socks

Frank - "food banks". I found the United Way to have some very good programs and org's under their umbrella to give to. Food banks are great. I've volunteered to work at them in the past, and need to do some this year. It's a tanglble way to act on what I believe, that it's a crime that anyone should go hungry in the world we live in. People need help, everyone eats. Anyone can load a truck or box stuff up. We like to look for opportunities in the community and church to give to, stuff we find, here and there. My wife's on the board of an organization that helps women start businesses. I'm very proud of her and what she's contributed.

You know, cman, I have a sense that the concept of elitism is both an attitude and than a natural state. This verse states why. Patrick, I see your point, as an attitude or way of viewing oneself and others. As a natural state though, every one and everything has it's own existence and forms an "elite" class of one. Each of us is the superior version of ourselves, any effort to copy will have to be substandard. Paul's words do in fact go to a very elite definition of that "one", as he instructs a person to not be one way - conformed or fashioned to "this world" - and to be another - transformed. The meta means change and the morph means form. The "renewing" produces an actual change. There's another spot where he says to be "renewed in the life of your mind". The continued effort points to a process - growth, progress. If we make progress towards that change of form, it's going to be evident. When metamorphosis occurs it's going to be in the fabric of who we are. We continue to respond to life, be who we are, learn, decide, choose, etc. We're actually going to be changing to be more like that spirit of Christ that "dwells" in each of us. That produces a very "elite" individual - by nature we're the only legitimate version of ourselves there is. By tranforming by the renewing of our mind we become more of the nature of Christ, more like God intends for each person. It's "elite" whether we like it or not. It's progress, growth, improvement, produced by God's interaction and our actions. I think there are negative implications to the idea of an "elitism" but they're probably the ones we bring to the changes we aspire to. Those negative attitudes must be counter productive to the process, when I think about it. ?

Hey nandon - have you found out the who, what and where on all of this? Reading, I was curious what you were being invited to. If I had to describe a good approach to "healing and deliverance" from a Christian standpoint it would be a hmmm..."holistic" approach, where the basics of Christ, the bible and close supportive relationships with others is emphasized. I kinda reject specific methodologies being applied where there are procedures and steps someone walks another through. Maybe it does "work" well for some people. That just tells me it worked well for them, at that time. They're happy. Good. I've read some stuff about "devil spirit" possession that's so general and mushy I could never accept it or give it any credence, where stuff is stated "fiat", and everything from bad diet to smoking to tattoos to bad language is considered "spirit possession" and for no other reason than somebody says so. People can mean well but that doesn't mean you have to go along to get along. Keep your head about you and be as responsible for yourself as you can. I would definitely advise against revealing intimate details of your life to someone you don't really know and completely trust. (and that story about the person that said they could tell someone "what they did 20 years ago" - that's easy. It's what you're going to do tomorrow that's hard to predict. Much easier to suggest....ya gotta watch some of these people.) That's not a "trust issue", so if you feel that way don't feel bad - it's just common sense. :) Plus, if you don't feel like you've got a whole sack of problems to get divined out it's kind of a drag to have someone finding them by dragging you into a sesson of find-and-tell. It just seems kind of weird to me, artificial. Can't quite articulate it, but weird.

Dig those Pet Sounds Exmusika! Every few months I go on a Filter jag-the chorus on this tune just chugs along so cool.

Rick, the brown acid appears to have been taken. I heard if two of the blue ones are washed down with a glass of the Orange cRush, you can see God in the Ads if you type in the second word of every post on that page in the Google Images search. Bumpy, Bumpy, Bumpy. Bumpy. Thank you for proving my point. My work here is done.

You're comparing apples and bananas bump. GS is a website, the forum is a part of it. We keep going over this. I forget you're stuffed so there's less room to retain information. The forum comprises part of what GS offers, but not the whole of it. There's no "at least" aspect to this. GS and TWI aren't the same things to begin with so you can't compare the two. I don't mean to seem redundant but I think part of the difficulty you (and others) have (and have had) is that you're evaluating GS as if it's a church or group or society of people. Then you're saying it's not a group of real people, it's an internet forum. ???? Everyone already knows that bump. Except for a few that are talking to the plants in the corner, and giggling uncontrollably. I...dunno what to do about you guys. Other than that, there's quite a few real people having hearty discussions here. You just don't want to admit that bumpy and you want to see GS move in another direction, one you think is better. So go start one, or get Pawzerhund to set up a seperate forum section and call it "the way things are when bumpy is in charge". We've been through this material before B-py. :) Be honest, you're just treading old ground here.

