socks

My handle picked me.

The Giants are up again! Season's on, and they're shaking out the bugs. Rings, parades. Sammy Hagar and Joe Satriani doing the SPB! 2011 - keep it going!

Derail......or is it?..... I love the modern version of "trippin'".....as when someone does something goofy or ill advised, and someone says "Oh man, you are trippin"....."....guy gets all whacked out, angry and someone says "Hey, don't trip on that...." Meaning is very compressed and compact, "tight" as it were. WW, I think it's just become a bell ringer amongst the ex-Wayfer non-tripped out Christians who still stand on some version of the previously revealed truth. 'Course anyone who knew VPW in his day would KNOW, without a doubt or equivocation that he'd be turning purple twice over if any one of his original premises taught were changed one iota (!) even a little bit and even more that in doing so they claimed were really following "in his footsteps" and doing what he'd have wanted done. So on a side note it's funny that some who have changed so much think he'd be proud of their work today. He wouldn't be. He'd hate it. It's much the same as his last couple years there, when Craig and Don would reference him or trot him out like a doll to "be" the President and Founder, all the while changing anything and everything first behind his back and then finally not really caring. Within their own ranks it was the babies eating the bather, to coin a phrase. Everyone knows that. And for my dollar the second I hear anyone who's changed anything from VPW's teachings saying they're following in his original path I immediately know that 1. they never really knew him at all or 2. they're plain liers, if they did. They've completely disconnected from reality. Which may be a good thing but invoking his name is kind of funny, in a very unfunny way.

If you can think of a better way to communicate "throw out the baby with the bathwater" then have at it. If you can think of a better definite article than 'the' have at that, too. I'll leave "the" alone, it's earned it's place. Baby and bathwater was fine the first 100 times I heard it in the context of Wayfer's leaving the Way. Think it was in a John Lynn writ. John Lynn's about as glib as it gets and is kind of a poster child for fast-talking-now-u-see-it-don't-worry-if-you-don't-get it. So it didn't surprise me there. Then it seemed to gather steam in ex-Wayfer circles. THIS and many other LINKS googled can shed light on the origin of the phrase. As always I'd recommend some comparative reading to get a handle on it. (note to self: check on "handles" and possible origins relating to "scandals" and the relationship of rhyming to meaning). But I get your point johniam. Use the word "available" in certain circles and they'll go nuclear on you (note to self: check that one too). And that's good because using that word post-Way indicates the need for a good brain scrub to avoid a rash of bad dreams populated by people dressed in polyester suits carrying bibles. Yet - I admit it. I'm tired of that phrase "baby and the bathwater". It's "glib" - it indicates to me a lack of thought, an easy way to refer to a topic that is really much larger and deeper. I'm ready for discourse, and ready even for newer better ways to express things. Or even newer applications of the old ways that ring real today. I'd never ever use that phrase myself. It just never got into my language. I take baths, I've bathed babies. I'd never throw the baby I was bathing out after the bath, never let it drain out with the water, can't see how it would fit down the drain. What kind of a person, upon bathing their baby, would - while tossing out the used water - toss the baby out wth it? You get the picture - the metaphor, the comparison there is ridiculous, there's a moment of apprehension upon hearing the statement and then a rejection of it because it's too unrealistic. Perhaps as a comedic device but then you'd need the visual and that would require a context and some background on the character. Funny isn't an easy thing to achieve sometimes. I'm not sure that's funny. So yeah. Another derail. But "tripped out" harkens back to another day and time, means something completely different and of course has no meaning as used outside Way circles I'd suspect. Which is why I asked what that means these days. Used in Way circles when the VPster picked up on it in the 60's - getting the meaning required context. The term as used outside the Way had meant the state of mind resulting from doing something. You see the difference in how it's become used in Way circles over the years? Today, as Tony used it, it's not the same at all as it was used originally in hippy jargon, nor by the early Wayfers. It's a glib phrase meaning in context "no longer believes what you once believed" in God, or whatever. Informed by the implications of it's external meaning and usage it carries too much baggage with it to be clear and initiate a clear response. And we wonder why the Bible can have different interpretations? This is all sort of like when two guys know a guy named Jack and one says "Aww, you don't know jack about computers", and the other guy says "Hey, I do too know Jack!" And the first guy starts to test him on Windows versions and the second guy says "let's ask Jack, he knows all about computers", and the first guy says I didn't mean to find out about Windows versions really I was trying to see if you know jack about them" and the second guy says "Aw man, that's really jacked up" and the first guy says "Jack wouldn't like it if you said that" and the second guy says "You don't know jack about how he'd feel!" and the first guy says "Yeah, well, you don't either" and they then both agree that Jack is a nice guy. "Who's on first?".................. This is too complicated. I need to relax doing some al gore isms or something.

