socks

No this isn't about design, Bolsh. I'm not viewing this as an ontological discussion either, I'm not at the point of identifying an inherent taxonomy or hierarchy to organize these points conclusively in this discussion. The example of gold is a good one though, as the form changes in the process you describe but the gold stays the same. I wouldn't choose a flat lateral, one-to-one view of death in relationship to life, based on observation, is my point. On another thread you wrote "death began in Genesis as a result of rebellion. If God kills someone for any reason, who cares? Everyone is going to die someday anyway." What did that statement mean, to you? Light reflects and reveals. Jesus's statement doesn't present the option of light or darkness, rather those words suggest that how a person chooses to "see" will determine how much of either they allow. Darkness reveals nothing, light makes clear. It's really about a person's mindset. "Seek and you will find" is a good example of that, to me. Don't seek and you don't find, it's pretty simple really. Or funble around without a clue and you may bump into something or get bumped into by something. In that way everyone can be a victim, but not everyone is always a victim. When we make clear choices we may be duped but our actions take us on a path, and it can be one we wouldn't choose if we had better, greater information and perspective at the time. In this topic we could ask "Would VPW have done some of the things he did, made the choices he did at the time he did, if he'd really understood fully the ramifications?" I don't know the answer to that.

To add - "ladder climbing" is the wrong visual. Get a short ladder, you don't go very high. In fact, you never go higher than your ladder. A vertical model of progression is limiting. How high is high enough? Will I know it when I get there? A horizontal model works better, in my opnion. Exchange, collaboration, shared resources. "Leadership" in a march....goes thataway, maybe in front but there's still shoe leather being burned, y'know?

To my way of thinking there is an identifiable void, yes, Bolshevik. I would base that on a comparison of two things, one of those being the nature of life. I'm going to make some "big fat claims" here, very general statements, to keep this brief. First, it's been accepted that life has a "lifespan", when it's recognized in a system, entity - a plant, an animal, humans. Observation tells us that life begins and ends, proliferating along the way but any single instance of an independent "living" organism or system tends to come...and go. Yet at the same time it's understood that energy can constantly change form, transfer but not be destroyed, or no longer exist. There would appear to be a case for at least suggesting that what we see as live/die, come/go isn't the only way to view existence. Proliferation itself indicates to me that life is interested in continuing, not ending. In fact, that an organism can have the capacity to grow, change, proliferate, protect itself and survive would indicate that the ultimate outcome for "life" would not have to be to "die". I think you've addressed that observation elsewhere if I'm not mistaken. I would make a differentiation between "die" and "change" or "contiunue". And that process could be said - could be - said to actually give all indications that if allowed to continue life would never end. "Allowed" is a loaded term - I mean that since we observe that plants, animals and humans, all that we see, does indeed eventually fail, I'd have to ask the question if that is in fact "normal" or the logical outcome for an organism that appears to be designed to continue indefinitely. So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean? So yes, I see a "void", or in other words a level of understanding that begs to be revealed. But as you say, if the work is expended towards remaining static, that could certainly be at cross purposes to the ideas of growth, change and continuance. I don't think for a second that all I experienced and saw over the years I was in the Way was wishful thinking or a regurgitation of what I thought someone else wanted . I can't account for why some see nothing where others see somethng although I think Bergson's line offers a possible explanation. I've always used the example of a light being turned on. In darkness one minute and then - even for a moment - the light's on and your vision is clear. When that happens, you see clearly for a moment and it's impossible to forget what you saw. The memory may dim and diffuse itself over time but it's harder to deny it than it is to just accept it. And when the light starts going on more than it's off - what was once dim comes into clearer focus. Jesus is recorded to have said, in Matthew" "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" It's similar to Bergson's thought. If we choose to see darkness or turn a "blind eye" to what's in front of us - that's what we see. Or don't. "Seek and you will find". "Open your eyes". It's a worthy adominition to all of us I think.

