socks

George and Geish, what you've posted makes sense, and adds a much needed section to "the other side of the story".

Dead dogs and pot smokers, definitely not a good analogy. But to each their own. brainfixed, you're coming from a much different place than I do so I can't really relate. Although in my youth (still of adult age, married and "on my own") I often wondered what the youth of tomorrow would shape up like. As a parent I, we, my wife and I together, taught our children the bible, about Jesus Christ and salvation. They had a great opportunity early on to attend a Baptist Christian elementary school (we were still in the Way and active) and there they were loved and taught as about as good as any child could be anywhere we thought both at school (why we put them in it) and at home. We never had them take the PFAL class or sign up for anything and by the time they were of teenage years we were long gone from the Way. We'd heard of other programs old friends of us had going, but they didn't seem right. They've been involved with other Christian churches and programs but nothing that requires anything like a lifetime of committment to a single group. We taught them early on and as consistently as we could, to be honest, truthful, loving and to be thoughtful and careful in their decisions. Their understanding of Jesus Christ is very simple and not convoluted by a lot of external influences. They've made mistakes to be sure but that foundation of simply being honest and trustful of God's providence has held steady. "The good ol' days" are highly overated and have become of mythical proportions when it comes to the Way I think. Likewise the "bad ol' days". That's not speaking of your own experiences or anyone else's specifically but I would say there's no single bucket that holds the entirety of what "everyone" experienced. We can go back and back and reconstruct forever, peeling back the layers of ideas, looking for clues, influences, answers and explanations and it all still ends up a bag of air when it comes to a 25 words or less statement of "good" or "bad". What we have are lives lived and depending on the point from which the perspective is focused (me, you, VPW, the Way Corps, the program this or that, you choose) the details will change. I for one choose the point of what I believe are the consistent factors that run throughout all of those points. Yours may differ and probably will if they don't hold any value for you or the same value that I do. I guess - it's not a debate or discussion that needs to be "won" is my point. It was what it was, and it is what it is. Taking life on face value, truthfully and honestly is the only place to start. From there each of us can build something worthwhile. We may find we're wrong, in the end but it will have been honest and truthful, as best we could be. I never leave out the reality I've learned throughout it all, and that is that there is indeed "a God" and that there was and is indeed a "Jesus Christ". And there's me and a clear perception of the power of love. I'm as sure of those things as I am this keyboard I'm tapping out on. Knowing that I can only encourage each person to see life through their own eyes, minds and bodies because I believe the truths of life will reveal themselves from any honestly viewed point. When they're hidden - there's no good line of sight, that tells me what I need to know. I'm always interested in what others "see" as it has the likelihood of adding to my understanding, in one way or another. I encourage the same for others.

Yep, mad at you ecksard. But not the regular anger, the "spiritual anger". Regular angry, you get mad, ang-ery, blood pressure goes up a tad, mind races, fingers twitch, eyebrows furrow. Little veins show up pulsing on the forehead. I shoulda-saids, they musta-meant's start rehersal in the brain. Then you look at your watch and realize in 5 minutes "Lost" is on! On to bigger and better things. (I only check in once in awhile to see what year John Locke's in and to see if they're still lost. It appears they are.) "Spiritual anger" - whole different deal. "SA's" got legs. To be spiritually angry requires more than a passing irritation and a scratch. It's never about who's right or wrong because it's understood going in - I'm right. That makes the whole deal a lot easier, believe me. "God" has to be involved too of course, deeply in something that He cares deeply about and is majorly bugged about - oddly, it's almost always the same thing I'm bugged about which just goes to show how tight me 'n' the Man are - "like that", all the time. Strategy is required, and actions planned and recorded. Records are the key to spiritual anger resolution. Really really good records. And language skills. Some profanity is usually required too, but not to worry, all manner of cursing is permissible. :blink: Actually, nope.

