socks

"Oh, yeah... I remember Cli*f Ad*elm@n telling me about that once in 1983 ... I just didn't know Moneyhands was with the group. " To add - there were only two of these POW camp-athons that occured to my knowledge. The one with LCM was first and a second time which was made up of participants from the 4th Corps which I was on, as was the Cliffster. They occurred in Sommerville's "Total Fitness Institute" program, AKA TFI. Both ended in blow ups on site at TFI. After the second one they were cancelled as being part of the "TFI training". Jack worked for TFI at the time and helped to run the various segments of the program wtih several others there. That's Jack, unless he has a twin brother. I never went to the LEAD or any of the subsequent versions of the program. TFI had some good aspects to it. I even still have the journal I kept in a small notebook and the report I wrote for VPW when we returned. It was about 50/50 on the negative in what I thought of the whole thing which was - overall, not worth the time, effort and risk. While John was a nice guy and certainly talented, it wasn't managed well at all. He had a larger vision than just providing access to the Way Corps and nearly all of the program structure was of his own making. He had great people working for him but it was uh, kinda shot loose if you know what I mean. There was some petty dishonesty amongst the people there and what seemed to be a mixed attitude about what they were doing. But overall, good folks. This had nothing to do with his connection to the Way, although he'd cut a deal with VPW to run these for the Way Corps and make part of the "training" program to provide labor while we were there and he was building his log cabins and living and work space. This offset some of the cost, which can't have been much more than a couple shoestrings at that point in his books, and helped him to get his operation up and running and off the ground. Leo M---r I remember particularly well, he and I helped a woman hike uphill at about 45 degrees in the night and the dark. the whole group was hiking and she'd slipped down so many times she simply wasn't going to make it up and was crying. Hel l, I was on the verge. I stopped to grab some of her stuff to carry and wait it out till she was ready and Leo came along behind us and without saying a word, took her pack from me, slung it over his arm and said let's go when you're ready. He hiked for about another hour with two packs weighing together at least a 120 lbs - and we got to where we were going which was sleeping on the side of the hill against trees so we wouldn't slide down. He was a good guy, and rather than bi tch people out (common in that gang) he just did what needed to be done. Hitchhiking all over the country and climbing mountains is a b-s--t call out to the past. Nothing wrong with climbing mountains but it's like pete and repete to me.

I used to hitch all the time as a kid. The 50's and 60's. Never had a bad experience, other than the standing around waiting. I guess there were some hoots and hollers, nothing that you'd remember 45 years later. Getting into a strangers car or truck is a dangerous proposition. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I did it, around town growing up and then later the TFI hitching experience, which again was not a bad experience for me. But it's a strange thing to my mind, to head out on the road and hitch hike 'cross country alone or with one or two other people. Many many people have done it but today - no. I get trusting God but I won't let anyone guilt me into being an old fart because this is how I see it now. Older is smarter, or should be. Why hitch if you can get there in a car of your own choosing? Put that energy and time into doing something besides proving to yourself that you can test God - and that's what it is, in essence. A game of tic-tac-doh! Just get in the dammed car and get where you're going. Seems simple enough. I think you do have to learn in life that you are up to it's challenges, but there are ways to do that without playing travel-roulette.

There ya go, WW. Thanks for responding.

Sorry TonYz, I guess my slip is showing. but geisha kinda says it for me there. Apologies if I read rude or overbearing. I'm just being honest and sometimes honesty is a dish best served cold, if you know what I mean. No insult - but if I heard someone anywhere else talking about people being 'tripped out' on God - honestly, you'd get an "uh-yeah-so how about them Giants, hey?" It's just an odd statement to address a condition that if as you have stated yourself, represents serious questions and concerns - I'd never refer to it that way because there'a a lot at stake there. Right? So to put it such a way demeans the whole topic. IMO. Like calling a Christian a Jesus-Freak. You're going to get different reactions from different people. If you'd like to discuss this here in a more specific way, what you see may be kinds of issues and problems that could be involved, and solutions - say on.

