socks

The Way did, many times, johnj. This may have been already noted but yes, it was stated, "taught" that way. I can't speak for what was presented after I left, in '89 so it may have changed drastically after that. The idea of it "working" - that tithing and sharing "abundantly" over the 10% tithe was key to a person's well being and success - was taught as a result of doing it. There's actually two basic concepts that the earlier CSBP presented - tithing and "giving". Tithing as an Old Testament practice to honor God from a person's "first fruits" by offering 10 % of it to honor God, and giving as taught by Jesus Christ, "as you give so shall you receive". Tithing then being a formal practice or ritual performed as a basic recognition of God's blessings and providence. Giving as a practice of sharing with others in any form. The Way's interpretation of tithing was very rudimentary but at one time at least it was a matter of personal choice, meaning that no one "had" to or was denied access to the normal activities of the Way like fellowships and informal activities. Classes of cours cost money, the teaching ministry had a price tag to it. VPW always made fun of other organizations and only begrudgingly respected those who prospered like the Mormons, crediting it to the regular practice of tithing and sharing to their church. It wasn's rocket science or advanced spirituality (although that was promoted), it was really just recognizing the results of a group of people who all grouped together in common support of their church. (I remember at one time a year where the fellowship I held turned out to be "#2" in "abundant sharing" collected, out of an Area where there were about 20 fellowships active. The #1 fellowship that tab'd in for that same year was composed of people who owned businesses and had fairly successful professional careers. This was reported to me at the start of the following year, as a kind of "way to go!" piece of information. At the same time it was very telling - our fellowship was small, 8 regular attendees throughout the year and there wasn't large, regular amounts of money collected, by any means. What this told me, and I talked to the Area Coordinator about it - was that it was clear that everyone didn't give regularly to the Way. Not that that was a bad thing - it was simply a fact by all appearances. The only thing our fellowship did was give consistently, but we in fact didn't "tithe" out of strict obligation. There was a period where myself and another couple didn't for a month or two because at the time both of our families were doing well to pay the bills. So we were very flexible with it, while still trying to do what we thought to be "the right thing". Fast forward about 3 years and the Limb Coordinator reported that that state had hit the "million dollar" mark for the previous year. I don't, didn't have access to the records but I knew the growth for those previous few years throughout the state had been consistent and steady. My guesstimate at the time was that the increase in numbers, coupled with some level of consistency on the part of a certain percentage of the active members accounted for the increases reported. But I seriously doubt it was due in that state to everyone tithing and giving to the Way because I knew people in our own Area who simply didn't at all. I only mention all of this because I "think" that later, after so many people left the Way in the late 80's, the Trustees, LCM specifically, must have seen the income to the Way go way way down, and very quickly. It appears he realized that the large numbers would no longer produce a segment of regular, consistent tithers to the Way and those who remained weren't enough to make do. So he hammered down on the rule of practice for tithing and made it compulsory for "standing believers" in the "household". Basically in his mind, no "freeloaders". Add to that the debacle of putting all Way Corps on salary, and it's no wonder Howard Allen was reported as saying they nearly ran out of money at one point. (the reported cause he stepped down from Trustee level position and "retired")

yah, that's some cranky pants Wayfer there, TLB! I don't know, Chas, maybe that's what "sight unseen" means! I'm sorry you got winged like that Thomas, I'm sure it was disconcerting and Talksoup did the right thing by banning that kind of behavior, at least as it would result from their public blog. Geez o' Pete. Those Wayfers got pretty teed off there, for a sec. I can't find the blog anymore, maybe it distappeared. ? Funny though - there seemed to be less interest amongst the pro-Wafyfers in taking Talksoup or the host to task than in challenging the people who posted there who are non-Wayfers. I guess it's okay to make fun of the Way's efforts to communicate via song *kak* and dance *glaff* and parody the Voice of God telling them to literally STOP doing what they're doing...than it is to speak out about the Way as a former member. Interesting. Very interesting. I dunno - if I was an innocent bystander I'd wonder what the glafuffel was really goin' on behind those spiffy curtains.