13 And one of the multitude said to him: Master, speak to my brother that he divide the inheritance with me. 14 But he said to him: Man, who hath appointed me judge, or divider, over you? I have long felt that mankind (and womankind, kinds of all kinds) want to squeeze every possible meaning out of every nuance of everything we think that Jesus might have said or meant or thought in every word that He said, or is said to have said or would have said if He'd had the time because we have to have a Jesus-Answer on everything we have to deal with, or just in case we might need to tell someone else how to deal with something. We need answers and Jesus is the U-AM, the Ultimate Answer Man because if an answer is needed, He'll have it. We think. But somethings we just have to decide for ourselves, ill-equipped as we might be. Like the other better known question about paying taxes. When asked Jesus gave an answer and then He and Peter went off and handled their own affairs regarding paying taxes in private. But god forbid anyone try to do anything in private and be left alone, there's always someone somewhere that wants to inspect your shorts and make sure they're on straight. And charge you for the inspection. B******T. .

Only with a thin margin, paper thin. The story still reads weird. A county employee does not have the authority to make the declarations the article says they made. If that's what happened, I say - sue 'em. Take it to the Fed's. Whack 'em with an ugly stick. Traffic, parking, gathering - none of those things have anything to do with praying or saying "amen". And it's not unusual for people all over the country, everywhere to pile on a few cars too many on a street. Is the issue parking or meeting? Parking can be resolved without dealing with anything at all to do with it being home fellowship. It's the height of hypocrisy to expect a Christian to maintain high degrees of humanitarian concern in their parking habits anyway. Geez - don't tell anyone you're a Christian or they'll use it to hammer you on everything you do right, wrong and whatever they don't like. "How would Jesus park?" Gimme a break.

How you feel about it is up to you, ex. I am taking about my life. Feel free to talk about yours. I can tell you one thing for sure for me - this is about as far from a 'good time' as anything I can think of - and largely unproductive. Sorry, all the talk about 'good times' didn't start with me or mine and it's stupid by my reckoning, at best a bad joke.. For me. Not you or anyone else. Producticate as much as you need to.

Simple. No one here's shrugging and saying that, you keep inferring that in different ways and it's going to inevitably lead at least some of us to counter your insistience - I think what seems difficult for me to swallow in your posts Bolsh, is that you keep using broad, general references that - I have yet to see it being represented here on this thread. The others you have to deal with - family, friends, relationships - I assume you have to maintain otherwise I'd lose the losers and get on with your own life. Family or not. I don't know your deal though, so understand, I can't answer your questions on that count. No one here's blowing you off or your problem's off and saying tough luck, "I had a good time". The entire reference to "good times" has become a really stupid euphimism anyway, IMO. It hardly describes the whole of a productive life, but if it works for you fine. But since when did "good times" become a means of weighting anything worthwhile? It reads like a way to minimize the points others are making here, myself included. Point to note: for me, moi, this dude - I'm not preaching that I had "some" "good times" and that makes anything in your life less than good, acceptable. :unsure:

Yah, that'd be worse than living next to the Hoover, dammit alright! It would definitely suck. I may be the only person here who can get arrested for standing naked in front of my mirror so that's not a goal of mine, personally speaking. I like clothes. Clothes rock. The right threads make the day. Or is it the other way around? I'm not sure. I've got a black crew neck shirt, long sleeve. Kills. I'm not sure if it's me making it look good, or the other way around. I'm really hoping it's not the shirt making me look good because that would well, just crush me. I may have to get used to it though, difficult though it may be. Threads - so complicated.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness, Jeff. It's an unfortunate fact of life that whatever a person believes, be it good or great and in service to the greatest of causes, they can easily go to extremes that will bring harm to others. Don't fool yourself - read what goes on posting at GS. There are people holding grudges years and years and long after the fact, angry, unresolved, who consider harm coming to the Way and it's people to be a good thing, something they deserve, and "them getting what's coming to them". I have no doubt there are people impacted on all sides of the discussion who harbor ill will to those who cross them. I don't mess with that kind of sentiment, or the people who carry it. I left the Way to avoid confrontations that would only end badly. I determined to move on. It may be that my continued participation here runs at cross purposes to that. More and more I've come to feel that GS floats that boat, albeit unintentionally at times. I've always contended that if someone feels they've been wronged and have a legitimate grievance they should pursue whatever legal actions they deem appropriate to rectify the situation. I wish you the best.