Texas fellas, "The MIght Orq". Nice guitar stuff 2nd half. <br> <br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sMqvViiRm6w?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Thanks. Funny - never knew that was a view but when I heard it was at the voting stage - well, never knew it. Thanks!!!

TZ - you're a good guy, or write like one IMO. Paw's not a "leader" of the board as stated by waysider. You really need to dis locate from preconceptions and what others tell you GS is and just check it out for awhile. Yeah, I'm telling you what you need to do, I'm a terrible bully. But if I'm wrong, let me know, you just read like you're not seeing what's actually happening online here. Course - maybe I'm not either, just as Paw may not be born again....if he ever was.....yeah.....yeah babee. Paw - as a leader - does not do as you describe any a-hole Wayfer goombah doing - so if you want to make him your new leader you could do worse I'm sure. For that matter, I'm available too. Send your Time Chart reports and $$$ to the SocksRetirementFund@TheGravyFarm.com and I'll work with ya, bruh. Here's what I've observed - when someone is an expert in a field or effort, they don't have to constantly climb over others to make it known they're good at what they do. The can be honest about it but they won't be compelled to beat their own drum all day everyday. They don't have to denigrate others or puff and pump themselves up with pompous pontifications to prove they know what they're doing. They just do it, or say it, or write it or whatever it is. In fact - When someone's an expert - they can afford to ease off the pedal a bit - they don't NEED constant gratification or verification to validate what they do. They can give a little room to someone else to do their thing, take some space, do some work. You think of Jesus - the first will be last and the last first - the greatest will be servant - the meek inherit - I guess what I'm trying to say is - when you have plenty to go around, you can afford to give a little to another. No skin off your nose if they ride the pony this time, it's cool. When someone is 1. always knockng others down and 2. elevating themselves, you will certainly see bad leadership. Even if it's just youthful vigor and stupidity - still bad.

Maia Sharp (Maia fans?) <br> <br> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vj7k7fKSPjY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks Mr. P - that's fine as is, I have no problem with that. For whatever reasons I guess I've never clicked past the poll vote view and didn't know it shows who voted how. "Out of the box" is perfect by me, thanks! excabernet, it's been awhile, for sure. :) Interesting link, geisha! I like "yes" on your own terms - no on your own terms - that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. Maybe I should re name the third choice "Something else besides yes or no". That's more or less what I mean. The variances are so many that I figured anyone who wants to can describe them here in. It's difficult to answer anything yes/no these days and I know what you're saying Ham. I appreciate your interest and patience. Cheers! TWI represents what may be the peak of redefining "Christian" as a word. If you were a "standing believer" back in the day you qualified, fully certified in ac'racy, etc. Everyone else - questionable. Like probably many of you - I don't look at it that way today. I'm accepted by most, don't fight with the rest and that's about it. I know who and what I am. That's enough for me.

Hey Paw - I'm not. Someone wrote me they were - so I dunno. It sounds like it's okay then. mstar - you're actually describing this poll choice "yes" perfectly - if YOU believe, consider, think you are - irrespective of whether or not anyone else does-or would argue you are...or aren't I don't care about cultural, religious, political or other definitions external to your own understanding and perception of yourself. How would you personally respond yes, no or (for whatever of a 1,000 other choices) you wouldn't be able to answer yes or no. I'm not looking for a fight here Ham - this isn't meant to make you feel like you're not a member of a club or something - it's a question. If you select yes fine. If you select no, fine. If you have anyone of another many perfectly swell and valid answers, select the third option and feel free to elaborate, as you are. Otherwise it's just a question. Thanks for responding!

Okay, Ham. that's okay. "Prefer not to" works for everything else in this poll besides a yes/no. It might be better worded "Not yes or no" - I just couldn't come up with wording that would communicate that anything besides yes/no is a 3rd category, whether it's a qualified yes or no or a maybe, not today, not sure, might be later, was once, etc. I can't see the respondents names but am told they're visible - I may have to start over.