The forest for the trees, well put Sudo. Zamb, I'm a real love bunny when it comes to most things but being what I'd call a Christian I don't have much patience for all of the organized busy work that constitutes ministries like the Way. I know people still in the Way, involved, whatever and they're fine people I respect. That's because they live real lives and do real things and have real faith. I don't put much truck in the business of ministries and that goes for all of them. I prefer people. So I don't give stars for membership or affiliations of any kind. That goes for websites too. And everything doesn't have to be "Christian" to be good or have good purpose. I work for a company that does good work, make a good salary - nothing Christian about it. Play music with people - they don't have to recite Romans 10:9 and 10 for me before we play. I'm the Christian, as far as my faith I bring it with me. You don't have to have any to have my illuminating presence and all the benefits that go with it. Sad? I'll bring the happy. I'm sure you have a lot of worthwhile and cool stuff to share - please do. These atheists need all the help they can get. :biglaugh:

The point that "require" is a theological issue is good, and correct. Since there's nothing in the N.T. that outlines a clear mandate to tithe after the Mosaic laws and customs it's really a dog that won't move if you don't kick it. Throw some meat in it's face and it'll jump but on face value, there's no case for it. The Jewish Christians held to their own customs as they saw fit - that was a theological issue in the N.T. In Acts 15 the Gentile converts to Christianity weren't on the hook for anything other than a few basic directives that amounted to avoiding the most common secular and non-Jewish practices they were seeing. So from an administration standpoint the first "council" determination was to not impose O.T. laws and customs on them. I'm a Gentile. The Jews can keep arguing over whatever they want to, I'm only at the party because of Christ. The N.T. makes the case that the party is one with a new ticket, but clearly not everyone sees it quite the same way. But if I build on the direction of the founding generation of Church Fathers - no tithe. There's several ways to view the topic IMO but the conclusion's the same and has nothing to do with whether to tithe or not and all to do with the New Church of Christ.

Something GS has helped me to understand is that the TWI stuff that went bad for some people wasn't usually the cause for them to stop "believin'g" or to change what they believed. In other word, it wasn't as if - Oh, that Way leader was so bad to (me) and lied to me and treated me so bad. Now I hate God! You'll notice more and more as you read that while these kinds of experiences do effect people, people do step back and away and can then see better, a little clearer and more objectively. It is in fact easier to separate the Baby from "bathwater" - a metaphor I really hate because it's so glib but I get what you're saying I think. it's easier to see what's fluff and what's stuff once you just clear the decks and the air and evaluate what you're doing and thinking. God can be very involved in that too by the way which I'm sure you know.

what does tripped out on God mean these days?