Hmmm... The "real me". I'm "The Dad". Also known as "The Hubbie DreamBoat". If I lived in a vacuum with no one to do anything for and no one doing anything for me, there'd just be me, my lint and I. Come to think of it, that's a party right there! I often forget this is as much a discussion board about who, what and why something was in Way world, as it is anything about who, what and why something is now. (and maybe moreso) Living in the past is kind of weird. Authentic? Dunno.

What's that joke? Half the country were there for the whole thing and the other half got there late? But everybody saw Hendrix!

Why would the concept of being good law abiding neighbors and respectful members of the community be so foreign to some 'christian' groups? Good question mstar. I would expect that, at the least, if not moreso. Again, we really don't have all the facts. I've found WND to be an unreliable source of information, similar to what Wordwolf posted. IMO they're basically hacks. I'm a Christian in good standing, dues paid and I've got this year's T-Shirt but I don't like being b-s'd and expected to get on board because someone slaps a cross on it. The information in the article doesn't sound - to me - like it's complete. If it's completely true, as stated with no other significant information to alter the stance the articles takes - it sucks because the county's acting illegally - according to what's stated. It would have no cause, based on what's reported, to demand a permit be needed or applied for. The methods used to determine what's going on there, according to the article, wouldn't stand any test of a legal submission of information or data. So, either San Diego's got a screw loose or sumpin's cranked too tight in the article. For casual meetings, I think permits and variances are overkill. All "good neighbor" expectations apply. Funny non-related example. We lived years ago in a home on a street where there was a family that the Dad liked to do neighborhood shindigs. He was kind of a pain in the as s to be honest, but harmless. One year, he went around and said "he" was planning a "street-event" for July 4th and everone was invited to break out the barb-eez and beers and move to the street. It was a pretty long street, end to end. We had plans to go to an event for the day so we declined. And as it turned out about 3/4s of the neighborhood did too. He wanted everyone to end up in his backyard for "games". Well, lots of people had their own plans. Pretty standard, he got pis sy about it, and really tried to get everyone onboard. Real fun guy. Anyway, about 10 am they blocked off both ends of the street so no traffic could enter or leave, so "everyone" could - I dunno, I guess barbeque in the street or something. I went over and told him we had to leave and he said oh no, you have to stay! It's a block party, it'll be fun! So I had to move the barriers and drive out. Our neighbors told us the next day it was a mess, someone finally called the police to complain about the traffic barriers and enemies were made that day. I didn't like the guy to begin with so no love was lost. But Iheard the police told him he was nuts. You can't do dat without permits, it's a public street. What if there was a fire? Good neighbors - good to come by, hard to find sometimes.

Indeed. The wif' and I were talking about this (she's in media p/r) and right now there's nothing more on this story other than the one story in WND. Probably a "bad neighbor" complaint started it - parking, noise, sumpin'. I'd want to know the background on the whole thing before I got concerned on a wider scale. I have a feeling we won't hear much more about it. The 'major use permit' deal is regarding zoning. I seriously doubt that the county would make the demands noted in the story - they can't arbitrarily demand a permit be obtained without due process being carried out which would include public hearings regarding the issue at hand. "Expensive" studies aren't demanded for something like this situation unless they're determined necessary during the proces. In short a county "employee" has no responsibility to show up on someone's door step and make an ad hoc determination of any kind. I would think there's history in the story that isn't being covered in the WND piece. If it's true the couple should take the county to court and blast the county out of the water. What the story reports is a rediculous abuse of law and process but I have my doubts it's the full story. "Home fellowships" should be allowed, without question. Okay, maybe a couple and as long as no one's getting hurt, it's hardly a dangerous proposition, on face value. Bunch of cars show up every Tuesday night and there's a bunch of racket, neighbors have a right to inquire. It should be a fairly easy situation to resolve. This is America. I don't care why people two thousand years ago met or where as much as I care about what I do and how I do it and if I want to host a get togther of friends and interested people in my home to fellowship around our faith and the bible, I will. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to face off with me and we can talk about it. Nothing more American than getting into a fight over one's faith. Pass the apple pie. If you're receiving money, "offerings" - that could certainly be construed as a business and god forbid if money changes hands and the government doesn't get a cut. That's going to lead to trouble. They'll be on you like sticky on a stamp until they get their fees or taxes. But it's a trite issue in my mind if it's nothng more than a few people getting together for a few hours for the kinds of things we know as "church in the home".