Looks like their blog slowed down about 9/19. I liked reading it "as is", to get a read on the voice of the average web viewer. These comments from some genius were as funny as the video though: cults dont change leadership you idiot oh and dont just make up **** that you think is true cause you think it sounds good... there was no sexual abuse, YOU get real kid. Craig had consensual affairs with two women and that was handled in court and he isnt there anymore... Dr. W had been dead for years and in no was had affairs or even came close to sexually abusing anyone. Get your **** together man... and grow up its 2008 That person has obviously been fed the Way Line and has a very limited view and understanding of the Way's history. He/she/it appears to be separating VPW out from LCM's "affairs" and lawsuits blah blah blah. It's funny how Wayfers are so often willing to just bury Craig, just leave him hanging out to dry ... but can't see, don't know or don't want to anything else beyond or before him. It's easier to ignore everything else and dump it all on Craig, making him the magnet for everything that was "wrong". That way - get rid of Craig and "they're all gone now" - problem solved. Sad. But still, kinda funny in it's own way.

It's on the Wayfer site HERE Tzaia- couple minutes in. Keep in mind their reference to "shredding" was tongue in cheek, although the solo itself is decent enough, and ends with a series of hammer-ons on open string. The end starts to get a head of steam going but of course they have to ham it up. None of this really sounds that good, so don't blame me if your hubbie isn't "blessed". :blink: (I don't know what his range is, but he could check out Guthrie Govan's stuff on youtube for basic shredding 101 fer free. He does some funny facials on , which sort of puts the topic to bed from about 1:20 on ) Actually he gets it back up for cookies and milk and does even better faces.

Diggin' the Weigh Brain T-Bone! Heavy Stuff!!! The term can be used cruelly and often is. I tend to think it gets slung too loosely. But - if I wrote someone was "misguided", that isn't cruel, or mean, or lacking in courtesy, at face value. I could write "White Dove's definition is misguided, at best" where misguided means that the reasoning being used to come up with a definition isn't sound, correct, or well thought out and as a result the definition doesn't make sense - in my estimation. I can try to prove that, give examples and evidence. It's not mean, uncourteous or cruel to write that or say that, IMO. But it could be, stated differently - "White Dove's misguided effort to define "waybrain" only goes to show that the Dove has flown the coop once too many times and isn't flying straight. Take a break, White Dove, you're showing serious wing wear". That's clearly different. I'm taking a shot at the Dovester. It's demeaning. Anyway, to me "waybrain" mostly implies relating to Way related topics and subjects using only the information provided by the Way itself or it's materials. Like trying to define a word by using the same word - exa: waybrain means to have a way brain, etc.

The kids, yeah, they could be the source. I'm sure they've got the good stuff George! Maybe it's the corn. All those years of ROA tent camping and the ground got infiltrated by some kind of micro-biological buggies or something. Where's Bless Patrol when you need 'em?! Clothing - yeah. I dunno. I remember the need to look "godly" and "professional". I got to like the jacket and slacks look, kind of casual IBM. But I don't know who's behind it today. The 3 piece business suit is appropriate for most religious endeavors, as I've yet to see or hear of any formal religious presentation that doesn't include a Money Collection. "Missionary Bankers"? But it's weird. Suits and long dresses are the vestments of a lot of modern day church deities and their marketing staff apparently. I wonder what they'd all be wearing if the textiles industry hadn't progressed so? (men and women "of the cloth"?....?) They need help. Badly. In the meantime, a moratorium on all forms of artistic expression, pending a complete brain-dump and rebuild would be right, if not outright kind.

Nat, you're The Man. It would have taken me awhile to hear about it, I'm sure. I've been too busy to monitor my Google Alerts for "Bizarre and Embarrassing Things Related to the Topic of Religion". I think everyone felt like you upon stumbling onto it - everyone knows someone they "have" to share it with who'll pea their pants laughing when they see it. It's the kind of grass roots on the ground word of mouth the Way would love to see, I'm sure, if it was positive. But I also noticed online people looking at the Way's site directly, and finding their other videos. They're all so boring because the Wayfers are just singing verbatim their normal doctrine in twisted english. I read a few blogs, tongue in cheek references to the one "rock" tune and the "shredding" in it, and I felt a twinge of pain for that guitarist as he may have had a pretty good solo cooked up but there was someone there editing him to tone it down, as it sounds like half a solo. The resigned look on his face says it all. I was reminded of all the non-musicians who lectured other musicians once they got involved with Way Productions. Don Weirwille was the ultimate buzz-kill in that category but I guess he figured if "Dad" could do it, so could he, never mind he couldn't push a tune in a cart. But the lyrics are so insular and filled with Wayfer jargon that they're impossible to understand - they really leave the listener asking "why is this being done?" rather than any kind of understanding or GASP! entertainment value being experienced. Notawayfer - is that Mrs. Linder? I have no idea who the people are, just that it reminds me of what "Up With People" would have looked like if Amish accidentally ate peyote in their stew and could only communicate what had happened through dance.