"Storing food seems a bit alarmist to me...but, I usually have so much in the house....it is enough to last. Water is another issue though...we have a well and when the power goes out...we got zip. That I store...to flush the toilet! " That's the beauty of simple catastrophe planning geish - most of what you'd need you probably own right now. Add an organizational plan, basically a list of what's where, maybe some reshelving or boxing, a few extras like batteries, etc. and you're there. It's really just a short thinking exercise. Water - if you have a water heater, 40-60 gallon, you already have that in storage. Food is not a big deal - canned and bagged stuff, we don't have anything we've bought tha'ts "survival" food. Couple times a year we go through the tuna, canned chicken, applesauce, etc. etc. and add back in what's out of date. There's probably some out of date stuff floating around in the back of our cabinets right now - but we'd eat it, it's not like it's dated 20 years old. Your BBQ, propane, etc. Camping lanterns, rechargeable flashlights, radio, the hand crankers. I'm not in Survivor Mode - but the kinds of normal disruption planning + camping stores = most of what we'd want and need.

Understood, sky. My point is - "security" was only thought to be a need early on because of local harrassment - it wasn't a part of a "program" to manipulate those at the Way. "However, there is a part of me that wonders if Saint Vic didn't create this situation." No, not as I saw it or see it So-crates, but that's certainly going to come to mind now, later. Cause and effect, sure, there's going to be some there. And the effect on the local community had to be stressful - small farm town, buildup of activitiy. But no - then as now I live by the rule that we can be at peace and from a distance if need be to maintain that peace. Soon as that line is crossed we're on a different path. I'll move back but there's only so much room for that if it's just not working out. VPW - the grudges weren't a result of that. I met some of these people over the years - they were just as-sholes, garden variety. Heard about something, knew about something, maybe. Acting on it - if the local community had wanted to address something they could have. Geisha - thanks good insight. the local community was for the most part pretty patient and tried to maintain a peaceful relationship from afar if need be. A little bit goes a long way. The cultural shock alone would warrant some reaction and some sorting out. It happened in many cases. I grew up in Oakland, CA. Guns meant different things Hunting yes. You pull one out in a car, even in the 50's and 60's - it means something entirely different.And given the number of times it took for some of them to actually hit that sign on 29 to leave some damage I'd assume their gun safety knowledge was as bad as their aim so no - I never took it lightly.

Thanks, I appreciate your forthrightness. Couple thoughts - "Security" at the Way was an odd kind of thing - it was known to me as "The Farm" when I first went there it felt completely safe, probably one of safest places really. The need to be on the alert was a result of the local community yokels joy riding down Wierwille Rd. and into the property. The Way activities never warranted that. You'd get a car full of townies ripping down the road or throwing s--t on the grounds, trashing it. The business about people going by at night and shooting holes in the sign out on 29- Shelby County in the dead of summer makes a bingo game look wild so I guess in the absence of anything worthwhile to do there was always trying to screw with the Wayfers to fall back on. That kind of stuff might seem warranted by those of you who now have grievances against the Way but it's not. People get arrested for doing stuff like that, get shot or worse. But in New Knoxville it went on and the local police could turn a blind eye to it or flat out ignore it. Imagine coming to New Knoxville, meaning no harm and having no grudges against anyone let alone people you've never met before and then having a bunch of local teenagers, kids about your own age, doing that kind of stuff. Growing up on a farm doesn't automatically make you a bad as s regardless how much beer you drink. For the most part..........nobody faced off over this stuff in the early years. And VPW was very clear that some of these people were meaner then snot so be VERY careful about walking into Adolf's on a Friday night and making a move to throw down if someone started in. And people there would do just that - make no mistake about it, lines were drawn and it was wise to keep the peace. There were a few instances where there were....confrontations. For the most part though it was kept down, the large numbers of the people typically on the grounds kept the average joy riders nipping at the edges, in the dark, when they'd find an opportunity. Yelling and cursing, screaming at women if they were out. That's bull-s--t, period. Today anywhere else - forget it. There'd be war - somebody'd wrap one of those cars around the people in it and dump it in Lock 2, if it's still there. Or maybe just get the local "police" to do their job. Many of you may not know this to factor it into your evaluations but the need for security then wasn't to jerk Corps around or control people or anything like that at all. It was to keep an eye out for these goofballs. And while you may think we were all brainwashed jerks it's a testimony to the intent of the people there at that time that no one ever gave those guys what they deserved for terrorizing people at The Way at that time. What developed over the years was like some weird transmutation of a purpose that at it's basis had cause. Unfortunately there's always weirdo freaks who get the urge to harrass others, make fun of them, trash them and try to scare them. What goes around comes around, in this life and the next IMO.You may avoid it coming but you will get it, going.