An amazing tune of Bob Dylan's, no question. Poignant to say the least. I think Allen's version does so well because as the judges noted throughout the season, he seems to be able to authentically "connect" through a performance and make the song his own. When he sings this one, you believe him. You can't buy that or practice it into performance. You have to grow into it and he seems to have an old soul in that young body when he sings what he would do for the one he loves. Everyone who's felt that or wanted that knows the feeling, that the impossible is possible and will be done with their love. He did a good job. When the rain is blowing in your face And the whole world is on your case I could offer you a warm embrace To make you feel my love When the evening shadows and the stars appear And there is no one there to dry your tears I could hold you for a million years To make you feel my love I know you haven't made your mind up yet But I would never do you wrong I've known it from the moment that we met No doubt in my mind where you belong I'd go hungry, I'd go black and blue I'd go crawling down the avenue There ain't nothing that I wouldn't do To make you feel my love The storms are raging on the rollin' sea Down on the highway of regret The winds of change are blowing wild and free But you ain't seen nothing like me yet I could make you happy, make your dreams come true I know there's nothing that I wouldn't do Go to the ends of the earth for you To make you feel my love To make you feel my love

I was going to stay out of this discussion but I feel like the issue of anonymity on GS and how that relates to people's personal reasons for being here seems like an issue. A comment and a couple pieces of advice: Of the 1,000's of people that have been or are involved in the Way over the years, a few hundred have registered and post here, some a lot, some a little, some not at all. Geographshically, chronologically, it covers a lot of people, times and places. Plus, as you note others like yourself have no direct experience with the Way Int'l. itself, but the groups and ministries that have generated from their members. And couple points to remember is that in nearly all cases of the better known and populated groups, those who are no longer involved at all with the Way but have started their own activities have a reason why they're not still involved with the Way directly - they may express those reasons benevolently but the reasons will be based on some form or level of dissatisfaction or disagreement. I can't name them all from memory but I'd bet a fairly stale doughnut on that statement. Likewise - the Way itself hasn't historically favored or supported anyone leaving their direct membership relationship with the Way, moving on and out in their own operations. They have no formally recognized affiliates or partners. You're either with 'em or agin 'em, by their definitions. So in ex-Way world you're either in or out. In that way, everyone who isn't "in" has a common connection, although it may not be one that's meaningful to everyone "out" in any way. Your desire to be a thorn in these people's sides, for whatever reasons, is evident. You want to make a difference in a way you believe will be meaningful. I'm not suggesting that you not do what you do. That's up to you and by all appearances you have substantial reason to go your current route. Expressing your dissatisfaction, the reasons and proposing solutions is healthy. My advice on the identity question, anonymity, etc. is to remember - personal contact with those who participate on this board is a personal decision. Exchanges about the board and the participants done offline, email, phone, in person, etc. are personal decisions. Who says what off the board is up to them, you, whoever. Whomever. Whatever. Samw as what people put on the board. The rules of the GS board don't require a person to identify who they "really" are on the board, in fact anonymity is A "PROTECTED" part of participation. If you have a problem with what someone's doing offline I suggest you take it up with them and if you don't like it tell them to stop. If you have a problem you can't correct with what someone's doing offline that reflects on what's going on - on the board, I suggest you take it up with the owner of the board and it's moderators to determine a course of action to resolve it. Otherwise I suggest you deal with it personally. There's no "outting the outter" on the board allowed here. You don' t break one rule to make a point about another. I for one could give a rats asz what you or anyone else divulge, reveal, share, confess, tell, report or otherwise communicate with each other offline. I don't want to know who said what and what they did wrong. That's your personal business. The only exception to that IMO would be if there's reason to believe there's some kind of threat or risk imminent based on what you're getting. In that case, I'd suggest taking whatever immediate action is reasonable to prevent it be it a post or notification to the board's owner. I don't mean this harshly, but in expressing my opinion I just want to be clear.

