. And it's self serving to not recognize it now.

On the "atheist" and being an un That's about the way I recall it yes, and with a twist of irony and salt on the glass of the remarks. More of a "I'm so smart, look at me thinking, those dummies don't think, they just think they think" kinda

Definition of “unbelief” was defined in PFAL. Apistia, apeithia and was defined contextually by the relationship of the individual and “the rightly divided Word of God”. Insert not “walking in power” to “the rightly divided Word”, and that’s about it, with the underlined beliefs of “Jesus Christ Is Not God”, the dead aren’t in Heaven but are dead, and a full “operation” of the “9 manifestations.” so...either you don’t know about those things or know enough, to believe...or you’ve heard and been taught but choose to not “believe”....making you an unbeliever. In the Ways earlier population growth of the 60s/early 70s VPW didn’t have his organizational culture fully baked, as it became in later years when so much of The Ways striving to be relevant revolved around him and his own heritage and legacy. Emporia and the Way Corps program put a stamp of integrity on one’s faith that really defined The Way, as time went on and IMO significantly contributed to its implosion. = Unbelievers are those who aren’t members of the Way, meaning they haven’t demonstrated their beliefs in a meaningful way through participation and support in programs, meeting attendance and financial support. That has remained true over the decades, While they change what the “accuracy of the Word” is or what the current “man of God for our day and time” says (read: what the Pope of the Way declares) they still require you to go along with it, 100 percent. Or else you’re an unbeliever. Dr Weirwille died of cancer, and his “true believers” blame the unbelief of his unbelieving followers for his death. So.......apparently by that story the guy who taught it was an unbeliever himself. In many ways unfortunately the Way can be really understood by its failures, using that logic.

There's a lot of self guided, self developed and self managed providers out there. People who have decided that through their own experience, intellect and / or personal enlightenment have a way to help others with their problems. As a consumer of those services I suggest people look at it with at least the same seriousness as they would buying their food or their clothes....asking the questions, where did this come from, how was it made, who made it, how does it hold up? Who else has used these, what did they think? You eat a can of tuna fish and get sick, every can in your city gets recalled and the world goes crazy warning everyone about the bad tuna. Tuna fish everywhere celebrate and swim worry free for weeks, even months. You take a "class" and first you have to sign a contract saying that no matter what happens and definitely if anything BAD happens, you won't hold the providers of the class responsible....? That's stupid. Don't do it. If it's that risky and you have REAL problems and needs, you WANT assurances, and confident guidance so that the risk of what might go wrong is minimized. I had a triple bypass several years ago. My surgery was my Doctor's "One o'clock". He did two that day, and had done over a 100 such surgeries, plus 100's of other similar and related types of surgery plus years of study and interning prior to his years of actually doing them. We prayed and did everything we know to do as a family, myself included of course, prior to the surgery to make sure that we knew what was going on and going to happen. The hospital did several days of preparation while I was there, communicating with me, prepping me. Fortunately we had the time to do all of that, it could have been an emergency surgery done within hours of diagnosis. In either scenario, the important issue of my life and my future wasn't in the hands of a guy with a couple sharp knives who'd been a veterinarian until he decided he'd learned enough to work on people and who had a pretty good idea that his methods were better than anyone else's. And wanted to be paid in advance and have me sign a contract saying if I ended up barking like a dog after the surgery I wouldn't hold him responsible. Momentous? Revenant? (do you get a signed photo of Leonardo DiCaprio with it?) Come on - let's treat our lives like they count for something and that the God we believe in might have a better way to proceed than someone's latest bright idea income stream. To everyone who's done these classes and swears by them and say it did them good - you spit in the wind enough times it's not going to hit you back in the face every once in awhile. But - for those who really really really need to be yelled at and told what doofus's they really really are and need for someone to validate their well being with a few familiar bible verses and a lot of personal innuendo and have a bunch of cash they don't need - see me. I, socks, may be able to help. But it's not cheap.