Greetings peeps. Please respond to this survey. What's this all about, socks? I'm glad I asked. Not much, really. Just looking to get a head count here, based on 3 pieces of data - total number of responses, how many yes and how many no. I hope it's "anonymous" and works for everyone and only shows the bar graph for totals - your id name shouldn't be associated with the vote you choose but if it does, I'll re do this. There's no free prizes for voting but you will have the sense of pride and accomplishment that is sure to come from participating in a poll that I, socks, have created so don't miss this chance - if you would please pick one. There's no right/wrong-good/bad answer to this either, which is why I've added the option to participate but select Prefer Not To Answer. Nifty, hey? That way we, the gang on GS over the next week or so, can see how many people are around reading - remember - you can respond and not take a position on yes or no. You can comment or elaborate in the thread if you'd like, as much as you'd like, or not at all if you'd like. Not to. You don't have to explain anything to me, socks, but you can elaborate, extrapolate and prognosticate as much and as often as you'd like. Please do. Just what do I mean by "a Christian"? You can tell us if you want but if you consider yourself one and that's your faith-belief-system-tax writeoff-structured settlement plan - go for it. If you go to church, don't go to church, have a church of one, read the bible, don't read the bible, believe in the Trinity or not, whatever. Doesn't matter brand, blend or shirt size. Yes, no or Prefer Not to .......... that's it. All I'm looking for is an honest answer. That's all. Punch a choice and you're done. I was going to monitor this for say - 1 week, and tally up next week or when it seems responses are over. Thanks!

Well, perhaps in closing and pre-tripping out on this thread, one last thought-the johnster said: I think he was trying to bully me (and by association, Tony) into silence. This is where I think the dynamic or process of whatever of a discussion board is much like normal conversation johniam. In a group of people discussing something passionately, there will be those who speak loudly and often, others who listen more and speak less and some who text on their cell phone and grunt every once in awhile. Where different or opposing views are held on a specific subject, the perspective of the contributions will pretty much be the same - right? There may be different things discussed and expounded on but if you take a vote every 10,000 words to see who's changed their mind from their original position the vote's going to come up the same each time on the primary topic driving the conversation when the purpose is to express, explain, prove and extrapolate on those positions. "Silence"? When did that ever happen around GS? There's no silence around here. GS quacks as loud and frequently as any Grade A duck I've ever heard. It can't even close itself down. Announce it's closing and what happens - posting! There's no silence unless the new silence is the old noise X 10. However where opposing views meet - sparks will fly. I guess my point is just the Einstein thingie - doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting different results?.....hammer hits the nail, the nail goes in. Hit's the fingernail - ow! Pretty much always the same.

Just riffin' on a theme, waysider. The "wrong" thing is interesting too. "Everything". If everything was something else how would I know it? If I'm not even me what would I realize I was? Would I know who I'd thought I'd was? Everything can't be something else - something would have to remain constant as a reference point I'd think otherwise we wouldn't be cognizant of a change. It would be a moot point. IMO there's far more consistency in the chaos of life than we give credit for. Everything else can change - as long as I recognize it though everything didn't - which may be a reverse way of dealing with cognitive processes but in difficult times it's a rock in a storm.