People, we're losing track of the real topic here, and as Twinky stated so well: Innies - get ready to serve! Indeed - Ineez start your engines and break out the kneepads, there's work to be done and fortunately you'll be able to do more of it, faster and better as you won't need to sell all of your stuff for a dime on the dollar, loan what's left to people who will never return it, quit your job, break your leases and do whatever else is required to be where you need to be when you need to be there which would probably be somewhere half way across the country from where you are now...no, you'll be able to stay right where you are and serve. Which begs the question, tell us again why there's a program needed for that, to stay right where I am and do what I could be doing anyway? I suspect the current price of gas has something to do with it and the Way will certainly want to gloat while receiving the required bowing and scraping from their grateful followers for doing what any normal citizen is doing anyway - staying at home. Indeedy doo, there's probably some "revelation" involved, "guidance", still small voices in the night whispering "4 dollars a gallon - when it hits 5 she's a gonna blow!" So surely this is the day, the time, the place, the best thing to do for anyone who wants to be doing the best thing and who wouldn't? Best of all this will allow those who Sign Up To Serve to step into a special Place of Bestness in their local fellowships where they can be recognized for their service and be Good Examples of What It Means To Be The Best. Really, who can afford NOT to sign up to serve?

I hope so, Nato. I had no idea this had spread so quickly, but after reading page after page of Googled pages that had the video it's plain to see how many picked up on it. And anyone can go to the Way's site and see this one plus their others so chances are good this ain't gonna go away for awhile. Anyone looking for a good laugh will be checking in from time to time to see what weirdness The Way is up to lately. One thing I noticed is how many people are surprised to see that this stuff was produced and performed within the last year or so - thinking it was old and from the 80's or 90's and finding out this is "now" at the Way and cleary their expression of "hip". Another is that a lot of people seem to be relatively kind in their responses. Talk Soup's take on it is hilarious, and most people seem to almost be treating it as if it would be cruel to make too much of a joke out of it as The Way's so obviously serious about it. And oddly - a lot of people seem to think they're "Baptists". Check this one out dmiller.... Perhaps the best thing I've found is this site, that reviews Youtube stuff - it's the 2nd or 3rd in - scroll to the video to watch it as they still have it - the woman's reaction really says it all. Thanks Natster! This has been a busy week for me and this really brought some humor to the day. I've copied some of the more interesting blog posts I found online, below - [*]so did anybody else's gay-dar warn that a lightning bolt might strike the dude any second ? [*]That guy has got some serious Crazy Eyes! [*]Please tell me he's on some sort of watch list… [*]You can find several more gems on the site, but this rockin' anthem about god as "seed" is my favorite..... [*]I'm going to quit my job and just sit around all day watching this over and over. [*] Blessed are the meek … but if you post our dang we'll sue you. [*]The remix was GREAT but I really think the original is PRICELESS!!! Was God sitting up in heaven thinking "How can I possibly make the Baptists more dorky than they already are? I KNOW! I'll make them try to dance!!! LOL That will be funny! Wait till the Apostles see this!" [*]I was sent this by a friend and I laughed so hard! I love when the guy does his solo dance….It is so bad it is good. [*]Jesus was definitely a carpenter, because the blonde girl is giving me wood. [*]christians frown upon homosexuality, right? [*] well, it's a good thing dancing jesus man in the middle is completely straight.otherwise, that would be ironic. [*]Keep your eye on the guy in the center. You'll know why soon enough. I'm making a Christians category for stuff like this. [*]Tags: Funny, Religion, Bizarre, Dancing, Jesus, Christianity, Christian, contemporary christian music, christ, God, the renewed mind is the key, hmmm, live music, church singers, The Way International, denomination, Jesus is shaking his head right now, God wants no credit for this [*]I can't believe that Christians aren't taken seriously… [*]Yea, but didn't your hear the people clap? It must have been good. [*]Can you really tell me that the devil didn't have ANY part in that? Seriously. [*]As if we needed more evidence that white people can't dance. Although I suppose it was nice to include someone's mom in the act.

