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I would add this - for all the guffawing around the 'Vanced Class and others as being little more than organized b-s, the fact is that at that time a number of events occurred that were ground-establishing for me. One involved ministering, praying for a friend who was sick at that time. I understood "Healing" was possible, he didn't say anything about what was wrong, so I prayed for him. I closed my eyes, put the ol' hands on his shoulders and immediately was filled with the image of his lungs. I've seen pictures of lungs before-if asked i'd have probably drawn lungs as looking like little upside down kidney beans with tubes coming out of them or something. Lungs. These - his - looked like a medical photograph of lungs, I saw the image of his entire insides. Needless to say it was rather uh, disturbing in a way. Lungs don't look all that cool, and all of the rest of the stuff inside us looks kind of weird too, as I recall. The entire image was dark and etched. I prayed for him and - actually he went into the hospital a day later with some serious infections. I'm glad he did, he got cared for and recovered fully. But he was a sick dog that night. I certainly didn't "heal" him but I prayed for him and frankly wished he'd been healed that night but the progression of that illness was on it's own track - I do believe that the continued prayer and support contributed to his speedy recovery as they say. I do know I knew exactly what that guy's lungs looked like after that for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure I did the right thing but it did teach me to take time to ponder what something means, even after I think I know. Another involved driving a group of us to the AC. We stopped at a gas station for a bio -break in Berkley, heading for the bridge on to Mill Valley (CA). I stayed in the car, pulled up in a side spot at a gas station. I'm sitting there waiting and get the urge to get out and look under the car. Why? No idea really - just look under the car. I did and got underneath thinking what they f-k am I doing this for and spot a small leak under the gas tank - no idea what had caused it but there it is - a little dent/hole and gas dripping out. I know - gas smells. But it's 1971 and we're we're parked in a - gas station. It stinks gas. I didn't smell anything that made me want to look under the car. I get up and go in and ask the guy in the shop to take a look - yup, that's a leak alright. He goes in and comes out with a bar of soap - tells me to rub it up into the hole to plug it - I did and the leak stopped. Everyone is back out by now. We talk and decide to go on to the AC and we'll deal with it the next day. He gave me the bar of soap. I checked it out couplet times later - plug held for the entire trip, next day got it in to get fixed. There's another half a dozen things like that that occurred around that time of the AC - many before it and many more after it. In the long view it was a period of time that included the AC but didn't revolve around it. It was a long time ago but the movement was mostly like a fast ignition, slow burning long smoker. Still going, to be honest. I don't "speak the Word" about these things to people like a recording. From time to time they have meaning in certain situations and I retell to them the things that I've lived that would have bearing on their own circumstance, things that to me bear witness to God and the reality of His existence and intentions for man. We're not anymore special than another, any one of us - we're all very special to God. In fact I bear witness to the fact that if me - then anyone. I have no doubt that the continuous wonderfulness of life can be both more than overwhelming sometimes and serendipitous in it's ordinariness at others. It is what it is but if you loaded a chamber next to my ear and cocked it and said "Deny it" all I could really say is "see you in the next life - and you better bring a bigger gun". Cuz you're going to need it. All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t.

I don't understand why anyone (like the examples you gave johniam) would follow the same series format as PFAL or would have something like an "advanced class". Advanced - compared to what? At what? I'm not being facetious. Jesus is often given as the example, teaching in parables and using metaphors with some but speaking more directly to those who had followed Him longer. Yet, His followers - not a one - actually understood His death or expected his resurrection. A lot of effort is given to trying to prove that Jesus taught His closest followers some higher levels of "truth" - and yes, it's obvious He worked directly with those closest to Him and had a cadre of literal followers and 'believers' that He spoke freely with. Yet - and this is significant - not a single human being that we know of thought He was anything but very dead after His crucifixion and they all mourned His death, feeling the terrible loss. So whatever we think they knew it didn't "connect" until after His resurrection, which was completely outside of the realm of human effort or expectation. God and Jesus Christ - you got that and nothing else. They'd supposedly seen and heard it all, firsthand. Then - nothing. The story goes that they came to life on the day of Pentecost - it appears that there was a very real event that caused The Light to turn on in their brains and souls. But the rest of the time they were milling around, getting organized, finding a replacement for Judas and working on - whatever. Given more time they might have started running classes for god's sake. Again - the Holy Spirit unfolds reality to them and they see with new eyes "finally" one might say - that they were it. This was it. And that's all they were going to get - not that it wasn't grand or enough but some things appear to have connected on that day for them. Again - a lot's made of them "being ready" and all of one accord and all of that - but doesn't it seem clear that yet again the "power" of the event had next to nothing to do with them or their paltry preparations? Of their own "accord" nothing was happening? They were doing good to remember to be present and accounted for. Serious yes, no doubt. But very much human beings. Then - there's a "movement", the effort to spread the message of Jesus Christ comes alive. "AC" has nothing do with it. People like you and lots of others sat through all of these classes twiddling their ears and hearing lots of bible. I was good at that too. But no, I don't think that specific kind of effort has anything to do with "outreach" that won't happen when a person is truly, deeply and individually changed and "connected" with God through Jesus Christ. As with all of the other records we read the moments of truth circle around an infinitely endless moment of reality that has all the subtlety of a train ripping down your door with nowhere to go but in. That's all I know and can speak for. Quiet seas, raging waves, whichever - the water's of life have to engulf you one way or the other, where ever you're sitting or it's just another recitation of "the truth".

