socks

I'm still gurgling over the line "What gives you the right..." I suspect Highway that the emphasis was on YOU. You, you of all people, what qualifies YOU, what makes YOU someone who feels YOU have the right to question the almighty righteousness of the ministry that saved YOUR life and bad mouth US when YOU have NO RIGHT to do so?????!!!??? And on "the right"....what RIGHT do YOU have to do such things? You have NO RIGHT to do that. NONE. Yeah. Whew. That's good. I guess they sure told you, hey? Now - While I, socks, bring a certain panache and scinitillating insightfullness to any discussion, I will be the first to admit that I do comment from time to time on things that others would be better equipped to address. Still, I hope to add something, if only personal perspective. But our right to do so is without question. The world looks to the ol' US of A to be the beacon of light that shines out the message "Rights Respected Here!". Well, we try anyway. Sometimes. Sorta. But the right to speak, ask and question is about as American as a Two for One Blue Light Special on Made-in-China Fip Flops. Except in WayWorld I guess where rights are negotiable and have an expiration date attached to them. Once you're in Shelby County, get your papers in order because you WILL be rights-challenged if you get mixed up with the Way. Trouble is, those who DO have a more informed voice won't speak, won't talk, won't offer facts or perspective and have no approved platform to do so. And those who DO have the platform, like Rico M., make claims and then don't stand behind them. Why, I would have quivered with excitement at the mere idea of being fully informed. Yeah! That's what I'm talkin' about! A to Z, too. Then, shoot. They got in the soup, but must have run short on nuts. All outta nuts, and there must be a drought because they're still nutless. What can you do? No nuts. It would be wrong to insist on nuts when there are clearly, no nuts. Squeeze hard as you want, nothing. No nuts. By the way - this isn't intended to be an advertisement but I'm working on a small written piece, I hesitate to call it a "book" but it might be book-like in the end. It's titled "The Three Most Important Questions in Life", sub titled "And The Three Answers". This is, in fact, no joke. I, socks, am in the process of writing it even now and have been working on it since last year. You reminded me of it, Highway. Those WayGB dudes were in my wheelhouse, as they say.

It kinda went downhill from there... What gives you the right....?????? Oh yeah. Oh yes! Yes! Yeeeees!!!! That's good. Sorta reminds me of every lapel pinching finger poking bad breathed jerk-off I've ever met. What gives you the right? (note to self - carry a photo copy of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and Constitution at all times in case these bozo's ever take over the country)

Seth - I knew Rico, he was the WOW Program Director the year I went WOW, I had to deal with him several times on the phone and other wise. So, Rico was the WOW Program Director. Interesting. Not light duty, to be sure. Back in the day when there were more than 10 or 15 "going out", I'm sure. Oakspear: This is what TWI turned into in the 90's and 00's. No thought of actually teaching or helping people, nothing but circling the wagons and throwing those who deviated from the company line out. Adds new meaning to the phrase "Word Over the World". At one point they tried to "trick" me by stumbling over the pronunciation of "Twyril" and looking at me expectantly, seeing if I would supply the correct pronunciation! Can anyone read that and not chuckle? (chuckle*snort) Not funny at the time but looking back - how weird! Do you think they reported back on the successful "outting" of the dreaded and evil Twee-rile, Twighral, or whatever his name is?

she knows more of the "soup-to-nuts" facts than hapless rico will ever know!. as far as rico or any other twi innie ever exposing the facts "from A to Z"?........ROTFLOL!............not in their lifetime!!!............................. It's true, isn't it?