"One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership." That is a very general statement Bolsh. I would disagree, although not completely. The concept of inertia falls into play here - the tendency of an object to remain consistent with it's current state until and unless another force effects it. People - humans - are such complex organisms with individual decision making ability that inertia can't account for every outcome. And what you're describing is very much like inertia - that if enough people all say something the tendency would be for others entering the same conditions to say the same thing. But, of course it won't work that way because each person is completely different. Or using a card game and odds of cards appearing from a deck, card counting won't allow you to estimate the next cards if the cards dealt always go back into the deck and get reshuffled - the odds are the same, or similar with each new deal from each "new" deck. Social interactions could be described the same way - if the group is made up of the same people all the time you would start to see a social order construct itself, seeking first to establish order and maintain continuance and to insure it's own well being and safety - but as new people enter into a group they bring their own expectations and contributions as well as decision making ability, so - in theory - you'd have to account for the cause(s) of the process you describe using other methods. I'm not going to argue in favor of any one or a set of influences but they could include rewards, recognition, fear, safety, advancement, influence - a whole range of things. In a group like the Way it could also include things like knowledge, understanding and lots of other less tangible hmmm, things. "The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend" is a quote from the French philosopher Henri Bergson. I think it could apply to the discussion here, although not in the way it might sound. People will tend to interpret what they see in the way their mind understands it. However it's when we see things that we don't understand that our mind has the opportunity to consider what it is we "think" we see. And it's entirely possible to see something and not understand it and inquire further. That's where I would agree with you, to the extent that if a person decides to remain static they may not inquire further (into a thing, anything) and if they do only to support what they already know. But - and this is a big butt - if there is a "God" and a "spirit world" as you refer to it, we have to consider that. What is it, what are it's intents and purposes and what effect does that have on all of this? I would say your position doesn't account for the possibility that there is that aspect to our lives individually and collectively that effects what we do and the outcomes and if ignored will leave a void we can't ever fully explain or ignore. Well, it can be ignored, always, but that won't make it go away, regardless of claims to it's existence or non-existence.

"The point is -- if it isn't easily dicernable - that it isn't surprising to me and has roots in issues far bigger than education ultimately." I would agree. Family environment, parenting, what's happening in the home, all of that figures in. If the parents assume that education happens in the school system and that's "their job" the child could have a tough time, particularly today when school's are struggling to maintain curriculum standards, materials, teachers, etc. etc. The schools where we live have done a decent job overall but have had some serious break downs over the years. Some years, teachers have come into the system, instituted their own curriculum and approach to teaching, stay a couple years and then leave. The Principals change every few years - in the high school here that position rotated every year, for years. The School Board juggled increasing confusing requirements, testing standards as well as teacher preferences, plus the constant concern for funding and administration. Net result - our kids would go from one grad to the next in elementary and some years it was like they were starting all over, with little or no connection to what had been done previously. It got so bad by the time my son hit Middle School that they had a teacher who ran the class by student preference - each student picked the chapter of the years text book they wanted to study and the teacher "assisted" them in learning. There was little or no presentation of the material to the entire class at the same time, and when there was no one understood it if they weren't in that chapter. I spoke to the teacher then the Principal but it was like pulling teeth to get any kind of managment oversight of what was going on. This being the second year that teacher had been there, it finally took the following year's teacher to admit they were having to do months of remedial work to get the students up to par, wasting months of time. It was very difficult to get any kind of recognition of what was going on, despite the fact at least half the parents were concerned and complaining. And this is in a school system in a fairly small town that you'd think would be manageable. It illustrated to me how f@#$%d up the system can be. There were teachers, there were students, there were schools and money was being spent. But the management of the entire system, from the standpoint of curriculum and consistency in delivering it over a 12 year period - in a word, sucked in various years. The result was there were blanks in some years for the kids, depending on what level of chaos was going on. Without some level of involvement and interest in the home, a child completely reliant on the schools would have been lost. At some point whether it was the child themselves and/or their parents, they had to rise above and take control of their own education and make sense out of the chaos. This wasn't all years, all grades or all teachers. But how the school's were run and education executed daily allowed for big breakdowns to occur and when they did it could very difficult to navigate the whole thing to get anything done.

I'd wonder too, how the participants were selected. Harris is the Big Gun in surveys, though. Surveys by phone suck though IMO. Earth surface/water - digging down I know the number is supposed to be 70 percent but I first thought "2/3 rds" off the top of my head. It sound right, between 2/3rd and 3/4 would be my fast answer. It just sounds right even if you don't know exactly and picture the standard image of the earth from space. But I suspect that wouldn't be correct in the poll. People and Dino's - I guess I'm surprised 41 per cent of those polled would answer based solely on religious belief - isn't that the 6,000 year age of the earth thing? I'd actually think that in a poll the answer would be qualified by a lot of people, knowing they were being polled. I'd like to see the question - was it "did dinosaurs and man exist at the same time?" or exactly what? I really find it hard to believe that many adults would answer "yes" without some form of explanation attached and I'd want to know how that was reflected in the results. Dunno.