I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes. In VPs AC he read lots of OT records of prophets doing the healings, but no outpouring in the here and now. I can't write the teacher anymore, but I can write this. I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam. The AC had little to do with specific outreach in the Way IMO. In the earliest days of the "ministry" in California, pre-PFAL and post PFAL, people spread the Word about Jesus Christ as a personal savior and what that meant "one-to-one". It simply happened because people wanted to talk about it. If it's miracles you want to see, and it's the PFAL series you look at then the verse that speaks the loudest (if not the clearest) is Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they" etc. A lot of the Way's methodology developed from the interpretation of that verse to mean - those who believe to do those things, or some things, or something, in His name, will then do those things and others too. IE - signs will follow those who believe to perform those signs. The object of the belief - to perform signs in the name of Jesus Christ. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... Okay, we see Jesus clearly speaking about these kinds of things in the gospels, but the verse in Mark is better understood when read - follow them that believe in my Name.........................................those who do believe in my name will do these kinds of things. It's not the things that are important or the focus. It's believing in Jesus Christ. His name is important and represents a reality and construct in the Kingdom of God that can be understood "in His name". The stuff follows the lives of those who believe - notice all of the "miracles" that we read of Jesus - feeding hungry people. The feeding was to - well, feed them. It wasn't to perform a miracle. Healing a lame person, something wrong with their legs - you got a guy who can't walk. Walking with good legs would be nice. The miracle did something for the man that needed to be done. Of course - the miracles stand alone and speak for themselves and would represent - what? Power? The entire idea of "walking with power" - ie the AC - makes for a conundrum IMO if it focuses on doing things, performing miracles. Nobody's going to snap their fingers and get a 1,000 loaves of Wonder Bread and a 100 boxes of fish sticks out of the blue. For that matter it won't happen simply because there's a hungry crowd. It simply doesn't happen that way, and history has shown that to be absolutely true - those who insist on it end up like Benny Hinn and some of these other clowns. They're just off on another planet. They need a serious as s kicking although I doubt that would put a stop to their arena sized jerk-offs. They protect themselves from direct honest confrontation because when they are confronted directly the "power" goes up in smoke. My direct experience with people "like that" has been 100 per cent consistent in that outcome - nothing, nada, nuttin' happens no matter how much they wave their wands around. Nuttin'. It's b-s--t plain and simple and makes the message of believing in Jesus Christ look ridiculous. Frankly I'm surprised JC doesn't show up and smoke them just to preserve whatever dignity they might have once had but it appears we can have as much rope as we want to hang ourselves this go round. Jesus is The Show. When the message and the focus veers from that it's over. It's much less of a "spiritual" thing than we think IMO. The events that support the message and the need occur - follow - the lives of those involved as they live them. The best part of the AC was just reading the Bible a lot and getting a larger understanding of what God has done, can do and might very well do under certain circumstances. All I really learned from it was to "just do it". Speak the message and try to help others. Where there's great need there can be great deliverance in a diversity of ways. If you're looking for support all I can say is yes - yes. S--t will happen. Why it does or doesn't at any specific time isn't my concern, at all.