...sure enough, when he and his wife showed up at my home they had the printouts with them and confronted me for my online activities. I was officially declared "Mark and Avoid" a few days later. Your online activities... What kind of people monitor the online activities of the members of their church/congregation/ministry? That fax and research to determine who's posted what? That scurry around to stop anyone that might have a question they don't want to answer from even being present? Why the extreme secrecy? That's just plain chicken sh!t. Not to give chicken sh!t a bad name. That's fear, to put it mildly. For an open ministry that say they share soup, nuts and everything from A to Z to keep people informed, why such measures to insure that you - "no matter WHO YOU ARE" per the PRC - WILL NOT be fully informed? Because you might share it with others online? What were they afraid of? Full disclosure? "The truth shall set you free." Details? "The truth shall set you free." Bad publicity? "The truth shall set you free." Shame and guilt? "The truth shall set you free."

Today's Koolaide is that LCM is a far gone memory. Notawayfer - Yup, I hear you -"he's all gone now. The trouble makers have left". Story over. Or is it? The very person who made the claims to fully inform is still hanging around apparently, as Rico was on video not long ago helping to chase off and keep people out of the Way Woods who felt they had a right to be on the property. So, come to think of it he's been working the mic fairly recently. And what's really funny in a sad way, seeing the smarmy look on his face as he summarily and flatly denied that anyone had ever at any time made any statement to the effect that those of the Way would always have access to that property. He flat out denied, on video, that statement was ever made. Now - the fact is that VPW did make that statement. He made it with the assumption that those who he was thinking of would be fully supportive members of the Way at the time. So there's a matter of interpretation and application there that needs to be sorted out, but denying it was every made is untrue. I'm sure he was made aware of that and chose to make the statement he did regardless. So it doesn't cast a good light on his veracity or of those around him. So the problems are far from over. In fact, it would appear they're an accident waiting to happen.

Hmmmmm. Illuminating information on those years. Thanks everyone! Again, I know this has been discussed before and posted on. It's really interesting to read it, in the context of those years you all experienced firsthand. And significant - this isn't ancient history, old days long gone, way back when the earth was cooling and hippies sprang forth out of the ground it seemed, populating the Weirwille's ancestral farm. This is recent, involving the current regime that's formed at the Way, just a few years ago. This occured about 8 years ago, and continued in context for the next few years. So it's bumping right up into 2007, 2008. Chaster, hi! His being the PRC for TWI was probably the highlight of his career. Anyone know if he came from a Communications or Journalism background? Anything related? Or just an assignment gone terribly awry? :blink: Hamlingston said: I think they just couldn't put enough spin on anything lawsuit related to make it look "good". I've thought about that - lipstick on a pig, pretty much. The way they handled it seemed to be to go underground, stealth. Somebody must've gotten some Preparation-M and used it because it sounds like the basic message was "shut the f*k up and don't say anything that isn't written and approved". Which kinda makes sense - lawsuits and all. But what an opportunity missed!!!! Seriously, the chance to get the previous 10-12 years behind them by getting some fresh air in, opening up the lines of communication and building something based on fresh, honest and open effort. "Fully informed", indeedy. Oaks Minimal information. They must have known that the information would get out, so they told us about the lawsuit, but nothing more. The lack of information is one of the reasons why those of us who left 7 - 8 years ago left. Many of us turned to WayDale & GSC for our information because we weren't getting it "inside". Heck, Don Wierwille was dead 5 days before it was announced in fellowships. Yikes!! I'm catching again the simple point - "Mark and Avoid" was enacted for many of those who wanted to have what had, in fact, been promised them. What any reasonable person would want or expect even if they hadn't read it in the paper - Magnelli's statement that all of the information, noups to suts, R to M, would be handled so everyone could make up their own minds. OUCH!!! That ain't right. Innies-think about it. What promises have been made to you, in perhaps perfectly good faith by those locally, that won't be delivered? Will the rules change? Will it matter? Highway, thank you. You been dere, done dat and saw it first hand. We were told that since it was all a pack of lies, told by a couple where the wife ran the household, who had made demands on twi leadership and didn't get their way and were now hatefully and vindictively looking for revenge, that we didn't need to know what the actual accusations were. We were told to STAY OFF the INTERNET!! This kinda sums up the whole conflict of RM's perposterous claim to "fully inform" everyone - they quickly devised a well orchestrated and executed plan to misinform their membership - by denying them the very truths and facts that would have kept them fully informed as to the nature of the "lies" and their definition of an "attack" on the Way. An attack perpetrated by the President of the Way himself and those closest to him! Had no claims been made, no expectation would have been established. And of course, those claims were made in a press release. Were those statements distributed to everyone in the Way at that time? Did everyone even know what they were being "promised"? Contrary to the claims of their PRC, there doesn't appear to have ever been an honest accounting of what was going on, who was involved, what the problems actually were, when they occured, how they were being handled, and without any effort to establish a reliable and consistent plan to followup with their members throughout the time period so as to continue to keep them fully informed so they could ultimately make their own minds up with honest conviction. Rico said they "will", as Ham noted. They never did though. Call me a Negative Nick but doggon it - he sounds like he wasn't telling the truth. Or maybe he just got confused. Lost his memory. Amenesia. Had his cat taken hostage, threatened. Maybe...dunno. That ain't right. Or as Larry the Cable Guy might say, "I don't care who you are, that ain't right".