Greed and ego.... On those ideas generally, and in relation to the future of life.... Greed - wanting in excess (definition somewhat fuzzy there I've noticed in most sources - usually requires some extra tagging to identify "greed") Greed is often associated with an "I-win-you-lose" scenario, where other outcomes can be sacrificed at the expense of another) Ego - everyone's got it. Self identification is normal, if someone doesn't have it they probably don't know they're reading this or weirder, may think someone else is - although I've read of those kinds of brain "disorders") Christianity is identified with "selfless" love and actions, etc. where the outcome doesn't depend on the initiator getting a benefit from what they do. People do this all the time though I think - I breathe, need to breathe and normally don't consider that it's pretty much for only my own benefit that I do. I don't breathe selflessly for the benefit of others that I might do something for them, I just breathe. Most of the time I don't choose to or not to - I just do it. I see life - and what Christianity terms "eternal life" as something similar. Life as we now know it doesn't come as a result of a self-initiated determination. Other religious concepts like karma show cause and effect but not self-execution. Life begins and continues, cycles and continues. Life itself doesn't decide to start or to end and it appears that's true in all instances of anything that's "alive". No "life" constructs itself or destructs itself of it's own internal processes. IOW - the "battery" as we now know it may have an expiration date but it doesn't determine that or execute that. As far as we know. And that's part of the issue here IMO - life can be defined in many ways but whether it's "spiritual" or a bio-chem-electro process in action it' doesn't appear to contain the steps that start and end - itself. There's a consistency to that in all examples I know of that implies design and intent. Purpose. Much debated that, I know - but when I've stepped back and disconnected from any expectation or realization of what I know as "life" and that state of awareness that I am, the trees all make a forest as it were. The similarities are astounding in this regard - diverse yes but very similar in ways. I can spin off into what I don't know and how can I know what I don't and what if it's all not what I knew before I has that last drink - I still end up waking up the next day and brushing my teeth. Nothing completely different ever shows up and suddenly we're all really salt crystals in a Bright Overlord of Orion's condiment rack.. Maybe it will. When it does I'll be sure to post it here, if that's possible. If not - you're on your own, sorry. So I see the battery thingie as having an inherent profile to it that goes to the human understanding of what we could call an "after life" but for my brain is better termed "continuance". It seems fairly logical and to be expected. "I am come that you might have life and have it in abundance". That could mean a lot of things. "Time" is likely one of them, although I'm not suggesting it's a list of stuff I get. Rather a quality of life that's full and realized. In some future "heavenly" scenario religious theological postulations imagine a state of blissful oneness where everyone drifts around lost in the wonder of it all, no thought for themselves. That may be what it's actually like I get a little dizzy at the sight of a decent sunset at the beach and suspend other interests and desires. But eternity's a long time and I'd suspect that sooner or later - well, I don't really know obviously. The state of mind could be such that memories are self-sustaining or perhaps not even accumulated the same way I do now. Maybe there'll be nothing to remember that's different than what I am experiencing at that moment. Dunno. But I get the sense that then as now, self-awareness will be intact and the realization of justice and righteousness will be clear, making cause and effect less serendipitous in it's vast and many permutations and more understood. Or not. Hope to see you there though!

"she gets to the pearly gates and st. peter is there (she's catholic) and he welcomes her right in. but she asks him why she doesn't have to spend any time in purgatory for her sins and he says: "where do you think you just came from" :biglaugh::biglaugh: Very good. I gotta joke I riff on with me Wife. I'll do something really bone headed, just AAA High Grade Real Beef Dumb. I'll tell,her, "Yeah, someday you'll be at Heaven's Door and the guy at the steps will check you in and go - wait. You're Janet? Married to BeefBrain?" And she'll nod and he'll say "Come on in, take the Fast Track to the Halo Sizing Booths!" :biglaugh: I'll be in Area 57, hanging with the Free-fers, waiting.

Can't respond without some adjustments: "Afterlife" - a term I don't use. Sounds - wrong. After.....life. If the life after....life has no battery, it's gone, over, done. I'm of the belief that life isn't terminal by nature, that it isn't meant to end but rather to be sustained. Physical life degrades over time. That's fundamentally wrong to me. It's not just wishful thinking but rather a conviction based on the human impulse to want to live as long as an individual instance of life wants to live, whether it be 90 years, 900 or 90, 000. The urge of life is to be alive. The basic human desire is to live as long as one can until one doesn't want to. And I can't sit down and decide "over" and stop it by the will of my own life. I can end it using different methods but I can't in and of myself only, stop it. I can wish to but I have to take action to do that. My "Life" can't shut itself down, a completely functional and healthy instance of life can't decide to not be alive anymore and terminate within and of it's own life. I phrase this as "life goes on and will go on until it doesn't". Real smart there, I know. The fact that something can end it doesn't mean that life itself is meant to end, IMO. So - Yes, the biblical vision of a God who, through this human path, intends for a longer span of life, makes complete sense to me. It just sounds right. And it sounds right to me that the bible speaks to that, albeit through hazy terminology at times. Yet, Corinthians, couple other spots, speak to it very directly. It's certainly possible that there we be on life....after....life. But I don't believe that to be the case. If there weren't? Wouldn't matter then, to me. I won't know about it. In the meantime, the path of following Jesus Christ is very satisfying and supports the idea that resurrection and continuance of life is what will happen.