Thanks for keeping me, uh... Honest.

I-Dan, I was looking at another segment of Acts today, 8:22, the record of Simon and Peter (and John, etc.) A similar idea came to mind. There Peter is witten to have told Simon (after he's offered money for the power of "laying on of hands")... For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Some seriously bad cha-cha, for sure, there. Bond of iniquity could be translated "bound by bad judgment" or "bound by unrighteousness", injustice, a wrong judgment. It's like saying he wasn't just wrong, he was really wrong, and rather bilious in the wrongness. Frank Zappa was once interviewed about his various band members over the years and one of his bass players came up. Some of the band members were out performing under the old "Mothers of Invention" banner and calling the act The Grandmothers or something, a fact he took umbrage at. Can't remember the guy's name, he had a nickname - anyway he'd been out working with Leo Sayer, on the road. Zappa implied that might not be the highest quality music gig and commented "that'll do things to a guy after awhile y'know? So he's not the same guy he was with Mothers of Invention, and won't be without me waving the wand over it" Words to that effect, classic Zappa. And certainly playing an endless series of one-nighers doing "You Make Me Feel Like Dancing" behind a guy in a clown's outfit would do things to you for sure, maybe not good things. Anyhoo-what we do and think and what we harbor inside does indeed "do things" to us. Gall, bile, bad decisions - left untended could very well have a negative effect on us over time, methinks. You could be on to something there. Ana and Saph - "filled" as they were with whatever it was - couldn't have been a good thing.

Now I see why lawyers make so much money.... WATCH THIS now, to see what may be on eBay3000, 91 years from now.

Sounds like you're living a good life, Galen. We're very much "on the grid" as they say, so outside of a banner year for tomatoes and melons, and some smoked this and that, we eat out of the fridge. But I have been researching freshwater prawn farming, small scale. Real small. Don't know if that'll ever get off the paper and into the water but it's an interesting field. Glad to hear all's well. Those plans you posted of the house are around here somewhere but I couldn't find them. Looked like quite a spread. I thought of three things in relation to the PFAL tapes - 1. You did military service in submarines. You should get a set for that alone. 2. If Doug gave them to you at that time, it tells me he trusted you, figured you to be responsible and a good steward of what he considered of high value. That may not mean much to anyone else but it counts for something that, in it's day, counted for a lot. 3. You've done with them what should have always been done with them - shared them responsibly without cost. True. There's no argument on the ownership. Some of the copies floating around might have come from Geer or Europe and technically not be covered by the U.S. Way's rights. Dunno. This seller's story must be a hooter, that's for sure, because if they have them legitimately and can sell them legally - hey. Why not? Maybe someone will start selling little glass bottles of water from The River Jordan, from the "Summer of '70", for 50 bucks a pop. Or "Authentic Ashes" from the Way Woods fire circle. .

Hi Galen - Thanks for that snapshot. How you received the PFAL class material sounds familiar, I know of a couple others who give similar accounts although I don't remember, maybe didn't get, all the details. Although Doug found himself at odds with the Way Inc., having known Doug and his wife at and around that time for many years I would assume with confidence his motives were reasonable and intelligent, if at cross purposes with TWI. (and in '86/'87 I would say from first hand experience they were winging it and sending out not only mixed directives from Ohio in any area of endeavor you went to them with, but also seeing the cumulative effect of much of their own field' "leadership"'s inability to hold to common sense or reasonable courtesy). On the matter of PFAL class materials and media - Geer said throughout 1986 and 1987 several times, and speaks of it in the "POP" screed, that his own solution to the difficulties to working with the Way Internatial was to seek and finally secure full rights to all the Way's "Bookstore", materials, books and media. This was due to the fact the Way was slow and inefficient in processing their bookstore orders. He said the attitude in Europe at the time was "if those Yanks don't give a dam, fine, we don't either". So he took the issue in hand and secured rights to duplicate, print and distribute in Europe. I don't know exactly what that did or didn't include but in the years following I kept hearing about people getting their stuff 'straight from Gartmore" so as not to have to go through the Way International. And although Geer said he had no intention of undermining the Way Nash in Ohio, his actions clearly contributed to that by providing a work around. I never participated in the whole affair, by that time I was moving away from the mess - too much shrapnel, too much "collateral damage" to even the most inocuous and benign endeavors. I don't have even an idle interest in the eBay sale. Who cares? I'll leave it to those who do. I wouldn't be surprised however to find that any number of class sets have floated around for years, gotten from any number of sources. It was no great secret that as people left the Way in the late '80's, early '90's they were carting out all kind of things, copies and originals, of whatever they'd stashed away. It's shown up over the years, sometimes with explanations of rights and ownership, some with no explanation at all. P.S. How'd your house go?