The word "privacy" comes to mind. Having it is nice. This isn't meant to sound pejorative to those that would use such a resource, but it seems there are "special needs' amongst the GS participants, where the ability to post and have them be more private would be a benefit. If that's doable, I'd say go for it. But there's always a chance that the privacy will be invaded. Posting is anonymous for the most part. Who knows who's who? I agree that aspect of it may be too unweildy to manage and eliminate all risk.

I wanted to add - like you RG, I look forward to anyone who can recount events that they believe substantiate Magnelli's claim. I'm keying on what he said because of what his job was/is - Public Relations Coordinator. He addresses the "public" and handles messaging that speaks to the public. One of the first things in PR is - shut up. Don't motor mouth. Anything you say can and will be repeated a 1,000 times, so make sure it's what you mean and what you want to have repeated. Like LCM - I can see why they put a bag over him. He loved to talk and rattle on extemporaneously on anything and everything that buzzed his bonnet. Once he got a head of steam going he'd amp up and go in a 100 different directions, with seemingly no thought for if he made any sense or not. That's my opinion of course, but even long before 1999, that's the way he was. Basically, a PRC's worst nightmare - someone who can't control what they say and defends what they say as being "inspired". Still - the PRC hisself made a clear point, in descriptive language - of the Way's history and ongoing desire to make sure their members know what's going on because they need to, to make up their own minds. I doubt that a man hired to manage messaging would mishandle such statements as he made. I'd say this defines what they consider "fully informed". It's "need to know - and you don't". I won't outright say the man's a liar - although it appears that he was. Maybe he believed what he was saying. Maybe he got caught in the cross fire and was as surprised as everyone else when he learned they weren't, in fact, going to be going A to Z through everything for their peep's. Maybe he got spanked for saying that and hoped it would just disappear. Maybe his alphabet soup ran short on nuts. Dunno. :blink:

Thanks for the responses. I now this is ground that's been gone over many times before, but it amazes me that such a thing transpired and their members could today believe it was all handled appropriately. To me "fully informed" sounds like a big bag of wind. Here's to whoever can prove me wrong. Somewhere between Magnelli's soup and nuts, it got pretty lean. RainbowsGirl - that's significant, I think. Thank you. Until 2007, nuttin' through tapes, DVD's or the Way Mag. 1999 and 2000 - I can see how that was a difficult time for everyone involved. It would have been right to follow through as stated though. By 2001, it's time to make good on the promise of some information on what had happened and what was going on. GeorgeStGeorge, thank you for that. Botkins - nice little city as I recall. Oaks - 3 meetings? One, he's being sued and it's being handled. Two, he's stepping down. Three, he's out, goodbye, see ya. I wonder now if everyone nationwide was supposed to have those meetings, and if everyone did the same thing in them? Looking back, do you think it amounted to them finding out more about what was going on with him and the others? (were others booted out along with him that weren't announced or just him, I wonder?) I've been told - second hand, but from a source I consider reliable - that when he got to doing depositions, he "laid it all out" and told of numerous similar instances and gave forth a lot of details on what was going on. That being the case, his original contention that the Allen lawsuit involved a concensual "affair" went south quickly, I'd imagine. Clearly it wasn't that "simple". He stepped down and no doubt it got complicated to say the least. I can't imagine what else went on during that period, but it got to the point he was stripped of all Way Corps and Clergy recognitions and fired. So there had to be at the very least some strong differences of opinion there as to how he was handling it. So it sounds like those meetings you had addressed "what happened" (to a certain extent but not fully) but not the "why". Not enough to make up your mind about anything. What's to make the mind about? Nothing. Someone gives a version of what's happened and that's that. There's no information. That puts people in a very difficult situation. All you can decide on is how to react to the report. Twinky, thanks for that. And no explanation means definitely no rebuke. Indeed - they gave the impression it was all being handled. By who? How? What methods were being used, what standards? Rosalie's job to do this publicly and comprehensively - one would think. This whole thing opened up that there's a threat to the membership of the Way - they believe the "Adversary" is around every corner. Clearly the "Adversary" had gotten in. What better way to handle than to have a "fully informed" membership, that knows what's going on and what the threat is. They've got people there now who think "he's all gone now" and everything's swell. But how could it be - those closest to the matters haven't all come forward and accounted for their own state and status. Or have they? I'd like to know if they have, it would make their PR man look and sound a whole lot better. Livinlarge - I completely agree with that. Yet, it would make good sense to draw a line and do what Magnelli said they "do" - lay it all out, once and for all, and account for their own stewardship of their ministry.

Browsin' around on the GS homepage links I ran across all of the News articles that have been posted there. My brain was kindled by the series of press releases the site has assembled chronicling the Allen lawsuit, and subsequent events. Notable are comments from Rico Magnelli, "Public Relations Coordinator for the Way" at that time. Starting at the end of the year and working back, give these a read: Wapakoneta Daily News - 11/07/2000 The Way International reaches settlement with couple Rico Magnelli, public relations coordinator for The Way, confirmed a settlement with the Allens had been reached but would not divulge any more information. "We are not ready to release anything at this time," Magnelli said. "We will release something on this at a later date." Sidney Daily News - 09/21/2000 Martindale leaves The Way Responding to questions about these reports, The Way trustees issued a statement: "The Board of Trustees has considered these matters very seriously at length and made our decisions because it was the right thing to do. We've had to respect everyone's interest here. This is all we are prepared to say on the matter at this time as we don't believe it warrants public discussion." Magnelli declined to respond to questions concerning unconfirmed reports that Louis Lind has left his job as The Way finance coordinator. Wapakoneta Daily News 06/28/00 Former Way member alleges wrongdoing Way International spokesman Rico Magnelli was unavailable for comment on the suit at press time, and the organization has not yet released an official statement. Wapakoneta Daily News 04/08/2000 The Way target of lawsuit A press release from The Way attorney Rico Magnelli contends the lawsuit "is part of an organized campaign to destroy The Way International." And then this one, in the middle of 1999: WayDale stirs up memories August 8th, 1999 Rico Magnelli, public relations coordinator for The Way International, said that the Way's policy is to keep people fully informed. "Anyone that has ever been involved in our ministry honestly knows that we explain decisions involving our ministry from A to Z, from soup to nuts, to our followers. This has been the pattern since 1942 from the founding board of trustees clear through to the current trustees and leadership body. We want people to be fully informed because we understand people, no matter who they are, have to make up their own minds," Magnelli stated. --- Now - the lawsuit settlement sealed the details of the settlement, we know that. But - the Way had a whole year, and a paid PR Coordinator to 'splain and inform what was going on. In 1999, Magnelli said they were doing that and sure sounded like they intended to continue. There were many details that could have been put forth about what was going on, had gone on, etc. PR Coordinators report externally, outside an organization. Seems as if Magnelli had little to say to the external media. He indicates the Way used it's well developed internal communication structure to inform people so they could make up their own minds. Was he telling the truth? Anyone still involved that lurks here reading this, think - before you assume that they told you whatever you "really needed to know", ask the question - why did this guy tell the "outside" world that they were so intent on keeping you "fully informed" - if you weren't? If they never did? If this site and others is where you've found out information for the first time? Likewise - are "they" telling you "the truth" now? Is silence golden? Questions that come to mind: Does anyone know if Magnelli is still the PRC of the Way? Anyone here that was in the Way during 1999 and 2000 remember them following through on the statement above to "explain decisions involving our ministry from A to Z, from soup to nuts"? During that time period would anyone describe their level of knowledge of these events to be "fully informed", REGARDLESS OF WHO (YOU WERE) so that you could "make up (your) own minds"? Where and when did you get an "explanation" of the decisions?