If that's what you think, fine. Maybe GS's opinion of itself is highly over rated. If you're going to make fun of everyone all the time though don't be surprised when those you poke at poke back. And if that's all you're here for you're contributing to the dilution of the purpose. Something to consider. At some point when something's not right for you and it's time for a change, that's that. You have to do what you have to do. Easy for me to say, sure. But when I feel like I'm trying to do the right thing and someone or something's deliberately making it hard on me and won't respect my wishes I can get a decent head of steam going. At that point, I'm going to do what I need to do. That's the only recommendation I could make to a person - make the moment something you'll be able to look back on someday and at least be able to say you did the right thing as best you knew and could do. That's really all a person can do. Anyone that ends up on the other side of the fence, at least you know where they stand. The stuff that goes on here at GS could certainly tone down a hair at times, no question about it. As far as that effecting Wayfers or others coming here and reading into it that those involved here are nuts, that's for them to decide. But if they're looking for information and honest opinion, they'll get it here from what I've seen. That may include some grief. That's the way it is, then. That's no worse than having people smile at you and lie to your face one day and rip you behind your back the next. And a lot of that has gone on in the Way. So maybe it's a wash. People are people. Those here are no weirder, worse or uptight than those in the Way IMO. I'm not on a crusade here. If somebody's in the Way and they're happy, fine. I may think they're misguided but if they're doing good work they're doing good work. If they're not it'll show. I do a lot of study and stuff of my own. When dealing directly with others I'd rather deal with tangibles than what-ifs. I may be in the minority, dunno. Fine, either way.

How something is expressed is important, no question about it. Myself, I don't care if anyone in TWI reads, hears or listens to anything I write here. If they're out surfin' the web and looking at GS, they have their reasons for doing so. I don't know what those are and can't pretend to address anyone's specific interests or questions. If someone came hare and posted something, I could try to post a response to that. I read some posts here and can't relate the experiences to anything I experienced in TWI. Other stuff is a lot like it, the same, maybe even better. I certainly wasn't perfect and can't claim doing more than my best, at best and sometimes less than that. What you saw is what you got. GS as a website provides a certain amount of information from it's homepage. The Forum is a part of the site for discussion of all kinds for many different reasons. I think it's unrealistic to expect or require that these exchanges focus entirely on relating to members of TWI in some form or fashion that is most likely to insure a receptive response. No one knows exactly what a specific person is looking for. It would be disingenuous to craft posts in such as way as to try and make them "Wayfer Friendly". The board itself only asks for some basic things - be courteous and reasonably civil. Don't rant and rail on others, follow them around and always keep nagging on certain people with the same kinds of posts that are really thinly veiled restatements of the same thing made over and over and over so obviousy that a blind goldfish could tell what the intent is. Don't ask loaded questions and act surprised and insulted when they backfire. That kind of thing, nothing really difficult. Avoid picking at people and stuff over and over because at some point, someone's going to take that pick and put it where the sun don't shine. And then things get ugly, big surprise there. But it's obvious from time to time that's what some posters like to do - ruffle people's feathers and waste people's time. People that are in the Way are probably in the Way because there's something there they like. If they found out other information that they didn't know, it could effect their decisions to continue being involved. Maybe maybe not. There's no accounting for what people will do, when you don't know who they are, what they want, what they need or what they're interested in.

To get that answer you'd have to go to those who are in TWI. You already got one answer, from potato. What do you think bumpy? Is the mission statement of GS being realized? Yes/No?