Sweet dmiller. Thanks. Ditto on the that. In a somewhat different vein but coming down the pike on a rainy day...The great Mike Finnegan on "Rainy Day, Dream Away"....hahahahahahhhhaha... ...everyone was laughing at the Early Bird Cafe... :)

Sound Out, Sunesis. You got me thinking. It was a great time in many ways and a gathering of wonderful people we'd known and worked with for many years. In a final pass, one last time here I would retell what drove a stake through my heart and ultimately brought it's own kind of healing in the days that followed. I've a center point for the balance in my life and it's the love I have for my lovely wife, Janet and that she has, for me. Out of that has come our family and a means for me to understand God's unconditional love. Of itself our love is served by what we do for each other and how we recognize it. Honorably, respectfully, humbly. For all it is and all we can be with it. Love has saved me, of that I have no doubt and I'll always marvel at it's finding me and how, in this seemingly graceless age we live in, grace has abounded in ways I would have never dreamed. At that event a hurt was done to her, no small one, by those who would have had the power to correct it but who wouldn't, who simply said "no". Beyond rational reason, for no other reason than they could. And that in so doing they covered for a mistake of their own making, one they chose to hide. Me, I can be hurt and I can deal with that. Her, I'm responsible for. So action was required. All up and down the line I tried to correct it, but nothing changed. She cried, she was hurt and I promised to never return. I did, the summer of 1986, for one final look at the Farm, and our friends. When we left that summer that door shut one final time and that was that. In ways they would never understood that was a place of the heart that would never include them anymore. Forgiven yes, but the clock restarted that day. Like that philosopher Harry Callahan said "a man has to know his own limitations" and that was mine. Some lines, crossed, nothing good can be served by going back over them. I won't go into the details although I have before here. People have gone on, life goes on and we're happy in the ways we always have been, and even more. But this was of such impact that I actually told my children the story years later so that if they ever in their lives found themselves somehow dealing with the same people they'd know to proceed with caution with those who had done "much evil" to us. It was a watershed event so to speak and in it's own way underscored my path for the future. I'm no better than anyone else, all I can do is try. So that's what I've done. I hope, trust everyone here will succeed in all the ways they want now and in ways that surprise you, too. I know amazing things can happen when we least expect it. Thanks for the space, TommyZ.

TommyZ if you're still reading, back to your original post and if "this" is something they got from The Way and VPW...I think it's broader than just that. Some people are overbearing and controlling and will find opportunities to find excuses for how they want to be. Look at your "offshoots". I find it hard to believe that there are that many people in these groups who had any degree of time around VPW, enough times and long enough to fully absorb and practice his example, whatever it might be. They may hear it from others second hand, but something in them says "yeah! that's right on. That's how I'm going to be". It's more than what a person's taught. It involves what a person chooses to embrace and practice. It may be out of fear or out of desire, but the choice, inclination, interest, desire is generated by the person. They're taking the stuff they hear and see and working it out for themselves and making the decision as to how they act. I saw VPW loose his temper many times, get angry. But I didn't choose anger as the method to deal with life's challenges or people that disagree with me. Have I ever acted like that? Sure. But I could see the toxic effect anger had on me personally and others around me, so I chose a different method and path to develop and move in. I can unload a double barrel of serious grief in ways that no one would ever want to be exposed to - and then what? Nothing. There's nothing after that. Fear, grief, bad cha-cha. It sucks. It's interesting to consider the roots and origins of things and how they came about but IMO ultimately you have to deal with people as they are right then and there. If all they want to do is say "well, that's what Dr. Weirwille taught and that's what I believe is right" and dont' want to consider anything else then that's that. They've made their choice and if it's a wrong one they'll have to live with that. But you don't have to, so don't.