You're already a win-nah Polar Bear! Hi F.Un. I like your logic. Job certainly had a good shake coming to him, and it's a good read. My income's certainly increased, quite a bit since the last year I was "in" the Way. But there's certain changes I made that contributed to that outcome. Still, there's been a very constant increase. It's more than double, fortunately. Still, I can always find good use for more so if anyone's double downed and hit the jackpot, I can be reached at SoquesWillFindGoodUseForYourXtraDough@sweetdeail.com. Besides my own effort though I give full credit to the Creator and Father of All Good Stuff, who's seen fit to slide some sugar my way. Likewise family and other stuff - I can't say that I was all that robbed and ripped though so there's no rags-to-riches story to tell really. Well, I definitely have more "good" socks in the drawer now, and some nice pants. Nothing extravagant, but decent quality. I've gotten some very nice guitars too, going from one to many. So, that's nice. I have a nice computer and some other recording stuff. I never had that before. It's taken awhile but stuff seems to have come around where once there was none. More than double that, i I guess. Mostly my kids - man, I have great kids. My wife's great too. She's the same one I've always had but it's significant she's still onboard for the trip. Thre's some serious spiritual joo joo going on there. God's got my back. Wife, kids, can't say enough about them. 'Sall good. Plus, my kids are old enough now to know what it takes to meet their own bills so I've got serious street cred' in that department. Respect! It's a beautiful thing. My Wife enjoys Joyce Myers too, now and then. A little bit goes a long way. Joyce isn't my thing, I'm sure she means well and is nice and all but I don't get much out of her sermons and preaching. But this sounds like one of those affirmations my Wife likes, that sets a positive expectation and can be easily remembered. Nothing wrong with it, IMO. Why not double? Triple, you deserve it. Everyone does.

Hmmm. Right - I didn't state that Ezekiel means, today, to pray for believers to put a hedge of protection around them, as a protective measure against harm from the adversary, but there was a lot of that in TWI's intepretation of that verse. In this life, I believe there's an opportunity to help one another, in the right context and for the right reasons - "prayer" would be one, for sure IMO but not the only one, and in fact could be a waste of time for some people in some circumstance - like when something needs to be done.