Buzzkill, man!

Aaaah. Yes. How exciting! Talk Soup says it exactly how I thought it while watching that video. Please. Stop. Just...stop. Any idea how they got wind of it, Nato? Or does the need to stop the madness scream so loudly that it was just a matter of time?

Hi John, thanks for the response. Yes, we're happy. :) I do benefit greatly from the gracious twist of life that brought her into mine. I don't use the word "recovery" to describe my passage through these last many years. I understand it, and how it can apply however. For whatever reasons, I don't sense that I "recovered" from something. It seems like a long string of years and events lived that are still counting. Fortunately. Although there were some negative influences through my own involvement with the Way, not many that stuck. All remembered, yes. There were actually quite a few good ones, odd though that may seem to some. I can only speak for myself, really and my family. I view them as lessons learned, things I got through or past and eventually balanced into some level of understanding that works for me. Is that recovery? If so, I don't feel like it's an ongoing effort. What's done is done. This was all a long time ago, nearly 18 years but nothing ever seemed to be a deal breaker once we "left". I'm a what you see is what you get kind of person. I don't believe that the past is ever completely "gone" though - in fact I think present-state and current existence is the compilation of everything that's completed up to that point. At any given point we are exactly who we've been. Period. I've often pondered why life is like that rather than a series of disconnected events that could be handled separately, but that would require an entire retooling of hmm, everything. Still, I can manually review and then respond to specific instances and events out of sequence, which I would describe as going to the recovery efforts and processes that we use or try to, when we do. At this exact moment however I'm making the material I can recall at the next point of recognition, well, I am and a lot of other forces other than me. But at the next point I take a measurement I can only really directly perceive what is happening at that moment, and any others before in retrospect aren't negotiable. I may not even know exactly what they mean or how they stack up at that point, but they're viewable, "remembered". An unchangeable past makes for an interesting present that's always fluid and in forward motion. Living in the moment successfully is difficult I find. So I try - "try" to use caution and care proceeding. That's where my relationship figures in, I think, yes. That's a point of trust and familiarity that I can weigh in against. There's also a joined awareness, one that we share, together. So we're kind of joined at the mental hip so to speak. It does help, yes.

Naked vacuuming!!!!! Man, I always miss the good stuff!!!! I highly recommend that no rules be invoked preventing nude vacuuming. I mean, after all, we need to allow for the outer extremes of dissenting voices and opinions. I think that in the interest of fairness it should be, no must be, allowed. Better than any rule, actions speak louder than words. Freedom to vacuum in all manners of dress, undress, clothing styles, accessories and accoutrements of all types needs to be allowed. Likewise with feather dusting and any other method of choice to reduce the amount of dust and dirt on floors, walls, window coverings, wall art and even ceilings. It just seems like the right thing to do.

Ahh! Thanks DWBH, and one and all! Apprciate it, and your sentiments have been received in the spirit with which they've been given. Thanks again! I have reached a true milestone, and finally hit the big "39" - again! I see the graffiti from past swipes at this mark and the path is getting a bit worn but it's nice to be here. Again. Thanks again, folks. I missed the original greetings, esconced in the affairs of this life. Thank you for remembering, DWBH!! Speaking of popcorn - haaaa! Conosman didn't realize he had a "5 for 1" discount on his candy bars!