Sunesis, thanks. I enjoyed the time we had getting to know each other too! I enjoyed your playing too. Sound Out '84 - yep. Or "Pound Out" as it came to be known. Two weeks, one at the Way Nash and the second in Nashville. I'll have to get back on that one, although on the short side I could say it was The New Way Productions in high relief. Rosalie and Harve and the gang. I have nothing good to say about working with either of them at that event so I'll have to ponder how and if to express my thoughts. I had a Gretsch and a Strat-style custom, an odd one-off guitar that playedokay but had some humbuckers - can't remember the make - but they were a good 50% louder than the standard hb. I didnt' take either one up with us from Florida. We had our two kidlings, though. :) I think they had an LP there I played, although it wasn't a Gold Top like the one I'd had you're thinking of. (wish I still had that puppy!) You reminded me of some stuff I'll have to get back to here. Good to sEe you!! Hope all is well.

way and sky, you're much better at figuring this out than I. I'll leave it to you. TommyZ - let's keep in touch!

Well hmm. TommyZ, I have to tell you I remember the many times you've posted on GS related to your musical endeavors, looking for music, recordings, ideas. All I can say is that given the interest and heart you showed for what you were doing - you were not treated well. I was in a local store today buying some saddle bridges for a guitar I'm working on. I ran into a couple of the guys that play in that local church band I spoke of that plays so well with such a variety of musicians. The bass player said that as he gets older he finds the most important thing to him is to work with "good people", people that have good heads, hearts, and know how to work and get along. The gig doesn't have to be the snappiest but if it's with good people he can enjoy playing with, he's good with it. I'd agree with that. I thought of you and this thread. Your music means a lot to you. You should keep at it. If you do work with those guys again, just take it for what it is. It's a gig. All this crap about ego this and ego that. You're bigger than that. But I gotta tell you - if it's involving that guy on that clip you sent me, the one quacking about being careful about "having fun" and all....? He sounded like a real buzz kill. That was definitely weird.

Yes, he did play guitar. Knew at least 3 chords, C F and G7. He could get on those 3 pretty good too. For a while there he'd do "Ol' Rattler" or "Here Rattler" or some tune like that in the summer school periods. I think he knew "On Top of Ol' Smokey" and some of those older country/folk tunes. If Ted's gone for a spell, I'll say that the "Producer" role was an honorary one, although in many ways, yes, VPW was the "producer" . His guidance and direction set the stage (little music humor there) for Way Productions. And it varied. I know the role and the definition so please I'd rather not get into a Dictionary War. Ted was actually the "producer" in a practical sense. They both worked together on details. But again, for the first few years we were largely on our own in JN. And Ted's getting into the nitty gritty on the East/West Coast stuff. I'm sure he's taking into account that "Music Ministry" meeting in New Knoxville's High School the summer of '71 and a lot of the discussions that were going on at that time. It was far from a concensus coming out of that meeting and there was disagreement on who should lead the thing. That had nothing to do with VPW, at all. Cookin' Mama had talked to him twice that year and he wasn't clear on what he wanted to do yet, but he had Ted in mind to head it up. We got into a row over lyrics and that never really cooled off. From my view it was all good people trying to do good things and make something happen but it was definitely not a settled group of people at that time. This will sound like I'm defending VPW which is fine by me - but to Ted's reference - it bugged VPW that all of the various interested parties had such a hard time getting together and agreeing on anything. He finally gave the reins to Ted and it moved forward from there for Way Productions. Ted was a good person for it, he was a musician, writer, performer. He knew the drill to get something up and running. VPW had a few key points he was locked in on. Volume was one. He didn't get the whole "crank the volume to Bruise" thing most of us were into. But then, after our first concert in New Bremen, he told me I needed to turn up. "Turn up Ru-ez, can't hear you on all that stuff". As for compensation Thomas, JN wrote for the Way people, the Way Ministry. If you gave any money to the Way, you paid for it through your ABS. JN wasn't exactly a money maker. Most of us felt the song ownership wasn't an economic issue, nor one of "ownership". Everyone knew say, "Sons of God" was written by Brian Bliss. No one claimed otherwise. The copyright on the song wasn't an issue as far as ownership and money was concerned. We wern't promoting "these are our songs and we want all rights to them". They were our songs and we had all the rights we needed or wanted.