Good points, So. I've worked in the insurance industry for the last 20 years or so and have gotten some insight into every major (and many minor) CAT's that have occured in the U.S. over that time frame including Katrina. There's a 1,000 plus stories with that one that have never been told and likely will never be but it did reveal a lot regards our overall ability to respond, especially when it comes to risk anyalysis. You're describing total failure of systems - Kartina's a good example but there's 100's of smaller ones in every state every day where a significant number of normal systems go down, fail or aren't available to the extent that human's are at risk. Gangs of ransacking armed citizens - in that scenario your risk exposure doesn't go up because you have a freezer of steak and hamburger in the gararge or a lot of extra water bottles around that no on can see from the street. Houses would be ransacked either for desctructive puproses or to get stuff - whether there's occupants and supplies or not. Basically that's a different kind of risk and should be anylyzed and planned for differently than say, having enough food or water to live on for a month or so. Gangs of ransacking armed citizens therefore don't factor into food and water preparation within an average household, in other words you shouldn't not do one because of the other. Not to say that's not a problem to prepare for - it could be. I guess if you had a sign up on your house that said "We have food but only enough for us so leave us alone", you might be asking for trouble.

How would anyone know? I have a 2 week supply of food and water for 4, and it uses very little space, no one would even see anything out of the ordinary if they walked through my garage or house. Well, the garage looks like a small tornado already went throught but other than that....most of the emergency supply stuff is part of our camping stuff, which is all packed in a few crates. Not that much space usage really. A year's a lot - too much unless you have the space, I agree. and as noted, a lot of it will go bad or stale out within the yea anyway. I could go to a 30 day and it would still be minimal.

Just seems like VERY FEW ever connect the dots back to wierwille/trustees. there are many roads...the lead to Chicaaaago... I still say what I realized from the get-go then - The Way wasn't my idea. I got involved to make a contribution, put forth my own ideas and goals that I felt were important to me and to throw them into the pot, become a part of a larger effort and more people, resources, etc. etc. None of us need The Way or the Class or the books or the breezey wistful wind in the corn fields of Shelby County Ohio to do anything remotely resembling "Christiainity". Remove all of that and anything like it and you're still starting from the same place. Anyyyyway - I answer to God for everything. I already answered to God for cutting ties with The Way. I got a raise and some time off for good behavior. As far as anything real in my life that was involved in that - and it had nothing to do with specific people and never would have - it's over. I don't despise anyone, if you were my friend then you are now. Doesn't matter to me if anyone feels differently back - that's their perrogative.

One advantage to a community that's all in one place wearing matching tin foil caps and reading their bibles is that at least you know where they are.<br><br> Steely Dan had the right idea. <br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vVy0ZVQcl7E?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"Do you all think that twi-er's preparations (including so many people purchasing guns) could have gone really badly? Or was it all just silliness? " Wasn't in TWI at the time, so can't say. Reading online though and a few conversations here and there, lof ex-TWI people seemed caught between planning for the worst and expecting the best - wrangling to figure out how to get prepared but not look like they were doing it out of "fear". Mass telecommunications breakdown and worldwide hysteria - at it's worst, yeah you better be getting butterflies in the tummy. It's never silly IMO to assess risk and prepare for it. Just because it was Wayfers doesn't make it stupid or silly. Had our infrastructure train wrecked it could have gotten ugly quick in a microwave society that can't wait 5 minutes for water to boil. Ws it going to? No - but it took awhile to get that nailed down and there was a level of risk there yes Guns? I don't trust anyone with a loaded gun, or easy access to one. Too many weirdo's around, in the Way, ex-Wayfers and oh yeah, most of the other few biillion who have never heard of the Way.