"Standi(ing) in the gap" is taken from Ezekiel: Ezekiel 22:30; I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so that I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. The whole chapter deals with Israel's condition at the time, and is a scathing reproof of the morals, ethics and conduct of the nation, it's leaders both governmental and religious, and the people, the social order of the day if you will. TWI taught Jesus Christ as "bridging the gap", a Christian view of redemption that's fairly common - man separated from God, Jesus Christ the means of joining the two, a bridge of sorts. Which He is, although that statement alone doesn't fully express redemption realized and accepted - the image of a bridge is of a means of access, transport - and Jesus Christ would be in the same way a Shepherd would be with a flock, caring for them. The end result for a follower of Jesus Christ is "pasture" for eternity, with God. So to my mind, the "bridge/gap" idea is a piece but not the whole. Big piece, but the bridge goes somewhere. Standing in the gap, think I first heard it taught in TWI based on the record in Ezekiel. Wall, the "hedge", that deal about "hedge of protection" figures in. Someone to do the rebuilding and take the place of a "stand" for God, for His instructions, people, way of life, etc. The aspect of service is foundation to that. If a society is far off the track of God's way of doing things - Ezekiel describes a national condition that's not that hard to picture unfortunately - a great deal of work needs to be done. In this day as then, on all levels. Under those circumstances there would certainly be some who wouldn't agree or want that kind of change, however, reading Ezekiel, I can see that there would be large part of the population who would benefit and would likely embrace and support that kind of change, it would be seen in political, social, religious, economic, all kinds of stuff. I guess you're making me think rascal, back in the day, my idea of that "stand in the gap" seemed to be something that had both immediate and local implications as well as much larger, broader ones. I can't really trace how it evolved, or what it evolved into specifically. The blur between standing, bridging, skiing, doing the backstroke, "in the gap", dunno. It probably came down to basic Christianity 101 - there's a personal individual focus as well as a group, "body" focus. Everyone needs help, and all members have their place. As you point out, Christ has his and it can't be superceded, attempting to do so frustrates the process that's been put in place. I would suppose today to "stand in the gap" would have to be based on a legitimate recognition of Christ's function with the church and a careful considered effort to support a commonly held view of a "successful" one, that gives "glory" to God.

How many "new' peop's are you seeing, copen? On average, is that fellowship "growing"? Just curious.

I forget. Tell us again, copen. Why do you go?

Sounds real, rascal. I don't really know what went on with his illness other than he'd been really struggling with it since the early 80's, at least. No one ever said exactly what he had, or what was wrong. Not being at the Way Nash you only heard what was sent out. Talking to people that were there, it was hard to get a fix on what was going on. LCM was Motormouthing as always, the interminable bore with a mic, doing whatever it was he was doing that month. Business as usual.

Nazi like? or a Nazi? He wasn't a Nazi. I'll bet 50 cen' right now, on that. The anti-semitic stuff doesn't stick, based on his close relationships with formerly Jewish members of the Way. It was no secret he didn't think what made someone a "Jew" today wasn't geography, he believed the Jews had scattered and were not united as a nation today. I guess that could be considered "anti-semitic" but not in the sense that he intended people harm or wanted them dead or something. He was into the right-wing literature and sources, yes. A lot of people are, for the information. Shoot, I read Reader's Digest, used to have a subscription. The deal with calling Weirwille or referring to him as a "Nazi" has shock value, but not much substance, IMO.

He died of the illness. The "broken heart" stuff just comments to his state of mind and overall emotional state. CG thought VPW could have "believed" himself to health if he wanted to but since his heart was broken with disappointment, he just gave up and died. At the time of his choosing, of course. Hogwash. VPW had every reason to live and do exactly that, if he'd wanted to and been able to. He'd been sick for several years, with a terribly debillitating disease. By the sound of it, he suffered from deep depression those last few months. I'm sure he felt bad about the treatment he received, as most of his younger healthier Way BOT's and leaders lost patience for him in his ill state. He'd reached a point where they figured he was out of date and out of the "spiritual loop", and to add insult to injury he couldn't keep up physically. In some ways he might have even been an embarrassement for them. Cold, hard, mean to be treated like that? Sure. But not uncommon amongst the true Sold Out Wayfers. His family loved him, but it was in quite a state by then. I don't blame any of them, under those circumstances it's difficult, confusing, hard, demanding and draining. I don't think VPW acquitted himself very well those last couple years, and given his condition he'd have needed a lot of support. Knowing him, he could have refused the things that might have helped, and encouraged behavior that might have hurt. He could be obstinate and prideful, just like those closest to him. The way he acted, what he did, Geer's actions, unfortunately, very normal reactons to such difficult circumstances.