You can skip the froth below but - What I would suggest is if you're concerned and if you haven't, find an attorney or a Social Services professional, say with the County services and ask them about your concerns. Just make it clear, be specific what your interest is, why you have concerns and what can you find out about how all of this works. Let them know you have a personal concern about the specific well being of a person that's involved in the program. And - Whether or not they're operating legally in California or not, I don't know. And my answer to the question of "do you have any exact direct contact with these groups or people from which you can base your review" the answer is "no". (This reminds me a lot of - I've had people swear to me - that the cure to cancer is to take a couple tablespoons of Baking Soda every day, to "alkaline-ize" their "systems", because cancer "cant exist in an alkaline environment", and all the big pharma companies are hiding that from the public so they can get and stay rich. Cancer cells can't exist in an alkaline environment? At the levels required to fizz out a cancerous growth, neither can we. Our bodies govern ph levels when they're healthy and the idea of dosing a specific area by guzzling baking soda in order to kill cancer cells is ludicrous. It might have an affect on correcting our ph levels but so will a healthy diet and correcting an acidic ph - in fact that can have a huge affect on our overall health. For a person with a serious cancer condition however I wouldn't use a spoonful of Baking Soda and a pat on the back to "cure it". A quazi-professional-folksy approach has benefits as long as it's sound and doesn't go beyond it's own limitations, whatever those might be. That gets into areas of health care, health insurance, etc. And I am of the opinion that every person deserves to have access to whatever levels of health care they need, as practically and efficiently as possible. Without any moral considerations it's most efficient to be involved in a process early, planned and as needed, rather than later and in emergency, so there's different ways to view the issues and solutions besides "doing what's morally right" - morals don't exist in vacuums - who pays, how we do it, what happens when and to whom and how - those are all issues to be solves. We're a smart nation, we could do it but instead we have crazy ass politicians debating the issue. I'd suggest we have an 8 year old dying of a curable disease and an elderly invalid struggling to breathe debate what they think should be done for them, and do that. For everyone. Just help for Christ's sake, it costs less than several hundred highly paid elected politicians trying to figure it out.) It reminds me of that because some people force these "solutions" on others and mean well but are motivated by other concerns - not getting the health care they really need might be one, a misguided idea of the teachings of the Bible, or as part of a business, a personal income stream, as part of making a living, That can muddy the waters. If someone's making a buck off my problems, I will absolutely be cautious in how I engage them. Amd I've always felt that if someone's obeying the laws of the land and is acceptable in their neck of the woods in their local culture, they're free to do as they will. That's based on the idea that we see in the Bible, that while God's plan in Christ and for mankind is an inevitable one we have choices to make of our own "free will." I may disagree and if I have concernsI also have the right to get involved in making things better, if I choose to.

Sure - Momentus has left a trail. My impression - and I'll be generous - is that for those who didn't really have serious issues or problems, it was an exercise in self examination via some external parameters and direction. Like people that are 12 pounds overweight going on a strict diet and deciding to start training to run a marathon....Push! Go! You're lazy, get up and put that extra piece of wheat toast down and get out there! Those new $150 dollar running shoes aren't going to tie themselves!! You always do this you lazy assed doofus - now answer to these reactions from others who know you! Face the truth!! You can do it! As opposed to someone who's 100 pounds overweight, diabetic, on medication and suffering from high blood pressure and terrible year round allergies exacerbated by a sub standard diet and they're disabled and on a fixed income....who requires expert care and experience and a steady diet of healthy, motivating guidance. That person's not going to take well to a ham handed, non professional self developed guidance system. Sure - some of that may be part of the road up and out but where there's a lot of moving parts a very skilled mechanic is required. Momentus has it's roots in the Bible, Christianity. Christianity is fueled by some very powerful and personal things, ideas, truths. Where it and other programs like it run aground is that they put the emphasis on the process that brings a person to making a decision that can then potentially help them, as in Christianity, a belief in the resurrected Christ, forgiveness of sin, peace with God and a spiritual regeneration that puts a person on a path of "eternal life". The power in that is in Christ, and the act of faith that the person puts forth to trust God and accept His plan for yourself. The most damaged, invalid non ambulatory crippled blind people that Jesus Christ healed and taught weren't pushed and throttled to "make a decision" and "face their own realities" or anything of the kinds. I can do all of that I want and if it helps me fine but that's not Christianity, that's extra baggage. Feed the hungry, heal the sick, provide for those with less, all of that is the kind of activity that reflects God's grand generosity but it's contextual - a day will come when those things won't be the issues, nor the personal ones we struggle with in this life. "Revenant" looks very hmmmm.... "trendy". A re visualization of something that doesn't require it. Jesus doesn't need to be re packaged and presented. That puts most churches and self help groups out of business but it does give everyone a lot more time to "freely give" as they have freely received.