Two very bad bad men being very good.... <br><br> Superstition ain't the way. <br><br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CeUKOFVO15w?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Of course it's an insult. A put down. If it means what I read it stinks. I'll leave the balanced empathy to others. I don't suffer insults easily or for long. If someone doesn't like me, what I say or what I write all they have to do is move along. If they really want to get in my face about it that's going to be a situation of their making because they can easily avoid what's going to come next. While it's true everyone does get hurt and suffer in this life the fact that we do sucks. It's inescapable but it isn't good. And I'll die my last breath cursing the f-king evil of this world that makes life insufferable for so many and declaring the only answer I've known to it - following Jesus Christ, a much better man than I'm sure I'll ever be. As far as the evil goes - acceptance is insane. There are people who don't like the fact that you repeatedly reference your experience with VPW, that you feel now like it was wrong and that you realize now what you may have then or may not have - that it was wrong on both sides. You shouldn't have done what you did and you wouldn't have had the opportunity had it not been offered to you. Under his guidance and direction you did what you did. VPW was a fully experienced adult, a teacher of the bible and a man who held the role of a pastor by virtue of the fact that he built an organization that brought people in under his direction. In that role he held the highest responsibility, greater than those who he was responsible for. Any idiot would know that and would know that what he did was wrong. Saying it was wrong isn't wrong. Describing the betrayal and the results isn't wrong. Some of us more than others suffer emotionally and struggle with the hurts of this life, be they small or large. We feel broken, torn, looking for that bright light to show the way out of the dark hole of life. Given that light doesn't mean we will never do the wrong thing, we'll stumble and fall and hurt again and again. What's important is to live another day to tell the story, learn from it and move forward. You're doing that otherwise you would have blown your brains out years ago - some do that. Whatever gives us the grip on getting through another day of living in this s---hole of a world is good for starters. There's more to it than that but if you don't get up and out for another day of fighting it - how's that go? - you live for the fight when that's all that you've got. But there's more than that. You've got more than that and you know it. And you know what else - f-k anybody that can't bear to hear it. They don't have to. It's not their hurt or their burden. I'm sure you already know there's no answer to "why?" Why - because. Because it happened, because life really does suck badly when it isn't cool and it's not cool a good percentage of the time. I'm fortunate but I do screen myself from anyone who would push my buttons or give me the urge to beat the crap out of them because they're such idiots. It's much easier to maintain my good will towards others remembering that just because they're as-sholes doesn't mean I have to be. But y'know and having said that - writing screeds in an email is one thing - anyone say that to your face stick your foot up their as-s.Then tell them to get over it.

What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people? Nothing on face value, johnster. People are basically the same but an audience changes. The performance analogy - a performer may have the same songs/jokes whatever but will change the act per the audience. Heavily scripted and executed performances are "shows" - show the stuff, the audience comes because they know what to expect and like that. That's also true of religious endeavors - while ritual is useful, it's not the only tool in the box. Based on what I saw 40+ years ago and shortly after, doing a redo isn't effective, particularly when it comes to "the things of God". Let God do the redo, you/we provide the faith and focus. I know - everyone does it that's what everyone does-don't we have to retain and execute basic principles and methods, etc. etc. yada yaya? That's what most everyone does. Look around where we're at and the rate of success- You asked the question honestly as I would - what changed? Something ain't workin' if that's the question. Just sayin' - doing the same thing but expecting different results is....?

You guys were all such good li'l Wayfers. I kept all of the songbooks, every version. The oldest small yellow one I have dates back to '68. They're around somewhere. Hey - they're mine, why let someone else tell me what to throw away. Nothing more sacred than one's own trash. Side rant: some books are better off used as kindling but I never destroy books and have a terrible time getting rid of them. I did very little of the throw away rituals and practices, ever. Every few years I glean through what I've got and relinquish a few to libraries or have sold a few online. I love the oldest ones that have a note or receipt or ancient business card in them or something or other. It's been fun to find stuff like that. :)

Always loved "I Saw The Light" - great Hank tune, waysider! First time early the wif' and I heard and sang "Camping in Canaan's Land" we about fell over laughing. Enjoyed singing it, but the image and the sound of the words, "camping in Canaan's land" just seemed funny. Giggle fests for awhile there. Singing together with other folks and all those older hymns was fun, still is at times. They're stately, thoughtful, poignant at times, loud declarations at others. Half the lyrics on the 'Net are wrong and the other half are linked to those. Not all I guess but so much of the lyrics are close but no cigar. The Way changed lyrics to match the doctrine and theology. Over the years others were written but take it from me, it's hard to write and arrange something like an "Amazing Grace". Simple as it is, it's killah. The use of the basic lyrics has been rewritten 1000's of times into other similar songs as the thought and sentiment is so universal but the original still stands as is as a great song. Others have been done though as the years progress, IMO anyway. There's some great tunes coming out over the last 20-30 years. Time will sift the ones that people hold on to and love. The lyric changing never stuck in my craw, still doesn't but it probably should have. That's just me but then I'm not reprinting song books with the news ones.