Guns? If they start holding target practice in our cul de sac.... I'm moving.

Not knowing the level of paranoia they exhibit - short answer - "no". Not dangerous at all, well advised actually. People should make whatever catastrophe preparations make sense for their own situations and risk enviornment. Flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, wuddever. Natural events, weather, etc. can cause disruptions to service and lifestyle anyway - just crank it up a notch. A lot of people jump hot on somethig like this because of a serious event and then go lax once the immediate distress is over, or off their TV's, whichever comes first. It's amazing to me how people don't even have a contact plan in place for their families should something occur that would require they make contact immediately. Or if they can't how they will meet or be in touch - where to go, etc. There's heightened interest these last few years in "The Return", apocalypse, "the End" - etc. Some people do feel that they End is near. If anyone's sure that the World is Ending Soon and would like to leave their home, car or other stuff with someone who would take good care of it can contact me directly at "seeya_socks_gottago_heresmystuff!@NoMoGo.com And don't rely on the Mormon's example or let the Way's Y2K plan stiff you on having a plan in place in case Chicago becomes the new East Coast or something- a lot of people see them with a bias and figure they're nuts anyway so why follow suit? :) Learn from the Boy Scout, grasshopper. Be prepared. :)

Sex isn't the basis for a marital union or "consummation" - John 4 17-18, Jesus said to the woman, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband'; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly." Marriage is described in the bible as a man and woman leaving their parents homes and authority if you will, committing to one another and together becoming "one". It's far less a metaphysical event or process and more a simple joining together of two different people into one common and committed relationship. If the intention is to proliferate and build upon each generation then there has to be continuity, and that comes from each generation moving along and forward. Sex can't be the basis - although there are different interpretations of John 4 and the women, her "husbands", and the man she lived with at the time it's reasonable to assume that some sex would have been some part of the relationships. Yet, that's not the defining component of those relationships when Jesus speaks to this woman. Something else was going on there. If one was to keep to a strict definition of sex as the conumanater then Jesus was saying she's consummated 5 marriages but hadn't with her current man-dude. Doesn't make sense. What'd that guy do so wrong he wasn't gettin' any? Maybe it was him Jesus should have been talking to then. Just sayin'. Genesis - "be fruitful and multiply" - ol' Adam and Eve were a pair right out of the gate. Their job amongst others was to care and tend the flora and fauna, Planet Earth. And to have kids, children, offspring. That means sex. Lots and lots apparently if you look around today. Tough job but somebody had to do it and they got going soon enough I'd expect. One record in John a doctrine doesn't make but overall there's some emphasis in the N.T. on the marriage relationship. A lot of that emphasis today is placed on sex, presumably because men do a lot of the sermonizing. But it's only one part of the relationship. The Way had a lot of horny men and women it would seem but that's kind of a duh conclusion - everyone was young. Lots of uh, energy. But the idea of minsters who were working so hard and so long "on the road" away from their women that they needed a taste on a regular basis is ridiculous and anyone who would think of it for a minute would conclude - well, stay home more big guy. Build your family at home. But there's just too much work to do, so little time and so much urgency to do it. Barely enough time to grab a burger, get some and then get back to doin' the Word. Cuz it's all about the Word, the Word, the Word. That is of course, b---s--t, plain and simple.

Uh...y'think? Or maybe just maybe he was afraid it might not be clear enough just who he wanted you to know who he was so he felt compelled to make it really really really really clear so then you'd know for really really really sure.