Was it? There are "icky" aspects to many of the tenets of various religious faiths. I'm sure we all agree on that. I don't consider something like say "love your neighbor as you would be loved", (including the basic idea of active benevolence towards those I don't know or have complete reason to trust), is superstitious. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, it places the action taken and the reason for the action within complete control of the individual and no one else. This was a basic definition of "love your neighbor" as taught by Jesus and is different than other views of the same idea, such as "don't do what you wouldn't want done to you". Inaction doesn't define anything clearly, certainly not intent. An action will. Where does Fantasy come in? Believing in a God you can't see, don't know is there and is only a veiled rumor? In healing that never happens, prayers that never have context or are part of a relationship? I wouldn't believe that either. If there's nothing "there" for a person they can try but I would suggest they be as honest as they can be if there's nothing there for them. Call the Way whatever you want, there's no offense to me and none taken. It was certainly a badly managed and chaotic enterprise at times. Most religious enterprises - churches, are businesses, started and run by those who want and need to succeed in that arena, be it for "God" or what ever they're calling God that week. It's certainly a fantasy to expect human effort to maintain purity 100% or to assume that someone who insists you give them money for their service isn't in business for themselves. Nor when they do what they want with what we give them. Eventually they'll all fail cuz one thing's for sure - we ain't taking nothin' with us in the end.

I wouldn't agree that everything you listed qualifies as a "fantasy". It's a little weird to insinuate that because someone was in the "Way" and had a "bad" experience - that all/most of the related material and effort was a fantasy and that to continue endeavoring in any of them is an exercise in "magical thinking". I can take anything you'd remotely consider "Christian" and make it very manipulative and harmful to you. That doesn't mean that the core material is manipulaive or harmful, only that I am. I don't think the Way was a cult, I don't think Christianity as held forth was false or magical, when you mention terms like heaven, prayer, healing and believing or what I'd call "faith". Life is full of intangibles and assumptions. How do you deal with those?

Cyndi Lauper - playing dulcimer! Cool tune.

Quite the two hour blow out! Kris - da winnah! Finally, a Finale that lives up to the name. It had it all, the tears, the laughter, the corn ball humor and some pretty darned good performances. Brian May, once again showing how distinctive his sound is. He could drop off the back of a truck and hit the riffs in "We Are the Champion" and draw a crowd. Rod Stewart! Still kickin' it. Really a statement of growth - when I saw him years ago with Jeff Beck's group at the "old" Fillmore he was in the hide-behind-the-amp stage of his career, hesitant to take center stage. Now - well, he's the Rodster. Likewise with Lionel Richie - he's not really my favorite performer, but it seems he's in full force, doing it as well as ever. Nice stuff. Kiss? Well, Kiss is Kiss. Oddly, one of the weaker presentations of the night for me. Kiss fills a stage, they don't leave much room for anyone else, being what they are. Having someone perform with them as they had Adam do seemed to hmmm...it suddenly makes the obvious painfully so - it's 4 guys (old guys now) in makeup roaming around. They're always one step into parody and effecting it with a sing along, didn't work for me. AT and T released that 38 million of the 100 million or so votes came from Arkansas, Kris's home state. The dynamics of it being a voting show spoke, I guess. I think Kris clearly had it goin' on. Listening to his studio recordings they released during the season he sounded great. The kid's got a voice, in more ways than one. Now, as long as they don't do first-releases that are the usual droopy drag-asz things they put out with the winners, it will be good. I can't see Kris or Adam doing "Do I Make You Proud" or some such glafuphal. They need to let them do some decent tunes. That one of co-written by one of the judges, hmmm...okay in my book, so if that's the first Kris release hope they get it out of the way and move on to some interesting stuff. * AT&T is denying that 38 million votes came in from Arkansas. They are not sure where that number originated from. *