Savor it! Happy Birthday! :)

"I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?" If you mean why it became flat as a board and equally boring, that reflects several things IMO - "outreach" is the product of reaching out and having something you want to reach out with. I'm not talking about a "product" you sell or promote either but the natural expression of what someone is going through at that time. Early on as well as later too what really had tangible value was an authentic change in people's lives that showed, spilled over and out to others. You don't have to tell people to laugh when something's funny or to cry when something's sad - the response and reaction to those kinds of things are validations of realities that are experienced and real. Hear a room full of people laughing uproariously and you want to peek in and see what's so funny and they want to pass the humor on. It's real, spontaneous, authentic. Read the gospels and it's obvious - when something really happens the lid pops off everyone's top. No one has any problem talking about it. Over the years many ex-Wayfers have tried to blame someone or something for why 'it" dribbled off - to which I'd have to answer turn the mirror around instead of pointing it at someone else and you have your answer staring at you. They talk about it like it's always someones lack of believing or following some leader or getting too this or not enough that. That's stupid IMO. And by all appearances the Way Nash wouldn't know a miracle unless it showed up in their horn of plenty Sunday night. They're a great model for revival - just look at what they do and don't do that, do anything else. It's like riding a bike - As soon as you stop and start counting how many times the wheel turns to go forward you start to wobble. Just ride the dammed bike, y'know? Every kid learns that early on in life but we forget.. And kids were the population of the Way - teens. 20 somethings were the adults for years there. All that energy, diversity, given a little fuel - bam! Worst thing you can do is try to put a lid on it, regiment it, orchestrate and manufacture it. File that under "buzz kill" in the dictionary. For me, it's never stopped, I'll say that. Anyone who wonders where the good times went is on a different train. Can't be more blunt than that. If the Advanced Class material helps, fine but I'd suggest don't get stuck on trying to come up with the right "formula" for success or tagged with losers that want to redo something that's already been done. It's either real and now or it isn't. Everything else can be bought and sold but the things of God in action won't be bagged.

You're we'come! johnster, "bodily" absentia, yes. I put that other stuff up to also show that underscoring all of that is the idea presented in the second statement: The Holy Spirit takes the place of Christ in the Word in us. ---------------- Actually the "Christ in the Word, in us" (my comma) is simply the knowledge of Christ - that we read in the Bible - that we absorb and learn through reading the "written Word". if the "Holy Spirit" takes that place, that simply means that "Christ in us" is now a spiritual reality, not only or limited to a knowledge of him in our brains that we know about. there's a process in PFAL - the "renewed mind" that factors into that. But basically you have right in PFAL itself that direction of the "spirit" teaching now and being that primary focal point of learning, the new relationship with God through Christ, all that will come throughout a life of fellowship with God. Whether that be right or wrong isn't my point - but it does help to understand that consternation with all of the constant movement towards managing every aspect of one's "walk" - that can eliminate the dynamic that should be coming from the "spirit" teaching and leading within a person's life. The ol' pneuma the hagion - the stuff of which that faith of Christ, the "personality" of Christ, that "eyes behind our eyes, ears behind our ears".. "New birth" in Christ is in that respect different than the O.T. "faith unto righteousness" (my quotes), in that while the essence of the will of God in a life is universally the same there's a "fullness" or realization to it now that's identified with Christ. "The Way". Anyhoo - that stream runs throughout PFAL, it's buried at times (IMO) in all of the jumping around, the funny stories etc. and illustrations. I'm just offering a view of how that material lays out.

"Battle of the Senses" Twinkster, senses versus faith. The basis for the statement and the logic is around these statements - that man needs a point of reference outside himself for learning - and that - truth needs a center of reference which is not the man seeking - and - the revelation of the Bible is necessary to the senses man to be complete. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ. The Holy Spirit takes the place of Christ in the Word in us. ...the second statement is out right strange both in it's use of upper case H and S (in light of what PFAL teaches to that topic) and "takes the place of Christ in the Word in us"...........dunno, it simply doesn't make sense. I never tried to understand them specifically because in the context of the material in that section it's not as pie-in-the-sky as that sounds. It's simply saying that a physical man needs a physical point of reference to go to, that speaks to him, that he can initially understand and relate to. Christ was a man, the Bible is a book - stuff, human stuff we see, read, hear, etc. I guess it could be phrased - how does a human find out the kind of detail that they'd read in the Bible - without the Bible to state it? To me it's not an unreasonable premise, it's really just restating the basis for the continuation of Christianity over the last several hundred years moving forward from the initial verbal witness of the first couple generations of followers that was passed on and written as time went on. But - if that was the entire premise of PFAL it would be wrong, point blank. The bible is not all there is to this life in Christ - it's a part, an important essential part but if there was no Bible tomorrow God's hands wouldn't be tied. But there's other stuff in PFAL that speaks to the spiritual realities that exist and occur too. I've said before it's convoluted - it is, partly because I think looking back that VPW went way out into areas he hadn't mastered himself. I give him more credit than is popular here - I feel he had a sense of what needed to be understood but took too much in too fast and ran it back out too fast in PFAL and his effort to have The Way ministry - once it was lodged in stone it didn't have the opportunity to improve and change in the fundamentals, he was simply to dogmatic in his desire to hold to certain things as "foundational principles" that had to be maintained or "the whole Bible would fall to pieces". That's not true at all. That would give my old homies conniptions to read that I'm sure but I really don't mean it as an insult. Over 40 years on now many of us have had more time at it than he did, up to that point and had his stuff to start with and go forward from. So I don't think it's out of line at all, it's just honest. I'd expect understanding to increase, and if that changes what "VPW said", so be it.