As a Christian, I find my extended family of brethren and sistern, including all those crazy cuz's out on the Left and Right coastal areas a fascinating bunch. Me included. We're a funny bunch. We believe in Jesus Christ variously as a Redeemer, Messiah, Savior, Son of God, God the Son, Teacher, Shepherd and All Around One Bad Mothah who will get us through this Dark Valley of Time and upon whom we invest our highest and greatest hopes for this life and in fact all of eternity. JC is The Man for whom many, will finally bring down the Righteous Sword of Judgement for all and Kick Asz As Necessary, No Names required because perfect justice will be His purview. Yet many of us have different understandings of who exactly He is, where He is, what He's done, is doing and will do, given the time. Somewhere in all of this there has to be a very personal understanding of who it was that we went to, accepted, learned out, needed, liked, loved, wanted and ultimately determined to follow. What were we hearing, seeing, thinking, wanting, needing? It's difficult to follow someone or something that's indistinct, faint, unclear. That may be where the challenge is, if there is one and I think there is one. I know of no other way than to keep at it. We all need and benefit from whatever help anyone else can give but ultimately it's our mind's eyes that see.

I remember that letter, anotherDan. Yes, it circulated online too, if I remember right. It was weird back in the day, I almost thought of it as a "joke" letter, yet it was clearly on Way letterhead and with his signature. There was a question asked once in a 4th Corps meeting where he basically said he didn't want to talk about it, "people" would go in all kinds of directions with it, "you think ab-owd eet", kind of a deal. The Way, It Was...I remember all the many times we sang "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" with him- Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face, And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, In the light of His glory and grace. and "I Come to the Garden Alone"... "And the voice I hear, falling on my ear, the Son of God discloses....aaaaaand Heeeeee walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am His own.... and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known... He speaks and the sound of His voice...is so sweet the birds hush their singing. And the melody that He gave to me, within my heart is riii-iingiiiing....." You tell me. :)

Yeah, rhino. That section on John 1:1 could take people by surprise, particularly if they'd heard much teaching on it before as most teachings emphasize the meaning of it being that Jesus Christ was very much "with" God, "in the beginning". VPW's definition that's taught offers the "distinctly independent of" part to pros, although most definitions of the "Koine Greek" word pros include the aspect of movement towards ---> and the idea of a close relationship and companionship. So, to a certain extent it's always seemed to me that the meaning still requires fleshing out, as it were. I'd say leaning towards "foreknowledge" as the answer is one way to understand it buuuuuut I don't think the words of John 1:1 are an open and shut case on that. Plus, while John is accepted as being written somewhere between 50 and 85 a.d. it's also thought to have been written much later, 140ish a.d. etc. It's different in the presentation of Jesus, from Mark and Luke, and Matthew too. Whenever written it opens with a bang, and the statement seems to put Jesus in a much different position than a man with a mission and someone of infiinite and certainly "divine" significance. But as others have stated here I don't think it's smart to turn one's entire understanding of Jesus around one verse. :)