Really appreciate all the posting and observations here, Dot. Two points, may have already been made - I put some words in bold - while the word "wrestle" is used before this section and seems to indicate a struggle, the point is made that it's not a physical struggle but a spiritual one. The strength is from Gods, and the reliance is on Him. We are told to "stand". I see that the wrestling isn't an engagement with the wicked spiritual powers in high places - we don't "engage an enemy", properly outfitted for a battle or competition or whatever and duke it out. Our "wrestling" comes down to "standing". The outfitting God provides allows us to do that - to stand, protected. We persevere for ourselves and the saints by "praying always" in the spirit, again, going to God.

Greets Chas! Some mellow playing - Bob Brumbeloe...

Some nice playing y'all might enjoy - Tom Leisek (I work with his brother) and Larry Ferrara, playing some baroque, Fernando Sor's "Grand Sonata" for 2 guitars.

Well, this has been kickin' it, at any rate. I'm happy to exchange thoughts here with you. The orignal topic was elitism and how judging others based on their beliefs divides, I think I put that right. Man does what he does and as I stated I feel it's two steps up and 3 back all the time. He thinks he's making progress but he doesn't really know. There's nothing to rate it against, "this" is all we know. So it stands to our reason we'd think we're doing fine. We're grading our own homework. ("this isn't his best work but Jimmy's really trying. B+, he'll do better once he stops hanging around with those losers"). The most universal of belief systems will still have some standards. If it's "do as thou wilt", that's a standard. It it's "do as thou will and bring no harm", that's a standard. If it's "do as thou will and attempt to do good", that's a standard. Here's the way I see it - coherence, unity, is a process, a result. If something is truly "one" it's one one, not two or three things joined. True unity is organic, intrinsic. When something's joined there's agreement. Two, three pieces come together. Contradictory belief systems don't come together and never join. They can co-exist, in disagreement until they cross paths, and there will always be disagreement when they do. I think to not recognize that and accept it is a bad idea. We may never manage those differences successfully. There will be failure. The purest success will be "truth", and truth, whatever that is, will contradict, and vice versa, anything that isn't true. It's so natural and normal I can't see how it's debatable. I don't see how, in our current state of mannishness, anything else is possible.

Thanks Garth. Anyone as talented as you can't be all bad. I behold a paradox that I simply can't get around, with your logic. And it may be that the paradox is an answer we have to live with. The concept - if it's flawed, who owns it? Let's get that guy and sit 'im down. Or her. I'm taking the atheist's stance here in this, which may not be your own exactly. I am in fact, not an atheist, for these very reasons. To be so, I would have to say there's no "god", no external personality or intelligence involvd in all of "this". If there's no god, and we've developed religious beliefs on our own, the human race is seriously flawed. Maybe not you. Certainly not me. But I think it's healthy to recognize then that at any time, man has the capacity to live seriously deluded and far below the standard of a healthy frog or well raised duck. Man can't be left alone for a minute or he'll go to standard and start worshipping comets, or lightning or who knows what. Once he learns what lightning really is he'll stop and harness electricity but in time he'll use it to record and reproduce endless versions of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and at some point put everyone in jail that doesn't agree. He'll make a spear to kill his food and eat better and grow stronger and end up shooting everyone in sight one day. That's the human condition, no matter how far I back it up. We can do good, and we often do. Until we don't. Life sucks when it isn't cool. Life's cool - when it doesn't suck. For the vast majority of mankind throughout history, life has at best, balanced somewhere inbetween, and man tends to bring it on hisself.