T-Bone, I understand what you're saying. And it's one of the most confounding things that in the midst of all of that read the bible, read the bible read the danged bible clatter that the very people saying it and reading it could become afraid that the "living" Christ will somehow possess them and be of the wrong "god", even a "Jesus" spirit speaking of the Advanced Class. Better that He be somehow distant? than what the N.T. so passionately holds forth - that He is alive and well and indwelling in each of us with a presence that is - should be - knowable and identifiable. This is one of the most driving under and over lying concepts of the N. T. IMO. The shepherd and His sheep, Israel and others that would be called. An inheritance not of the land of the O.T. promises and from those not born out of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a lineage of righteous faith now established in Christ in a temple not made with hands. His sheep will listen, hear His voice and know Him. I guess non-sheep won't. I'm not in charge of Report Cards. But if Christ isn't "Here" it's not His fault, y'know?

"If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE?" That's really the crux of Christianity. The N. T makes the rather obvious but astute observation in II Cor. that we don't know Jesus Christ "after the flesh" any longer. Many of the earliest followers had or knew someone who had. Christ's ascension in Acts - there's a fundamental relocation of the resurrected Jesus. Jesus is quoted as saying that He would leave His followers but come back. He spoke of always being with them, amongst them, in their midst as they continued to follow Him. He spoke of a "comforter".After the resurrection He showed up looking much like He had, recognizable, and "appeared" in another "form" at other times. What all of that means I can't say definitively but the progression of events of His life, death, resurrection, time after that and the ascension follows a path of being here on earth, dying, returning to life and finally "leaving". He had said that would happen and it did however the leaving wasn't meant to be a gone for good, remember what I"ve said because I won't be here to remind you end of story deal. There is an element of that to the records that speak of this but again - there's the "comforter" that He would send. So yes, I would say He's "gone" in that He clearly "left". Where is He" The Bible's both figurative and literal on that - "heavenlies", "seated at the right hand of God", "resurrected". I think - I'll say cautiously because i don't intend it to anyone here specifically - that when someone has the sense that He's absent and gone and not around, they probably don't know Him today - that would seem rather obvious. A person may read about Him, like Him, quote what He said and try to do as He did but not know Him in a real sense. "Absent". No, not really. The bible would provide a means to learn and know about Jesus Christ, God, the whole deal. The Bible can't logically be a replacement though - - first there's no need - Christ isn't literally "absent" - a truly bad word for His current state and status amongst His followers. Leaving and being gone-for-good no more - that's absent. "Everyone who's here, say HERE!". The absent Christ wouldn't respond. Yet Christ lives today and is in and amongst the Church. He's not absent. - nothing at all like that. "Christ in you", Christ amongst His followers, filled and comforted, known by their love and faith, a living testament to the living God and His son Jesus Christ. - The bible as "The Word of God" speaks to a lot more than Jesus Christ. I know - everyone since Day Two has riffed on JC being the pivotal point of the ages and the entire point of everything from sliced bread to toasters but - seriously, "God" is the center piece of His Word - Jesus Christ's relationship to God is the pivotal point. Which brings up a whole lot of really interesting things about "who" Jesus Christ is then, now and future. Anyhoo - I do think the entire "absent Christ" in PFAL has been misplayed by many people over the years. I never understood that to mean: absent and gone, now read the bible. PFAL clearly sets out that the Bible declares Christ, who declares God - to us. There's a progression and a path - Christ is The Way - the way to what? It gets somewhat convoluted throughout PFAL but I never took it to mean that absent meant gone and not hmmm, literally around. "Different" - that's covered in the N. T. In and amongst us - that is too. A changing field of view and one that will continue to come into focus as other changes occur - yes. That's the way I see it. To add - I think a lot of "Christianity" becomes too focused on the process instead of the end result. We get knit picky about doing every little thing right and getting lined up correctly at the Door and forget we're supposed to be inside the House, so to speak. Living the relationship. It's as if we want to be experts at the process, when the process is one that really involves living the reality we're in. Absent - present - all of that - if we're actually living and experiencing our relationship with God through Christ that doesn't make sense. -