Hmmm...I dunno Oeno. I remember him talking about the "minor" being a sad, melancholic feel and of course the "major" being an up feel. He didn't want a bunch of drag azs songs in A minor with weepy lyrics, that's for sure. But it wasn't that cut and dried as I recall. Major and minor keys are uh, relative though. (little music humor there). Or can be. Marvin Hamlisch wrote "The Way We Were", for Barbara Streisand, and the movie. (and a lot of of other cool tunes, like Chorus Line, etc. etc. In SongWriter magazing he did an interview around that time and he said he had two goals in that song - one, don't write a stinker for Streisand, he really wanted it to be a hit. Understandable. And he wanted to write a song that would have that poignant melancholic character that was required, but not in a minor key. He said "My Funny Valentine, but in a major key". He succeeded on both counts. Basic Major and minor keys do indeed have a 1 note difference that defines the scale and the basic triad, and that "flatted third" of the minor is one of the building blocks of music, as you know. But a lot of very different music is created using all the various scales and there are lots of factors that go into how and what a song communicates. The major/minor thing is very rudimentary but would be one of the first things you'd want to understand. Given that every major key has a "relative minor" associated with it and the scale tones are identical differentiated only by the root, there's a really fascinating relationship between them, one that's used a lot in modern music but dates way back to "classical" composition and most native musics - celtic, middle eastern stuff, American bluegrass, blues, etc. etc. etc. . Pop is rife with it. It's not satanic though, it's just music.

Sorry - "TZ" = Tommy Z. My abbreviations runneth over. We've exchanged on this topic before and I feel for him.We definitely do agree on the point you made that this isn't unique to The Way, it's a common pain point in many churches, from what I've seen and heard. I do think a lot do fine though. There has to be mutual respect given though, for what people have to contribute, their time and effort and what each person gives and takes from that effort.

Okay TZ, I can see more of how this is a personal issue and question for you. I forget who's in your neck of the woods, of the Corps. Shroyer's? I can't remember. As far as whatever VPW did or taught or said regarding musicians and ego, truth to tell anyone who's relying on that today needs to move on and get some current, real experience and understanding. My own experience working with ministers and pastors has been, some do better than others at handling their work. This goes for musicians too. One of the best run ministrys is Hillsongs. I've written about their music ministry before and I know some of us are familiar with what they do, Darlene Zschech, etc. They're not unusual today by any means. A local church we're involved does some good music but puts the whole thing in the hands of the "band", and the band leader keeps it running. They all get paid. It's a gig, they rehearse, musicians come and go based on availability, and there's a core group that's consistent and two singers who are nearly always in. Some of the participants are well known local professional players, good people but not even full fledged members of this church. The band leader gets who needs, they play well, in tune, show up on time, don't require days to learn one song and have good hearts. Great hearts, couple I'm thinking of. And yeah, they can play their asz off if the song calls for it. The pastor's aren't getting into their stuff all the time because they assume the group knows what they're doing and will do it. And they do. The whole deal revolves around getting the music done and done well. Your situation - I doubt the leaders really know much about what they're doing or how to do it. If they're relying on "what Dr. Weirwille" said in some distant past moment, they definitely need some current instruction and knowledge. I"m not saying that to be mean and I'm not guessing. I know what it means to show up, be handed a book of music and be expected to get to it and do it, and quickly. To do that you can't bring a lot of baggage or BS with you and your sttitude's got to be solid. And you need to know who's in charge, what your role is and what you're expected to do. When working a band up from scratch, the same things apply. But I worked with a small church group a few years ago - these people couldn't get organized to save their lives. They needed help getting their sound system right, and asked me if I'd come in and check it out. I did and made some recommendations, no rocket science, basic sound stuff. They had people hiding behind each other because they were too shy to be up front, and then complaining they couldn't hear themselves sing. Stuff like that. They had a huge board and an amp that wasn't wired right. Speakers in the wrong place. They needed guidance from the ground up, in all categories. So I helped and they didn't want to do what I recommended. What could I say? The pastor thought he knew more. He didn't and all I could do was tell him he was wrong. His wife led the band and used it as an opportunity to bi tch out her daughter about every little thing and lecture her about all kinds of crap that had nothing to do with the musical effort. So it sucked, big time and never got any better. But they thought there were in high "spiritual" country. Finally they lost their bass player and asked me to fill in. I did, had to show them how to play the piano parts and structure harmonies and they tried and it sounded good for a change. Which was fine until the pastor started giving me s hit about something or other. I tried to be respectful but since he wasn't returning the gesture I finally told him to stick it. And that was that. We stopped going. I felt bad - for them. It was their loss and their problems that never got better. Few months later they had a big mess because a bunch of the church building fund disappeared, after the pastor and his family went on a 2 week cruise vacation and the pastor couldn't explain where it went. Huh. Go figure. But he swore there wasn't a problem, as his church fell apart. They still struggle on, believe it or not, with the same "faithful" that they always had. Go figure. When it comes to music and modern Amercian religion it can be as bad as anything the "secular industry" does, and even worse because "God" is invoked everytime someone has a bright idea. It doesn't have to be that way though. But immature and inexperienced "leadership" will screw things up every time because they don't know how to just get the work done and do it with the same simplicity and enjoyment they would doing anything else. They insert their ego's into it and it sucks as a result. I make no apologies for being an expert in my field. If someone doesn't want my advice or contribution, they shouldn't ask for it. Y'know? There should be give and take and a peer-group attitude when working together. Everyone won't agree but when you've got people that know what they're doing - let them do it.