If you're on someone's payroll, you have to abide by the conditions of your employment. Anyone have a copy of the or their employment contract? - some kind of agreement would have had to be signed and processed during LCM's hiring phase. . That would tell a lot. Putting the entire Way Corps on the books as employees was insanity, a financial melt down in the making from Day One. If someone had done the math they would have seen it coming - apparently no one had a calculator or if they did they just went along with it. I remember hearing that the Way nearly drained their bank account in the 90's as a result - Howard A. in a Trustee? meeting reported they were within a couple 100 K of bottoming out. LCM had to back up quick. H.A. retired within the year. Etc. Etc. Duh. They're really a nutty, kind of a "Three Stooges Start a Ministry" reality show. How's that go -Luke 14: 28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’ 31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples. Basically, don't get in the water and later say you never thought you were going to have to swim.. Don't attempt to say you're going to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and not consider what it's going to involve. Half way out to sea is no time to say you don't like being out on the water. The Way doesn't read their own bibles and can't learn from it. They (or the myriad of other modern businesses masquerading as "ministries") assume that by dealing with people's wallets and time they can build "disciples".

Never heard about the change in view on the Trinity. Is that validated in any way? I'd assume that in one's final moments many things come to mind. On the stuff in Romans - chapter 5 has some plainly stated stuff - Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

On the other hand - about 20 years? ago around 1990 or '91, I was driving to work one morning and heard a song, about 1/2 of it, and it really caught my ear. I waited in the car to see if the DJ would say who it was, and I only heard part of something I thought was "Toys in the Attic" - the song used the name "Jenny" throughout, the name of my daughter so it caught my ear- wasn't sure if the song was Toys in the Attic, or the band was named that or what. It reminded my vaguely of Steely Dan too. Later I tried to find it and couldn't. So this was about 20 years ago....I listen to a lot of music but have never heard it again.<br><br> Every once in awhile I look around to find it, hoping I'll find it through a search online but never have and it's kinda bugged me. I couldn't remember much of the lyrics but if I hear something I tend to never forget it and there's a lot of sounds rolling around up there. (long story). So I assigned a color to it - marine blue - filed it away and figured that was that. <br><br> I really like Richard Page (Mr. Mr., 3rd Matinee) and tonight on youtube - I ran across the song. It's titled "The Ballad of Jenny Ledge" and is by Toy Matinee. And it's wonderful. Really really wonderful to find this song and hear it. It sounds just like it did 20 years ago, and now - the entire song! So now I know how it starts and ends, much as I remember it ending. It's been kind of weird finally hearing it, sort of a time orientation thingie problem but that's all sorted out now. And sadly, I found out the singer has died, and this was their only release as a band. Great band, great tune. I've listened to it twice now and wanted to share it.<br><br> Anyway - "The Ballad of Jenny Ledge". Finally. <br<br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hRGMEIX1a5Y?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization". Well, quoting Hubbard won't get us far but I think I know what you mean. I get the fear part of it and it effects most people more than they admit or even recognize. It always feels better to be accepted and praised for what we say rather than be shot full of holes. Group think, peer pressure. Education. Ignorance. Fear of punishment, anticipation of rewards. "Honesty" can be over rated too - I can be very honest while being very ill informed, misguided and even destructive. Code language today can leverage the appearance of honesty against the real thing by using phrases like "As far as i know" "As I understand it" "It was told to me that" "According to many sources" Those statements can all be very true to fact but held forth or heard as if they're ironclad - and they're not. I hear them a lot when the real truth would be "I don't know". but that doesn't make it for some people. So yeah, fear. Stuff. Wuddevah. Peter Green sang it very well when he sang "Don't ask me what I think of you - I might not give the answer that you want me to". Or put another way - be prepared for that instance when someone might not tell you that anything you do is okay because God is in the twinkle of every baby's eye and wrapped in the rainbow love bunnies that dance when we keep porpoise's out of our tuna cans - but might actually have something different to pin their beliefs on. (however, and just to be clear and not to offend any PETA people, love bunny owners or babies, present, past or future including their parents or siblings, born or unborn - no porpoise were harmed in the production of this post. While I do not worship them as deities or even icons of lesser stature I really really do think they have a lot to teach us. Really).

Glad you like it tonyz.:). I'm a long standing fan of both myself. Many of the topics on GS start as a Way-reference kinda deal but that gets old pretty quick IMO. Although some things really do sound better the 1,000 time you hear them - music's a good example.