"The more the state 'plans' the more difficult planning becomes for the individual." "...hate the past".... The future? Fear might be a good word to describe micro management in 15 minute intervals. Fear that what might happen will happen. Something won't go right, something will go wrong. What if something goes right that I wasn't expecting? I'm so removed from this type of Wayfer thinking you describe Bolsh that it's hard for me to imagine living like that. I'm all for planning, etc. blah blah. That goes with the territory. But under the auspices and direction of an organization like The Way where "biblical research and teaching" and fellowship is supposed to be what they do - it's ridiculous. Not to mention the dim bulbs and dull knives that populate that place - it's just, yeah. Not good.

Somewhere in the 90's didn't Martindale declare that the "Word had gone over the world" and it was time for Phase Two, or something? Was that when the "Prevailing" household stuff solidified? Reason I'm wondering is - cultural shifts are generally though to occur in real time with some real basis for the change and then get recognized somewhere in the bubble of the change. Recognition is external to the actual change itself. Once people become self-conscious of what they're doing the dynamic of the change hmmm....changes and becomes informed by that recognition and measured differently. As a "thing" rather than a living process. Being self-aware while it's ongoing and not affecting the shift itself is difficult - lots of examples of this - like the 50's, Jack Kerouac, Woody Guthrie, who were causing a ripple effect without being aware that entire generations would know about it and they'd be on posters or referenced in TV commercials for cars decades later. Or that Bob Dylan would come along. It seems like LCM must have become very aware of where he was in the timeline of the Way and that something like "Word Over the World" wasn't going to happen within a single lifetime without a continual authentic experience within the participants. That happened in the 60's and early 70's and then became inculcated into The Way's "culture". The routing was circuitous to be sure but I doubt even that it was clear what the exact outcome would really be. That kind of personal authentic experience and "culture shift" doesn't just "happen" the same way in a controlled environment-even if the impetus is manufactured, there's elements of spontaneity and creativity that are involved that will be lost by watching, observing, evaluating and measuring it.. Absent a real authentic experience that bubbles up and over of it's own power I could see someone deciding to go the controlled manufactured route - if "It" ain't happening on it's own, start hammering and stacking and trying to duplicate the core experience by manufacturing it. Or perhaps just give up and move on to something else. Self-improvement to the extreme, micro managing to the point that the process and keeping to it becomes the measure of success rather than the means to an end. Dunno, just thinking. Doesn't matter now, that's for sure. It's odd that the reality of history didn't inform our thinking more, well I guess it did but it took time.

Thanks T. There are so many things that have gotten wrapped up in this - once someone accepts that their own effort is the source of all true change in their life and the only single source of access for God to "live" in their lives it hmmm, changes everything - man is at the center, God has no hands but ours, we're at a temporary stand off waiting for someone to make the first move. Is that the message of the Bible? God is the creator - but man then creates his own reality from the tools given him, as if it were his own destiny and purpose and God's intent for the construction of the reality He wants. "Adam and Eve" - first man and woman in a perfect world, choose....poorly...but now through their believing action can fulfill God's original purpose. God is love - redefine the entire history of the Old Testament (man's entire existence from Day One) to exclude anything that might be thought to be "negative" to seve our modern fat, happy and oil-rich sensibility where we think we should have anything we want that we of course really need because God would of course want that. For us. Jesus saves - eternity isn't enough, nor a life filled with a relationship with our heavenly Father, we get stuff now, stuff that won't rust or really be destroyed like all the rest of our stuff when we die but will have value towards "spiritual rewards" later, as if we'll each have our own U-Haul pull up to the Judgment Seat to lay testimony to the abundance we accumulated in this life of believing. Prayer - community with God and our inner hearts becomes mankind's Request Line for whatever it is we're being bugged by. "Bless this food for the nourishment of our bodies, God". Pass the Big Mac's, they're holy, non-toxic and only the good stuff gets through now.. The list goes on.