Hi John. Have looked through your site and posts here, and just wanted to say how encouraging your approach is. I particularly noticed your effort to put visibility into how you charge - I think that's admirable. Very upfront, designed to accomodate, reasonable. I'm sure you could charge more. A lot of how I view my time in the Way is based on the fact that I felt, by my own mind, self-directed. Yes, there's a "spiritual" component to that, as a Christian I feel that God has been involved in my life, my family's. Yet, I have always had a clear sense of "self", who I am. That's been defined to a great degree by my relationship with my wife, who I've known since I was a teenager, and been married to since I was 20. So that relationship and our own vision for ourselves has been part of my baseline for - well, my whole adult life, really. Everything else comes "into" that so to speak, influences yes but never takes control. That's kind of vague but I hope it makes sense. I'm coming up on 38 years of marriage with my wife and one thing we both feel strongly about is the value of communication, being able to "just talk". Not having anyone to share with, be open and honest with is difficult for many people we've known. GS speaks to that I think, the open forum for just saying what's on a person's mind. I thnk it's part of the foundation for a healthy mental and emotional state. Wanted to ask too - I'd be curious as to how you see the discussions that go on here - not asking for a judgment but just a read from you on the types of exchanges that occur on GS. Any suggestions, advice? What works, helps, etc. Your perspective?

Jeff - as George has noted, Donnie F has died, several years ago. Before his time, I'd say, relatively young, in his 50's I believe. He's missed by many, and is remembered well by myself and many others, no doubt. It's normative for the Way to take this perspective, defining "life" by a few limited factors - adherence to their own codes and regulations, beliefs and of course current involvement in their organization. Fall out of favor with them and you're "dead" by their standards. It's not surprising that some splinter groups would have similar attitudes, IMO, again as George stated, religion (by definition I think) doesn't exist in a vacuum. That you, Donnie or anyone might be "dead" to such a group says a lot about the group, as clearly Donnie is but you aren't. So I think you have to consider the source, as it sounds like you have. "Dead" can also be used as a euphimism for "defenseless". Look at the "greasespot by midnight" slogan. Used that way it's diminutive, reducing the value of someone to nil. Not much positive or uplifting about that. A person's worth can be evaluated by many standards - the most basic and obvious one is simply being alive, a living breathing soul that expects to greet the new day with mind and body intact. That alone is a miracle worth celebrating. You - non repeatable and unique, the only one of you that has ever been or will ever be - how can anyone not see the miracle in that? Low appreciation indicates lack of vision. Glad to see you're present and accounted for. :) Wanted to add a question - you've referred to a "splinter group" and it's leader. What group is this? I'm really curious.

If you search by the name of the html pages, you'll find the home for them. These aren't "all" of VPW's teachings, by any means. They might all be his, though, not sure. I just did a quick glance though, and it looks like some or all were scanned in from documents, as there's one named "OCR" in the page title, forget which.

Wow - at this length, it would be wrong not to keep it going! Spec - your example of a "change" made is a very minor one. It really illustrates VPW's lack of ability to change. PFAL never changed. The material wasn't edited or adjusted to reflect that particular piece of information. PFAL was viewed as the absolute best that VPW or anyone could ever do in presenting the teaching. Keeping that class as the ultimate gold-standard was one of the biggest things that held the Way back over time, IMO. Regardless of what changed around it, time after time everyone returned to the same material, same presentation, over and over again.

"The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God, therefore any inconsistencies can be explained by errors in translation or transmission. That is the typical approach of Bible fundamentalists who argue for inerrancy." So much has to be assumed to even get off first base with the statement "the bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God"...The Way's approach - typical - is that the effort to resolve inconsistencies is a worthy endeavor - establishing the correct "Word of God". But there's an element of faith to the effort, to get off the dime - that the bible is in fact the Word of God, to begin with. So let's say the bible is the Word of God. We know the net result of what we have today is far from perfect. So the effort goes into resolving inconsistencies. "Errors". Stuff that doesn't make sense or by comparison to other information doesn't appear to be right. That's inconsistent with a God who's perfect and who would only produce perfect work. Something must be wrong, so some work has to be done to determine what God was trying to "say" to begin with, to the people that He communed with who were led, inspired, to write those things down. But back up a minute baby. We're already knee deep in a kettle of fish. There is next to nothing, little, diddly squatros, that we can see that's been produced by God that's even close to being "perfect". Not to say that some things aren't pretty dammed good. But what's "perfect" anyway? What does that mean? God's perfect - God expresses Himself, so the outcomes are perfect - okay. So what's going on, that we seem to manage to screw everything up? Things definitely get screwed up, if God's work has to fulfill the criteria of being "perfect". Not to mention that once things are screwed up, they have to be restored to perfect-state to be fully understood and appreciated. Don't know if this makes sense, but for a long time now, the concept of the bible meeting the criteria of being "perfect" and completely right and accurate, word for word and from every possible angle - just seems kind of...unusual. As a whole, the universe we are slowly learnin about is wondrous, beautiful, powerful, inspiring, sometimes outright scarey...but is it "perfect" and completely free of inconsistencies? I think there may be a case to make that to insist that the bible be brought to a state of complete "accuracy" by human perception may be completely abnormal and unrealistic. Not to say that God isn't. But from out of the "mouth" of God breathes...life. The Word. The Logos. It may be that we're better served by being motivated and inspired to put our ears to His lips, bringing what we can to the conversation and the wisdom of those who have come before and Heard that Voice - and go for it.