Sure, that would work.

No sweat, and no hurry. I made it like it was more urgent than it is probably. But It May give a clearer path to that kind of discussion. Thanks for looking at it. And whatever you end up deciding is fine, of course.

Okay - but I disagree with your disagreement that "Questioning Faith" isn't misleading in it's current position. Look at the screen print below of how it appears in a Firefox browser - (it's exactly this way in the mobile view too on my iPhone) The description of what "Questioning Faith" is isn't readable until I open Doctrinal and click on Questioning Faith and then open "About this forum". In fact, it's obscure as to whether it ISN'T part of what Doctrinal is, in my opinion. So let's look at what's on the screen up there - "Doctrinal" and underneath it a little connecting line to "Questioning Faith", and then a description "discussion of religious/spiritual beliefs. Since this site is not a religious site, please keep all doctrinal discussions in here". In where? In the Doctrinal -> Questioning Faith forum? Let's not belabor it - if your position is that having an explanation 3 clicks in under the top level is sufficient to clarify what's on the top level, we're on different pages and aren't going to agree. Give it some thought though, if you would. The simplest thing to do however would be to just move "Questioning Faith" down into a thread level, in the forum itself so that there wouldn't be confusion. It's a topic in a forum then. In the view the platform gives you for Forums then the description is clear. For that matter, "A Place for Faith" could go there too, but it's likely that whatever goes into a subforum list in the forum view will be unclear, if there's only one. As it is now, it's well - sorry, it's obtuse. I'd suggest naming it "A Place for Faith".

Well. let's see.... Tochini has a long history in northern California. (his family owned businesses in Sonoma county, some movie theaters.) I have never met the man but have met people over the years who have been involved in his self-help pseudo Christian activities - people outside of the ex Way circle, who have no past connection to The Way, John Lynn or other former Wayfers who have since hooked up with Tochini. None of the people I've met were happy with their experience or the results of his efforts, certainly no ringing recommendations. This goes back to before Momentous when he broke away from his church, to Momentous and now this. In between he's done some other businesses, I think he had a web/internet marketing thing going for awhile, some sort of platform/service offering. I only hear about them through certain sources I have, never on the open market where I don't believe he has a great impact, but I could be wrong. This link has a post from 2018 - https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,7414 Look at their site - they have multiple businesses they offer in addition to their "Academy" of self help. https://crossingthejordan.org/our-story/ It's a free country. Unfortunately that does allow some of these people to take advantage of people who need help the most. At the same time I'm sure some of these self-helpers believe they're doing something useful. My advice on face value would be to steer clear of anything with Tochini's name on it but there is no scenario in any stretch of the imagination that I'd encounter any of it or have to deal with it, so it's easy for me to say. I can honestly say I've had some exposure to some well known and some lesser known but very effective "coaches" of various disciplines in my professional career and in over 30 years of active participation in the business world I've NEVER run across any of these people - from Lynn to Tochini to any of them. They do have an impact in the ex Way community and certain high risk user circles but it's a tiny tiny subset of society. Not to say those they affect aren't important, just that there's not a lot of them from what I see. I may very well be wrong though - you're here and I have no idea what your exposure has been so...yeah. What is it you're most concerned about?