socks

If it's heartfelt, sure. What a person offers to God is their business and I always respect effort. The quality of the heart can be full and pure while the music well, if it's meaningful to the person making it. You'd have to ask God how He feels about it, I'm just speaking for what I see and the development in my lifetime, albeit short, since the 50's when I started learning hymns and old folk songs, through to today. The trend in "gospel" music has always been very diverse and What I resist is pigeon holing congregational "P and W" into a single style or methodology that doesn't in fact allow for freedom of expression across the range of interest and need in a congregation of both mature and new participants. After awhile yes, it is "stale". It can be well meant, may be following a specific purpose be it outreach, edification or just fun (which is a good thing too) however a diversified community of people will respond to different things.When the diet becomes the same thump-thump-thump and one chorus after another of the same thing you're going to lose some of that. Not in a single instance or a single occasion but over time it does happen. I've seen this in several congregations over the least 15 years or so - great people, can't fault the pastoring or leadership vision as having bad intent. It is a learning curve and I see part of our learning curve in Christian ministry as learning together and listening to the voice of God in each person as each person contributes those things at those times that are on their hearts. Healthy congregations and communities of Christians change, ebb and flow and grow as they follow the spirit of God at work in each person and collectively as a body. That piece of "the body" works within the context of the greater body world wide - what one person in one place brings forth can work within that global community to the edification of the whole and in ways no one individual can know or perhaps even needs to know. Rather, that we all living our "treasure" in these earthen vessels have the luxury if you will of knowing that there is one God, one spirit and one Lord, living and working in all. I can appreciate the same rock music week after week having a purpose. I don't have to listen to it or like it, although I can appreciate the intent and the effort. And it's funny because while I enjoy rock as much as many other forms of music and probably am more versed in the history of modern pop than other forms I actually do enjoy the repetition of it, in lyric or music as that's one of the components of a well crafted piece of pop music. "Sing of Your Great Love" of Hillsongs is a great example - one word "Holy" and one line "Holy is the Lord" is so powerful in that song. The first time I heard it was on a tape I was given, on a long drive up Northern California coast alone one evening and it grabbed me so much and so hard I had to pull over. I've checking out Sidewalk Prophets who have some really nice stuff. No one's breaking new ground in these categories and they're definitely hitting the mark - my mark anyway, and I know I'm not alone. So - yeah - I think there's a lot of room for a lot of stuff.

I was reading some things on Creflo Dollar's site, he's a strong proponent of these "laws". "that is why fear is a magnet for the things of which you are afraid. When you operate in fear, the law of sin and death goes into motion to bring about the very object of your fear. Christians need to take steps to eliminate doubt and fear from their lives. I want to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord living under the blessings of the law of life in Christ Jesus. Examine yourself. Of what are you afraid? What worries and anxieties consistently occupy your thoughts?" ----------------------- He explains this thusly: In fact, any principle in the Bible which involves faith and its ability to bring good things to your life also will apply to fear and its power to bring destruction to your life. For example, we are told in Romans 10:10: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Just as heart-belief and mouth-confession of God's Word brings about the blessings of salvation, when you have fear in your heart and speak it out loud with your mouth, it brings about destruction. ------------------------ I find it fascinating that he identifies what we believe in the heart and say with our mouth of "God's Word" is what brings about the "blessings" of salvation. I will say this - I don't like heights. I can get up maybe somewhere between a 1 and 2 story but edges and ledges - don't dig 'em. I've been "afraid" of heights as long as I can remember. Get all sweaty palmed. Properly prepared I can navigate them but I would say quite honestly and without eguivocatin' that while I can't think of too many things I'm "afraid of" - heights would come pretty close to that. I've said it many times, thought about it at others and definitely have it in my list of things not to do if I don't have to. Going on 50 plus years. I've yet to see a height come out and grab me, hoist me up, and knock me over and down. It may happen yet but just hasn't happened so far.