Garth, we're gettin' to the nitty gritty now! I'm saving my big guns for the corral, only have time for this much now. It's rainin' out here on the West Coast!!!! You're describing a process of thinking and decision making - the god told me, divine guidance stuff - that by your own construct includes no god or divine guidance. Look at this for a sec in that light - Who's idea is that then? Not the Deity-That-Doesn't-Exist. Who designs mindless obedience to exclude, denigrate, destroy? Not the Ungod. Mans does. Manses and womanses. Man is therefore the flawed component and I think it's time to own up. Don't blame "god", there is none. Don't blame preachers or "believers", they're always here, always have been and always will be if history is any indication. Man comes up with those crazee ideas, man hates, man designs gods in his own image and apparently not his best side. ("do these rituals make my deity look fat?") You in learned and evolved wisdom have concluded that it's misguided and wrong. Great. You're part of the manses species is doing well then. The same brain, mind and body that produced that produces the dented can of fruit known as "religion". The essence of the stuff, the capacity is the same. I know you want to take credit and part in the evolved successes of manses. I just think you should take the same for the devolved condition. It's a wash. If manses is getting any better, don't worry - whatever you contribute will be balanced out. It always will be - it's not the actions, the things, the stuff. It's the species - the capacity is what it is. I have no problem recognizing that - no wishful thinking, no pie in the sky maybe it'll get better if we all just try harder. There's no human tooth fairy going to grab me by my boot straps and pull me along to a brighter future where there are spandex jackets for everyone. It will get better, and I certainly hope so. But somewhere there will be the other side of the bell curve, not carrying their weight. Because they're human. We are what we are.

My thoughts eggsackly Eyes. The mans we have today aren't all that different than the mans and womans of the past. Same brain, same mind, same body. Same kinds of actions. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Blaming "god" and "religion" needs to be clearly defined. When we do that I think we see that "religous" thought doesn't produce - inherently - a bad result. The LCD is man. If there's no god and it's all bull cheet at church, fine. That belief has to accept that there's only one root to the problem - the mans and womans. If religion is a bad idea, who's idea was it? to put it another way.

Hey Garth, thanks for the response. I would say - "worthless sinner" can be looked at and defined and have meaning in this discussion, but it's charged with a lot of information and feeling. Overall - look at mankind - Let's assume for a minute there's no god, none of that stuff. No god that's communicated, spoken, informed or even hinted at any of the religious type thought that man cooks up, and entirely on his own. He acts according to those ideas and beliefs of his own accord. And that's produced a lot of bad behavior throughout history. Where's that coming from? Not god, there's no god in this scenario. It's man doing it. Somewhere along the line man concluded these things, not once but over and over. In fact history indicates if we got rid of it all today - it would be back again and pretty soon. Man would do it all over again. The beliefs and the actions are coming from man, to exclude, denigrate, destroy. Man comes up with "godly love" and beats the crap out of anyone who doesn't believe in it. Who's doing that? Not the imaginary god. Man. And he's always done it, in this scenario. Who's zooming who, here?

Sorry, those cards don't stack in my deck, Garth. Here's why - Everything you pointed out exists today, or doesn't exist, no different than at any time in the past. The core issue needs to be defined here, and it doesn't include "worthless sinner" so we can take that off the table. The potential to do everything you described has always been in the human condition. Whether we decide to do any of them has always been possible. The decisions we make as a species IMO are first informed by 1.) personal survival and 2.) procreation. Namely - I want to live and I want to have company, preferably amongst those I know and that have a relationship to me. Trusted relationships help to insure survival. Beyond that I think man has the potential to see outside himself and try to understand what goes on around him. I know beyond any question that I'm 1.) me and not you and 2.) I have a past and a future. I have a sense of self and purpose beyond survival and kin and clan. Those two things are very unique amongst the animals on this planet. That state allows for something like "leisure", the sense that I can invest time in non-essential survival oriented activities. That's where I think the weaknesses of the species show themselves. Given the choice, man can choose to idle, do nothing, do damage to himself or others, not for the purpose of surviving at the possible expense of another but simply because he/she determines that's what they want to do. In essence, work at cross purposes to their own best interests, even deriving pleasure from it. That indicates to me we may not be pumping on all pistons all the time. The larger part of stupidities come from all manner of sources, not just religious based sources. Religious based stupidities often (since we're dealing in big soft generalities here) fall right into the survival pail. When someone feels threatened they defend, attack, act in such a way as to eliminate the threat and establish dominance. That's basic humanity at work, informing what you're calling "faith". It can be that the highest of ideals tank when left to the basic inadequacies that man brings to them. Don't "get me wrong". 'm all for pushing forward onward and upward. As a human I do have a lot of affection for and investment in my kind. :) No offense but I don't over estimate our potential though. We have greatness in us, but I don't see that we're becoming any greater over time, just that we continue being who and what we are. I dunno, to me it just seems plainly evident.