The WayGB just doesn't understand that if someone is happy with twi, it doesn't matter what they read, it will bounce right off them. But if someone has gotten to the point where they know in their own gut that something is rotten in Denmark, what others may say will only CONFIRM to them what they already think. Sorry guys... no devil spirit influence causing the change of heart, just cold hard facts. Highway, and Penguin, thanks for your posts. I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there. It's bizarre, no question about it. By hiding things, not telling all they knew and basically lying to people, the Way leadership tilled the soil for the seeds of their own corruption to grow. Doubt Worry Fear Which results in unbelief. That's their mantra. Well, by not holding forth the honest truths and facts of what was going on in a timely manner, doubt in their integrity was produced when anyone learned more. People tell themselves, well there's a reason they're not telling us. There must be a good reason. But after awhile, they realize - there's no good reason, they're just not trusting us to know the whole truth. So distrust increases, on both sides. Worry's a reasonable outcome of that - worry as to why? Why not be honest? Why allow the "other side" to tell their story and not tell theirs? Is something wrong? A person can tell themselves nothing's wrong over and over but a person's natural desire to protect themselves and those close to them will kick in at some point - it should. Fear - the honest expectation that what's going on needs to be avoided is the natural outcome of that. And the "super" natural outcome too - the spiritually minded person wil smell a rat because the progression isn't a positive one, it's a negative one. That's why - from a Wayfer's view - Magnelli's claims and statements are so clearly a problem. What he said they'd do makes sense - well, sure! Of course, that's the right way to handle this, and they will. When they didn't, you had to figure something was wrong. Even if it was just observation over time of the lack of information a lot of people are just going to figure something's wrong and want to resolve it. Some people didn't - don't - care. So it won't ever matter to them. Until it becomes personal and then as you say, it'll be different. Ultimately IMO what was 'wrong' wasn't limited to Martindale's lawsuit, it was the entire shifty less-than-upfront manner in which they handled their people.

He's a kid, with hopes of a football career and getting an education. Give 'im a break. What he thinks is of interest to the sports community and they wrote about what he's doing. Because as we all know, sports figures have insight into life and we should all be interested in what they're doing, and thinking. Once you've had enough minor concussions, insight is the logical result so it only makes sense, the amount of attention we give to sports figures. If he gets his degree and does well it will be because he applies himself and works his azs off, bible or no bible. That writer's a goof - he's nuts about his comparison to Catholicism. Remember - it's media. You can be dammed sure that if there was a big new story and coverage on a Catholic pedo-priest getting sued and it was in the news, he'd be croaking a different tune and less likely to run a point-blank story with no reference to it at all - his editor might be inclined to sit on it for awhile. He's defending his stance only because there's no media coverage on the Way - if readers decide to research the Way they'll find ample information to refer to.

That may have been the one - Ham? Al P plays The Devil in that one. Reeves plays the lawyer who gets the molester off. It's a good flick. I like Reeves, and Pacino's Pacino, what can you say?