"Law of attraction" is common sense, with limitations, IMO. "Like for like". Look at a magnet though - opposites attract there, north and north repel. There are intrinsic differences in male/female - I don't think I'd call them "opposites" (and doing so has created a huge morass of unnecessary conflict and misunderstanding that so many people accept - good for answer-guru book sales and speaking tours but incorrect IMO) Male and female aren't opposites and once you get past that it's easier to see how attraction can occur between diverse backgrounds and people. And oh if there were a law to govern that but alas, there appears to be none. The effort to synthesize, define and state one thing down to a governing "law" is the real problem in the believing/attraction thinking. Assuming that any one thing supercedes all others as the magic bullet so to speak is wrong and going to fail. I'd say there are "foundational" and basic rules of the road, "laws", that work together. A strong effort or dominance of one over others can produce a result - nature's filled with examples of that. But there are limits - one thing like how I think about something (positive or negative as they say) can be the cause of certain results but there are limits - I don't think it's any more complicated than the limits of what a mental thought can accomplish. It can govern my actions, what I do, how I respond, etc. That can have an effect on another but it certainly can't control what another does or thinks. "Manipulation" is different than that and I see the believing/attraction as manipulation (not meaning that in a negative sense). Simply that through concerted effort a person can effect change. I could call it "work" or effort too. In PFAL the "law of believing" is wound pretty loosely. All of the positive thinking baggage that was used to inform that idea is misleading too. The point worth taking from PFAL is very simple IMO and amounts to learning and understanding God's will as best a person can and trusting in that. Does God want people sick? Frankly I can't read God's mind but it appears obvious to me that the nature of life is served by a core state of "health" where organisms singly and together are free to exist, function and grow. I'm a collection of those as a human being. When one part breaks down or fails the whole group is affected - "me" sick or failing isn't as functional as me healthy and fully operational. But the limits of "me" are what they are and it appears obvious to me again that failure will occur, sooner or later, in parts and ultimately in the whole. Inbetween birth and death, trusting and pursuing God's will, a "best case scenario" of life both mentally and physically that relies on God's guidance and sustainance would produce the optimum results. "Fail-safe"? Through a single "law" that governs them all? I think in the whole picture of things there's no such thing and isn't supposed to be - except for one - honor the creator of life, God, and expect Him to foster and inspire my own life in what I bring to Him. Bring a lot, expect a lot - live and learn. In all the verses of the bible that "positive" thinker-doctrines cherry pick a fundamental understanding is lost and it's right in the bible where the verses come from - that is the underlying message of the bible of God's "sovereignty" and accepting that "what will be will be". We can't control everything, aren't meant to and will never in this life. If we could someone would have by now. We through how we think and choose can cause results in and by our actions. Jesus Himself taught and lived doing the will of "His Father" and His life as that Son gives an example to consider and learn from. (Why did VPW die of cancer? He was going to die of something. If anyone including him thought of what was being taught about this entire topic they'd know that. No one can overcome the limits of this physical life from it's realities).

You bring some good points there WW. "Father" is a term that has meaning. The relationship between a Paul and certain people he'd taught and come to know could be described by that word, the writer of Corinthians used it anyway - but really I then think "so what?". I don't believe it's as significant as one might be led to think - especially when I look at the verses you have there WW. Telling someone that they should do such and such because I'm their 'father" in the "Word" - that doesn't follow with the broader messages of the New Testament that speak about God, Jesus Christ, our relationships, and my relationships with others in my life. There's no "father in the Word" role in the New Testament, is my point. . It's really not a pivotal point in anything other than describing how a relationship began or developed. Saying "VPW is my father in the Word" - so what? Y'know? It doesn't have a great deal of significance to me, either way and not only because he's dead but for all the other reasons.

These boys are still around, more or less. Sometimes I just need a dose of this chaotic funk-bliss. <br> Man, the bass goes xxx rated into a deep round heads-down pocket around 2:24... <br> And the organ glissandos in the double time section at the end is off the chart - sounds like he does it with his shoulder. <br> With further adieu - Fishbone, "Everyday Sunshine". <br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QV5Nkah8nP8?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