The Mrs. and me were into Gokey. Love the sound of his voice, and his delivery. I downloaded couple of his tunes, and find him to be someone I enjoy hearing over again. I had hoped he'd be in tonight. Kris too. Both have styles that wear well. Kris has a great quality and attitude as a performer. Adam I don't like as much, as the quality of his voice isn't distinctive, the sound of it. He's got range, pipes and is clearly a great singer and performer and will do well. I think they hit the nail on the donkey when they identified his sound as heavy rock pop. I think it gives him some texture doing that style. But he could do most stuff equally well. He has that L.A. Hollywood Goth look that's pretty over done IMO, looks like every kid on the main drag of Hollywood, Friday night. But he can sing. Gokey - his version of "You Are So Beautiful" was, is a classic. Off the chart, hanky time stuff. Loved it. I have a sneaking suspicion Kris might take it. Dunno. I'm also glad that Adam made it to the final round. They really needed some singers who can, well sing and they haven't had the range and quality of this year in any season methinks. The judges - I've had enough of the new gal, and yes. They're class - A dorks.

I really don't believe in "dualism", other than we can and do impose as many approaches, views, perspectives as suit our needs at the time. "Balance" is a temporary condition achieved by constant motion, would be one way of viewing dualism.

Pleased, I'm sure. :) "it is difficult to change things effectively at the genetic level," There ya go. It is difficult, particularly if that process is going to mean a change in who we "are", as opposed to how we look, or act. Chickens, it's definitely not a good time to be a chicken, that's for sure. ("Hey, do these feathers make me look fat, be honest...")

Hmmm, it's been over 15 years since I read "Origin of the Species" Bolshevik and did any study in it - and genetics is a whole ballgame underway - but Darwin's original propositions didn't attempt to tackle what he called "the origin of the primary mental powers" or "of life itself". Evolution's come a long way since Darwin's day (little evolution humor there) but I think the same thing would apply, directly and indirectly. Consciousness, the "you" that identifies itself as unique and not something else and defines itself locally to your body, has yet to be measured and weighed. Science does it's part and a big part but I think (*think*) that the strength of science is that it understands it's boundaries and means of endeavor. How something like human conciousness reveals itself through scientific means may or may not define it, in part or in ful or even correctly. Religion ("religion") and theology, likewise. These two aren't exclusive but cooperation has proven to be difficult when they aren't allowed to inform each other or speak for themselves. Not that that's what you're doing, just sayin' here. Genetics won't account for everything. In fact, a unique aspect to human "self" life is the ability to choose for or agains't one's own predications and to even choose right over wrong, as perceived. Bad over good. Predisposition is limited to the material there is to work with, withn a species. Genetic manipulation is finding it very difficult so far (*so far*) to overcome that in a meaningful way. Not to mention that I think we're seeing that releasing genetic changes with minor ("minor") risk has yet to fully recognize the fact that a tiny risk is still a risk, in the wide world of "life". Put another way, if evolution was in the tool bin of "God" He allowed for it to be mixed with time - lots and lots of time. Squeezing several millions of years into an 18 month federal grant may prove to be... less productive, in the long run.

Oh. Yeah, the hits never stop coming once you login and post some words. Check this out Wayne Dyer wants to show you how to Discover YOUR Power to Manifest! It is moderately tragic how googleads "reads" GS and what it chooses to show in the ads banner. The authentic you? The bit about womenses supporting socks though - google was walking. Or predicticating. Or sumpin'.

The collective mind of GS, read by googlads, LZ.