Christian or not, man isn't evolving into anything demonstrably better. History proves it. Everything cycles, down up, up, down. Man improves but man consistently shoots him/herself in the foot at some point. Survival is a miracle and perhaps the greatest proof of all that there may be some greater purpose at play here - it's a wonder - seriously - that we survive at this point. We make better smarter tools and technologies - that do wonderful things on the one hand but end up killing ourselves or others one way or the other. Mankind is the Living Elmer Fudd. We're blowing up the entire forest to catch one d#$%$d rabbit and don't have the sense to just each the carrots. Man...evolving? Given another 500,000 years...into what? At this rate, we can't even keep our hair intact as a species for more than a few years.

I wll, thanks! And big Happy's back at ya! Everyone have a great New Years Eve!

Howdy! You're teasin' us! Where's it listed? :)

Pressure, that's what we need. More pressure. :blink: A little squeeze in the right spot will get 'em jumpin' to the tune on the right beat. No doubt what bugs them the most is that people like Hendricks who have left over the years feel that they, not the Wayfers in New Knoxville, are couriers and carriers for the "original" vision of VPW and The Way, who feel that the Way Nashers are religious fish wrap. Knowing that others consider them errant squatters on the intellectual and spiritual property built by others probably bugs them to no end, thus the scrabbling in the dirt to do something so trite even a tic could see there's no blood there to suck. It's their way of saying "WE OWN THIS, NOT YOU, SEE? IT'S RIGHT HERE IN GREEN AND WHITE". They forget - the reason people left is because they had to get away from the incestuous squalor known as "The Way" of New Knoxville. It's not the name that's the problem, it's them. Nice.

Good question, johniam. How can anyone really claim to own the words "The Way", when the phrase is (supposedly) referencing Jesus Christ? That was the reasoning behind the name "originally" given - not to say that this IS The Way, but to reference Jesus Christ, who is The Way, and the The Way Nash of New Knoxville was preachin' and teachin' 'bout Jesus Christ. That was reiterated many times, "We're not saying WE are The Way, we're saying Jesus Christ is The Way". So come there and find out about Him. It. The Way thing. In a way, (I'm killin' myself!) it's like claiming to own the words "Jesus Christ". While there are many books, religions, philosophies that reference those two words, Christianity certainly lays a major claim to it's use. Viewed that way which is reasonable I think, it's an easy case to make that those two words can't be owned in the legal sense. They describe something or someone and are used by millions of people in different but similar ways. The words "The Way" are considered synonomous with Jesus Christ by millions of Christians now, and past not to mention the millions of others who use it in a religious or philisophical context to represent something or someone. It might be like laying ownership to the words "The Door", and then suing every hardware store that uses them. The whole idea of suing people over the use is childish, sophomoric, small minded. Little tiny brains thinkin', thinkin', thinkin', and not coming up with much else to do than try and validate their existence by securing exclusive rights to a couple of words that should signify freedom, a world of possiblities and a new and exciting view of life, not some restrictive ham-handed, strident and over reaching grab at reducing it to one teensy little square of the ground lest anyone walk there without their approval. "OUR Way, OUR Jesus Christ, OUR Bible, NOT YOURS. It makes them look even worse than they already do, a difficult task but one which they seem to have no end of ways to accomplish. It's dumb. I also wonder if The Way Nash of N.K. is primarily interested in stopping those with past affiliation who go on to use the words...? Or just any Tom, Dick or Doris who decides to use it...?

After, potato. After read and prayed for. It wasn't a matter of course or a tradition. Sometimes there would be prayer vigils, or occasions when people would write things down. The occasion might be where the individual would toss them in, burn 'em up. Or there might be a collection of them. Contrary to what's being reported and purported here it wasn't a cavalier gesture. I would compare it to a kind of community event, grouping together to pray. There's nothing sinister or cynical about writing a heartfelt prayer on a piece of paper or tossing it in a campfire as a gesture of releasing it to God. It may mean nothing to some of you but it meant something to me.