"How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? " It's a merry go round here on that one, Tony. You're going 'round the first time. After a couple trips you'll see some of these impressions and conclusions made here on GS have become self-referencing. Circular reasoning circling on it'self. And yes, TWI becomes like a bad coffee stain on a shirt - some people are working on getting "it" out, others never will. Others never had it. But like a stain once you get it - stains love company (I guess). I only speak for myself and my opinions - I can honestly say that while I was "in" the Way and joined as a full membersand poured a lot of my time and energy into it, I was still "me" and still pursuing a personal path of life, faith and all the stuffing that goes along with it. So I never felt particularly manipulated, deluded, brainwashed or wasted in the effort. I was thinking as I went - actually using my brain. Someone wrote me recently that I'd known years ago and they paid me a compliment, although may not be aware of how much it meant - they wrote "you always seemed like you kept your own counsel". Another has contacted me and written "you helped me, when others wouldn't". Still another wrote me last year and said "thanks for the tapes you gave me years ago, still have them". (they were reel to reels of some Lightning Hopkins). That came before a guy dropped me a note saying he does a version of a song I'd written years ago in the Way. That blessed me. It really depends on who someone really WAS and IS IMO. if I were you - and I've posted on this thread too - I wouldn't defend or explain a 1,000 times how you really feel once you've done it if you feel the need to do it on any topic. Others can define you as a Weirwille "apologist" over time, a sympathiser, someone who doesn't really know what you know and will tell you you won't until you do something else, or stop doing that and start doing - whatever. Seriously. We will be completely serious and write that with a 'straight face'. Screw that. And screw me while you're at it. Speak your mind and be honest in what you post if you do. Expect to get loads and loads of good advice from well meaning people you've never met. It's what makes the internet so wonderful.

One side of me asks "who give a s--t?" :biglaugh: Another side wants to get the resources now being used to ponder that very question for more important work, like sleeping. Still another slice of the side next to that one is wondering how it can avoid thinking about ancient state legislative races with someone most people never knew, don't know now and probably will never meet. And a widdle iddy biddy teensy tiny bid of a side is thinking yeah, boy. That whole thing about the thing. Yeah huh and HUH boy. signed.... the many sides of socks

Celebrity recruitment is really a different topic - sort of I guess. GS sort of mixes up references on that and I just want to clarify something you reminded me of johniam. while "The Way Inc." may have wanted influence, the people themselves and what their Way involvement meant are two different things. F'instance in Skip and Dave's case, they weren't recruited by "The Way Inc." or anything close. About '71 Cookin' Mama did a gig in Lake Tahoe with TOP - our sax player hooked up with Skip and several of us spent some time uh, talking. Dave too, and he and Skip connected with others from the SF Bay Area later. I'd first met Skip when I was 13, in bands we were in at that time. Some of us had played in and around each other for years. There was no "recruitment" to "The Way Inc". There were some serious things some of us were dealing with at the time and opportunity for deliverance was a good thing, not a recruitment thing. We were grads of PFAL but not recruiting for the Way, we were witinessing to Jesus Christ and sharing the Bible. The Way wasn't something to join, it was something to do, to enjoy, a point of contact and gathering for people. PFAL was something we enjoyed and shared with others. The interest was very real and legitimate and involved the people, their lives and what they needed and how God provided. Can't speak for a lot of the others "names" that have come and gone over the years but if theirs was a similar experience it was people helping people. (I think this is common thread throughout my life - speaking for myself but not being a 'celebrity', others can speak for themselves. Whatever it was I did or shared it was because I thought it could help others in ways that God, Jesus Christ and knowing the Bible could help with. Being "in" The Way? That wasn't a bad thing for me and it was like lily white ice cream compared to some of what I'd been and been with before that. And when it became bad and it was time for change - that's what I did. It's not a perfectly walked path I've been on but the long view shows one that's been the right one. )