Hmmmm, I dunno waysider. This might shed some clarificiation - PFAL has the section on "The Integrity of the Word of God", where the word "logos" is covered. It goes Christ is the Word, the living logos, and the bible is the written Word, logos, which is made known by the preached Word (that's a synopsis) In that section the word "pros" is covered and defined as "together with yet distinctly independent of". John 1:1 is taught, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God", etc. and that Christ was "with" God in foreknowledge and he cites the verse in Ephesians that we were also in God's foreknowledge and Christ was in God's foreknowledge, just as we were. He was clearly teaching that Jesus Christ wasn't "the Word" as in God is the Word, the Logos. PFAL was the first presentation of the doctine of Christ as "not being God" in the classic Trinitarian sense (if there is such a thing) I heard from the Way. There's a typo or two in that section of the syllabus that I received in 1968, but the overall text of that session is consistent with what VPW taught over the years, as far as I can see and remember. And given all the hooplah that JCING received later it's of note that John 1:1 and the rest of what's taught around it is actually contained as a part of a larger topic, the integrity of the "Word" that covers the importance of the bible as a written record and communication that can be studied and understood, with an inherent consistency and reliability that can be recognized. "Logos" is covered from different angles from the bible. I'd say he didn't have a direct connection to any specific "Trinitarian" doctrine at that time, and since PFAL was the presentation of what he'd been doing for years before that, I'd assume that it all got collated for PFAL. There was an initial attempt at filming that I remember hearing about and saw a few clips that were till floating around for a few years, his own first stab at doing it and they were pretty raw looking, by comparison. I don't know what that contained in it in regards to this topic but by the time he accepted the need to do a professional filming, I think it would be safe to say he held no Trinitarian views, in my view. That line in PFAL - coming back as "Lord God Almighty" - I remember in context thinking he meant something along the lines of "on behalf of", or "for" and kind of jumbled up what he was trying to say which at that point was one of those bible thumping moments in PFAL. It seemed funny later the more it was pointed out, in contrast to what he'd taught so emphatically about John 1:1 and "the logos".

Speaking of John Lynn, I mean The Way, I mean - what's this thread about - ??? I did come up with something to contribute on the Trinity stuff - the PFAL platform of it being illogical. One thing that wasn't solid in the PFAL presentation was the argument that the "math" doesn't work, the "1 + 1 + 1 = 1" conundrum that the "Trinity Classic" was presented as. Per PFAL "spiritual law" and principle, "truth", always supercedes or trumps "physical law" or fact. I was say that the nature of God is a "spiritual" truth and reality. Thus, the laws of mathematics don't have to be applied to God in order for my understanding to "make sense" to me, if they don't "work". Physical fact doesn't define spiritual truth, although it may corroborate it and be a product of it. This is a basic premise of understanding the bible accurately, in PFAL. So there could be a great deal about God that requires the human mind to accept it "as is", on the basis of it being "true" and not on the basis of it being "logical" by human analysis. In fact even further PFAL teaches that learning and knowing what the bible says is required to correctly balance our 5 senses grasp and understanding of anything and everything be it spiritual or physical. Clearly, the Addition method of defining the Trinity from PFAL doesn't work. 1 Apple 1 Orange 1 Banana Equals 1 basket (albeit small) of "Fruit". 1 cluster of grapes Equals many individual grapes, all the same thing - "grapes" but all different. Or maybe more appropos: 1 Cucumber 1 Lettuce 1 Tomato Equals 1 basket of "Vegetables" Although everyone knows that a tomato is technically a "fruit" because it's the fruit of a tomato plan it's referred to as a fruit and a veggie, depending on how it's used. But nearly everyone that uses a tomato as a cooking ingredient would include it in a list of vegetables to buy at the market. Applying that kind of "logic" to a "spiritual" context would lead to all kinds of possibilities. The body of Christ is referred to as "One Body", yet it has a Head and many members all of which make "One Body" of Christ, yet the title of "Body" implies something different than the individual parts in the same way an intestine isn't a "body" but is required to have one, or at least one like we have. In the Body of Christ, God fills all, and is in all, through Christ. The relationship of all of the components isn't linear or clearly understood by separating out the individual parts, lining them up and out and looking at them - it's only understood when we view the whole. Or at least known as a way to view it, if not actually understood. While I personally don't accept the entire tradition of a "Trinity" where Jesus Christ is actually "God", I don't think that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is easily understood when reduced to a simplistic statement like "He was a perfect man". By the same token I don't think I can say that God "is" Jesus Christ and leave it at that. Jesus Christ is quoted as saying "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father". I think when considering the nature of God and Jesus Christ having a purpose of "the Way, truth and life", to reveal God clearly to mankind, that statement can make "sense" if taken on face value.