TZ, my .02 - the Way Corps people learned their practical lessons from Dr. Weirwille by observation. Of course there were countless hours of teachings, instruction and talk but I would say that a lot of what stuck the deepest and longest were things that we saw and heard in the course of doing things together or with him. The Way's efforts in music go way back, but most of us probably date the beginnings to '70 - '71, Ted and Mardelle, Selah, Dove, PDSTRO, Cookin' Mama, the first "Rock of Ages" concert at the Winter youth advance in '71 and the first ROA that followed in the summer of '71. In those first years there was a stock of existing musicians, bands, etc. and we were taking PFAL and checking out the Way Ministry. I've missed a few names there, Barry ? who'd worked with Gary Puckett for awhile. Ken Mc and Dean E. of Ohio. Cookin' Mama met Tower of Power on the road, and our sax player witnessed to Skip. Others like Evan will remember some of the earlier people. Donnie Fugit, Tommy Crabb were doing their duo thing of course. There were a lot of exposures to different people - and some very odd couplings like Jerry Hahn of Kansas who was out in San Francisco and whose manager met Jim Doop. VPW had dealings with all of us in the early years and there was a lot of discussions about who was doing what and where and when, etc. Those first 2-3 years after VPW came out to California, a lot of focus was on the music of the times because that's where a lot of the people were and what they were involved in. Ego - VPW had very specific ideas about what worked and what didn't when it came to music. Lyrically, the music, etc. etc. He didn't always get involved in the kinds of music as much as what to do with it. There was some he didn't get but overall in the earlier years the big focus was on lyrics, words, the specific literary expression in the "songs". Early on it was pretty flexible though. When I think back to the first year of Joyful Noise in Ohio with Ted, we were writing and performing our own stuff, others stuff, some cover tunes here and there. It was going it's own course and developing on it's own. Ted always understood the "ego" part of being a performer, musician, etc. You have to have a sense of yourself and what you're trying to do to make it work. Collaboration is always a challenge in any endeavor. 'Way Productions" was very much a collaborative effort for a few years there. You talk about ego clashes - we didn't need VPW to do that. There were a lot of disagreements and endless discussions about everything from how to roll up a guitar cord to how a song should sound. VPW used to get into it with us all the time and we with him but for a few years there it wasn't him sitting over the whole thing calling all the shots. "Ego" - sure. When push came to shove sometimes we'd defer to him or he to us, somebody has to make a decision and get on with it. But in many ways the Way Productions "Joyful Noise" was a gig, a job. I'm not denigrating or taking out the "spiritual" aspect of what was being attempted but from my background, I was very familiar with working for someone, a band, a singer, as an accompaniest. Doing gigs. I'd done 100's of them by then and while I was passionate about the large scale of our goals and contributing to them I also understood the organization of being in a "band". You don't always do or get what you want. This came out in many ways at first - Ted was a very good "band leader". He'd have a song arrangment in mind and rumble around with it on the piano and then say something like "how about some Wes Montgomery octave stuff, try that". Or "do some finger style chords, that big fat chord style". I was a guitarist, I'd give it a shot. That's what I was there to do, as well as contribute my own ideas and music. That's the way we worked. If we disagreed, we'd just try different things until we agreed on something. Or not. Disagreements never stopped a show, or else we'd all have never played. :) But for the most part we just melded all our styles and did what we did. VPW once said "if you can learn to work with musicians you can work with the devil himself". Or maybe it was satan, one of those names. As the years rolled on we all got an earful of what he has to say and yes - there were many times he'd raise Cain over some little bit of nothing and declare it all null and void if it didn't go his way. It could be a pain in the asz to be sure but frankly - and this may just be me - a lof that wasn't that different than many of the things I'd experienced prior, in working with people. I left the California scene for some very specific reasons, one to make a clean break from my previous drug use. I will say this - once I got off away and clean for awhile, I don't know which I'd say was worse - working with a slit eyed addict, a smoked up pot head or a bible thumping know-it-all. They all have their downsides and I've been dere done dat. But it was pretty mellow in Ohio compared to what I'd done and been through. As to the Corps - most of those people that saw this stuff in action just saw the surface, heard the rants and the riffs and picked up on that but never knew what the he lll was really going on. So they picked up on strutting their stuff with the music and inserting their own egos where they didn't belong, like the duck-butt you dealt with. (that recording you sent me still makes me cringe at the sound of that doofus's voice). JN went out with some of them over the years and it was quite an experience. We'd get all kinds - some that wanted to do what they thought VPW did and reset the entire operation to their own ideas. They did the "ego" accusation too, if they didn't get their way. Others worked with us and some just asked where to stand and when to do their thing. Overall it was a lot of fun and some good work was done I think. Some not so good too, but that's the way things go. Important point: this was all done on the people's dime. The ministry's ABS paid for it over the years. In that regard I was mindful of the fact that it didn't fall off a tree magically, people worked, put in their time to do stuff and were supported by the giving of others to a great degree. It was their music and I've always felt and said, it honored the music that those people heard it. I won't ever change feeling that way about it all. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have worked with the people I did and do the things we did. VPW and ego - in any case, if he wanted something and didn't get his way, yes. You had "an ego problem". Sorry for the longness of this. I edited it down to make it moderately large.