Both Geisha. Oh man - now you're gettin' jiggy alfakat. Toasted sourdough? Oh yeah. But don't throw out the bacon grease either! You can fry your eggs in it, and the deeper the hot bacon grease the better because then you can just float your egg on that grease and then your eggs are call SLIDERS. Tony, you're clearly in the right place. Say on bra' say on. And waysider you are in the house! My Mom did about the same thing when I was a wee tyke. Long before "Pam" the midwestern cooking style was to use that grease for cooking and yes! Scrambled eggs, I think they that's called cooking them "dirty" in some areas, where the eggs go right in after the bacon or ham. No arteries are safe here, clearly but a little bit goes a long way. It would seem a new administration is underway, transitioning from the old to the new and now- grease can be saved! grease can be saved!!! Where in the past the dirty water was tossed out bringing both risk and danger to the innocent babes who could thoughtlessly be thrown into the gehenna where hair colorations and all manner of demonic concoctions gurgle up from the deep we see that grease - cam be saved! It makes so much sense - "the fatted calf"....that fat's got to be good for something after all that fattening up! and it's the flavor!! From the grease comes the flavor. Let the marbling roll...!

"Don't toss out the bacon with the grease". You heard it here first, folks, submitted for your consideration and use. I herewith donate all profits and reward that is sure to flow like the rivers of the muddy Mississippi from this to the future construction of the Pork Memorial Cafeteria where pork products of all kinds can not only be seen and admired but consumed as they were meant to be. (minus my expenses of course, time X materials, say 15 per cent of any money's realized or gained both here and now and in the future and then to be transferred quarterly to the SocksWasHereAndRockedTheBoat Trust). (and use of the copyright symbol crediting me, socks, as the originator of the phase so that there need be no confusion or mistake, it's only fair). Other than that - it's yours! Thank you.

Nope, not a research alumnae, just a general pain in the butt like everyone else. One thing you're going to find out (or may know( is the Way has about the same kind of membership as any church - people are there for all kinds of reasons. They're participants because they have family or professional ties, like some of the message and activities but not others, believe some things that are taught and not others. Generally go along with the flow to get from it and contribute what they want to contribute. They may like it where they live now but if they moved might find the way it's run locally is much different than what they were used to and will find it less likable for all of the same kinds of reasons. Or more likable and will be more involved. Sure there's a general belief in certain things that are the same but there's a lot of differences too. Some may in fact not even "be" Christian and have no real investment in the beliefs but feel it's better than other things. You hear that a lot in the Way circles - "it's the best I've found here and if I find something better I'll go for it!" That's not really saying much is it? Hone shouldn't be something we switch based on how good the food is or how nice the yard is kept and we switch families if we like someone else's furniture better. What is our home and what is our life based on, is the question. So you'll see people who were in The Way, got the cap, the t-shirt, the WOW pin, whatever but who didn't really get much out of it or got screwed in the process. Being in the Way can be tough for some people because of the normal social and religious peer pressures. Some people end up kind of "stuck" in the Way and associate their faith with having to have it. Once they get a change they explore other things. Now - you're right though - if you have had a personal investment and relationship with God and Jesus Christ and certainly the Bible and other writings that have helped you in that relationship - the church affiliation shouldn't make a difference. But in real time on the ground it does for people for many reasons, some of which I've written here. We know the same bible verses so I don't always go in for batting those back and forth. I shoot one, someone else another back and we all make our cases. It's my go-to book, yes. But I try to promote thought, thinking and consideration. (that's in the Bible too). Where a person considers their life, the stuff of this life and processes it and looks at it. Therein lies the biscuit for me, the rest is all butter and honey. And I like butter and honey too, on a good flaky biscuit. Yeah - biscuits, bathwater. Bad mix. What can I say?