To add: Paul's description of himself in I Cor. 4 as father is fairly clear. (I think) Though the people he was writing to had many teachers or instructors, they have one person who had "fathered" them in Christ or had "begotten them through the gospel". He also asks them to be "imitators" of him and that Timothy would soon be there to "remind" them of "his ways". There's a two fold relationship and responsibility being described. "Paul" defends his lifestyle, habits and actions amongst those he's talking to here - in fact, he does that several times throughout these epistles. He doesn't say "follow me", I "fathered" you - regardless of what I do and/or teach - he asks this of them because he wishes to fulfull the responsibility of his relationship, one that he's held up on his end by the way he lived and conducted himself. He's trustworthy and has proven it so he asks for trust. He's taught them at great personal expense and effort and asks that they give him respect for that effort. Y'know - I don't dance on VPW's grave and there was great value for me in the Way and learning as I did. But - I don't care whose feelings it hurts - VPW simply didn't fill the role of "father" when he was playing around, screwing his marriage up,taking advantage of younger women, and failing his responsibilities to his children by putting their entire lives at risk, and very importantly leaving all of it for others to deal with after his death. I'm sure they don't like hearing about it Exkarate' - I wouldn't either. But who's fault is it? If nothing else he could have settled his life's business before he died, he certainly knew it was coming. He didn't - he let it go. So the way this has rolled out is ultimately because of both what he did and how he left it for others to deal with. That's being a "bad" father in the Word" as far as I'm concerned. (and my wife and family feel the same way)

Wondered about that. Good idea. The facts will speak for themselves, when more are known I guess. Not really a clear "story" to follow here, although the fact of people risking and then losing significant amounts of money coming from retirement funds and home mortgages is tragic. Everything went up and down the last few years, a little or a lot (with some exceptions but overall). The prognosis isn't in nor the recovery forecast although it's clear that high risk and big greed have been factors. So anyone marketing a big return, low risk money maker - you'd have to question it, look at it carefully and proceed cautiously. These people on their site sound like they did. Perhaps this was marketed as a way to protect against the shifting going on last couple years, tighten up your funds in a "secure" portfolio. . Given the investment climate of the last few years most people wouldn't take on risk without a great deal of confidence and trust both in the investments themselves and who ever's managing their portfolio. Everyone makes mistakes, investor and investee. Investmenets are doing good, everyone's happy, yae, we like this then not so much when the money goes down. That's what happens. This doesn't sound like that's the entire story here. Face value it sounds like money was put into one investment system to pay for another. It also sounds like communication to his customers - those whose money he was managing - was sketchy at key times that it appears money was in flux and ROI was tanking - "ducking and hiding". Kinda weird but fits a lot of stories we hear about on the News. . Not a good scenario if it was your money.

Good point. That guy Rico "The Mouth" that talks for the Way strikes me as a complete bonehead. Again, welfare doesn't come free Ric'. Somebody's paying for it. Talk about lipstick on a pig.

But there's lots of dik heads like this guy pushing get-rich investment schemes. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. The Way itself has squandered the investment of the most important resource they had - their people. The actual lives, intelligence and committment of the real living human beings who built the place. Who would possibly think they could influence any honorable or sustainable investment of anything else?

"I find it ironic that they brag on their masterful command of the law of believing, that brings them a limitless supply of abundance and meanwhile they tap into every resource they can find that is set aside for the poor." This just in - a wikipedia source quoted but all PELL documentation uses similar language: "Because Pell Grants are targeted toward students from low-income families, recipients are often used by researchers to count low-income students and to indicate the economic diversity of the student body." Apparently for Wayfers God meets your needs through the grants and taxes given and paid by others (the Way's income is tax-exempt and I doubt any paid staff family contributes much to the federal tax fund yearly) All that filthy unbelieving lucre for the taking, it must be hard to say no. I agree that there's nothing wrong with using grants and federally funded programs. I believe the assumption is that those who benefit early will pay into the system that gave them a leg up, later. Nothing's free, someone somewhere is always paying. The middle class earners and payers have been continuously and methodically priced out of most of these programs - once your income hits a bracket and you're doing "well", many if not all of these programs become well out of your reach. Meanwhile COL goes up and up and income's become flatter and flatter. "Abundance"? If a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat so goes the saying. Apply that principle to tax funded grants, gifts and scholarships and the result is easy to see - if you're not contributing and you don't intend to and disrespect the source of of the goodies, keep your hand out of the cookie jar. Law of Believing? I'd expect they'd be rolling in abundance with 3 chickens for every pot - one to eat, one to save and one to give away. Instead they seem to be scrounging for giveaways. Doesn't make sense. Doesn't anyone work, earn salaries, save money, hire employees, share with others, plan for a moderately wet if not rainy day? In Way World someone else is always paying. For everything. Every slice of bread, gallon of gas and mouthful of breakfast lunch and dinner, the oven that it cooks on and the roof that keeps the snow off their heads while they sleep on a full tummy. So yeah....they may be no more hypocritical than any other gang of freeloaders but they should at least have the dignity to not celebrate it. The Way could have pursued any number of financial options over the years to benefit their employees as well as their members. They just don't give a s--t, it's plain as the nose they bit off to spite their face.