Did you get 'er soldered Bramble? If you're still looking, try a Lowes or hardware store for THIS ONE I've got a couple different soldering irons for small wiring stuff and this is my "go to" - it heats up quickly and is very safe. I've had it for a few years and still have the original batteries in it and have done a lot of soldering. And it's cheap! And you're right - a little practice will go a long way. (you may be an expert already - it's not hard, just requires patience). Not sure what you're replacing but if it's anything IPod related, try these guys. They're excellent, cheap and hassle free.

This record is one that I think nearly all explanations for have to stretch juuuuuust a little to get to make any sense. I don't think all the information is there to completely understand it without filling in some blanks, and that's a crap shoot. But I'd agree to the extent that it may not have happened the way we're reading it, and that the reasons and background of what was going on isn't understood from what's written.

"Normal". What a word. The term cult and it's meaning has been long discussed, lo these many years. In Board Years, an eternity or maybe it just seems like that. The Way's been called a cult since it got on the radar of hmmm...."Mainstream Christianity", another much discussed term. I guess I think of it in my own lifetime as late 60's, early70's when it took flame but it could probably be dated before that I'm guessing, One of the bigger Cult Awareness groups has a website where they list everything and everyone they define as a cult, a baseline of "normalcy" if you will, and those who don't make the cut. (can't remember the site otherwise I'd quote their definitions, sorry - but they included the "charismatic leader", the departure from what they defined as basic Christian doctrine and several other points.) The Roman Catholic church was listed, reasons included the Papal stuff, the Pope. The authority given to church tradition over the bible. Other stuff. So for them size doesn't matter when it comes to cult, it isn't just little groups of bible thumpers watching for UFO's with a little green Jesus at the wheel or whatever. Neither does popularity or acceptance. A cult is a cult is a cult and they call 'em like they see 'em. Christianity is a cult, by accepted definition - still yet another term worth popping into a petri dish and seeing what it does. A charismatic leader, departure from the accepted norms of the religious community in which it was originally born and flourished. It caused quite a stir and no small division and still does to this day, depending on where it turns up and how much money is involved. In fact I bet a dissertation could be developed on the relationship of income to cult-status, ie, small dough, little cult problem. Tall dough - BIG cult problem. I dunno - for me it's a difficult term to use intelligently. Not to imply the use of it is unintelligent but I end up with a page of caveats, dunno's and could-be's footnoted with a list of "hmmmm's" that's too long to manage. Practical is the word I'm searching for - it's not a practical word for me. Add to that I'll read things like "cult-like" and my brain just goes into hiccup mode. I see "something that's like something that's like something that departs from the accepted norm, by definition". It's just too much for me to handle, I have to stop and read Dilbert and rest. In short I don't use it unless it's attached to something humorous like a joke. More terms that beg evauation I know but I gotta end this somewhere.