I'll keep pickin' away here, hope you don't mind. Highway: Well, keep in mind the "stay off the internet" command actually started when the net was fairly new and not everyone had access at home and at work. Even during the first lawsuit it wasn't meant to say you couldn't use the internet for "legitimate purposes". What they meant was "don't randomly surf the net with little or no specific purpose in mind"... You know, an idle mind is the devil's playground. Highway - that's actually the first time I've heard that the 'net didn't have a flat out "don't use it" dictum to it. Legitmiate purposes, makes sense. Although I still have a real problem with the idea of Wayfer's getting so deep into each others shorts. Encouragement, sure. Fine. They're entitled to live how they want as long as the don't break the law and don't interfere with others too much. So now I'm wondering - was there a point where the collateral damage from the 'net was so high that they became more insistent? Or was it entirely focused on WayDale and other sites reporting negatively on the Way? Bramble: Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting. There was an odd license to snort that prevailed in the promiscuous land of Martindale, for sure. Which might be a weird testament to how boring it can get in WayWorld. Maybe it seemed kinda sexy to some of them. Gettin' all mad like that. And he did have lots of emulators. Sort of a sideshow aspect to it, I think. Religion is definitely a performance art, and has a long history to show for it. The anger bit is rude, though. Y'know, settle down Beavis - take it outside please. Frank123lol: yelling is still yelling whether you are right or wrong. So true.

You think God would have given revelation to somebody a lot sooner to help keep things clean? Maybe He did, but nobody listened. Or, perhaps He remained silent for some greater good. I guess it all depends on your theology. I don't believe that God is ever silent. I don't believe that God ever inserts Himself into our lives in such a way that it would cause harm either, harm being counter productive to our own well being and continuance. There are however limitations, described as far back as Genesis, with "Adam and Eve". The nature of this life we currently have is that there will be conflict, struggle and opposing forces, not only from an "adversary" but also because we as a people aren't unified or "one", we are many and we function independently and as individuals. Our "free will" or ability to choose is, IMO, largely seen less in how we decide for ourselves alone and more in how we decide to live and function together as a group and therein is seen the chaotic march of mankind. Within that we have the challenge to learn and build, as long as we live. Two records that speak to that are Jeremiah 18, and Isaiah 64:8, a snapshot view. I see Jeremiah as the long view, so to speak, of God's working witih mankind.

ChasU: I remember the tape that LCM sent out to household fellowship coordinators and their assistants back in 1999, when we were told, "Stay off the internet!" It was then that I KNEW something ugly was brewing. So, I went on the internet to find out what it was! Viva Waydale! We often were told "it's none of your business!" or "why do you want to know?" or "you'll find out what you need to know when you need to know it!" "You were such a great believer once and we really thought you'd go in the Corps and really make something of your life. It was on Waydale that MANY innies were able to learn what was really going on. They stopped asking leadership what had happened or why because they got their answers from a much better source. TWI Gestapo shouldn't have been surprised when people sought other sources for their information IF TWI Gestapo had been smart..... G.St.G: It sort of begs the question, "What would TWI be like now if they HAD told the membership what was going on?" There probably would have been an exodus of the outraged, but I suspect that a lot of others would have remained, because it was the stonewalling that turned them off. Their pattern was duplicitous, to say the least. Tell certain things, the most basic high level information that wouldn't elude to the fact that anything was really wrong but paint the problem as one of malcontents making trouble. Tell everyone not to go on the internet and start poking around. (knowing WayDale's online) (Keeping in mind that even as LCM said that he knew completely different. He knew the bell ringer was gearing up for a tollin'). (Also keep in mind that they went from 0 to 90 in just a few months, with LCM ultimately being fired and stripped of all official status and recognition with the Way. SOMEthing must have been brewing all those months that wasn't uh, salted.) Then - if anyone asks about anything that wasn't covrered in the meetings or letters or tapes - it's a dead giveaway that they've been getting information from alternative sources. A ha!!! You've been on the internet, exercising your God-given right to choose, think and evaluate. No WONDER you're at cross purposes to the Way! They think. Apparently they were assuming that no one else is thinking because if anyone is, they're bound to come up with a few questions with or without the internet, regardless. Like "What's going on?" Again - the horse that can't be beat - Rico Magnelli's statement to make these matters visible and clear to their membership was a mighty claim, honorable and full or promise. If only it had been so. I agree GeorgeStGeorge - in theory. I would think that if there had been some reasonable effort to provide the kind of A-to-Z detail that was promised, a lot of people might have acted differently. Like, they might have tried to actively help, instead of being asked to loiter around with prayer cloths in-hand, waiting for the Next Big Lie to come down the pike.