The "negative" side of the chart - the "fear is believing" - is misleading, to say the least As part of the process in another in PFAL, same. I've read that kind of thing a 1,000 times over the years in many places. "....what I have greatly feared is come upon me.....".............Job's the poster child and the title could be "This could be you!" Fear as a root cause of unbelief in anything is a very weird idea. ie.......I'm afraid of (it) whatever, so I don't believe it. That doesn't really work consistently You may choose to not believe it but actually you might be more choosing to not accept or act on something you actually do believe but choose to ignore or avoid because you're - afraid ot it. "I'm afraid I'll lose my job". worry worry worry worry. The fear and the worry aren't actually going to be the cause of losing your job. Not acting on that fear appropriately is what could certainly cause you to have no job if you lose it. Losing it could reflect that you're such a worry wart your work suffers. Again - the work quality, not the worry. Stopping the fear may or may not happen. If it's a legitimate concern it's going to be more than reciting "God will provide" and memorizing bible verses to that effect. That God does provide is a reality that's important to reinforce and fear and worry can be worked with in light of that. But I think it would be correct to say that whether a person worries and fears over a bad outcome is not as important as how they respond to that worry and fear - basically keeping on a clear track or the kinds of outcomes they do want. Fear is never what we "want", or the thing we fear - we fear it, we don't want it so how could we bring it on ourselves? If we reject something we fear and avoid it - ? As part of a "law" it can't be stated as PFAL does - "believing in reverse".

Chorus repetition - Thomas, excellent point. And yeah, I get the pep rally / alma mater comparison. There is a meditative quality to the use of P and W music, I think newlife, that's an interesting observation. In other discussions I've found the younger set is mostly interested in the pop/rock stuff and artists involved in that. That's a generalization of course ,not all but a lot of the come and going musical involvement is typical band configuration pausseone and trombone, brass and reed instruments would be a welcome addition in most cases I think! Budget and availability probably have an affect. You may find some need out there for the arranging and broader instrumentation and might be welcome in some places. :) I'm a guitarist and sometime bass player - always love taking a bass call if it comes in - so that's an easy fit in pop music but expanding music and repertoire is how I learn. I'm a confessed fan of the pop form but look for craft and some degree of originality, if there is such a thing (yet another topic I guess). The P and W platform is getting stale IMO and may go through change soon one would hope. Again - I found in other discussions about musicians, writers that so much of music is missed by "those kids" today. Discussions about whether Amy Grant's "really" a Christian post-divorce and her "secular" career, what Darlene Zschech wears, what Lincoln Brewster's using for effects these days. No interest in Larry Carlton, Michael Macdonald or any of the other individuals and their music that work outside the P and W and Christian market. Robben Ford? who's he? It's a chance to help expand horizons and thought yes but I also found that pastoral oversight can tend to put attention on the obvious and not dig deeper to see what's going on and why and learn from it. Another topic too, I guess. Still, there is a lot of variety coming out in the last few years and there seems to be a transition of that into churches slowly but sure. Sounds like quite a mix you've got there there, Thomas! Cool stuff.

Hey Ted! You'd dig the guys at this church - they're play-ahs. (with the Tommy Castro Band here) covers their keyboards sometimes for them, and he's just the greatest guy, coolest head and can really really play. He worked with Skip at the yearly Merle Saunders Birthday bash's, Carlene Carter's band on the road and a local Petty cover band plus lots of other stuff. Very versatile. Yeah this pastor's a good guy. But if the music's not mixed up a little, it's too boring, too much of the same thing. And despite all those years in J.N. - well, some things never change I guess. I've never been one for a lot of "come on everybody - clap your hands and let's praise the Lord!" and if they don't something must be wrong. Nothing's wrong - clap if you want to, don't if you don't. I dunno - but some people do like it and there are songs where it all comes together. It's okay but clearly - if you really wanted to get down with it you have to pull the plug and use all the tools you've got. I'm not sure if Sunday morning is the time for that. But then I remember the "Church of the Ephesians" in Berkeley years ago - Edwin Hawkins old stomping grounds. THAT was worth the trip, any time of the day! Speaking of wreaking havoc on ol' gospel hymns, the best versions I remember of some of your stuff was in the BRC Basement our first year back there. Fun stuff. I remember I found an old Supro tube amp, little 10 watt-er, in the barn and Unc-a Harry said take it - think it was one of their original "P.A" amps. I found another one of them, same model, years ago at a Flea Market. Blew up. But I remember that had some funky tone turned up all the way. I still keep my eye out for them if I ever run across another one I'm going to scarf it up.

The modern Praise and Worship music - there's a lot of it I like. I lot of it is basic pop music, heard one, you've heard a dozen just like it. I was involved in a Christian music forum for a year or so and found that many of the songs being written are really just turns of the same old phrase....."C - G - A minor F.........throw in a chorus of C - Bb - F C - D - F9 and repeat - different keys but kinda same. That particular verse progression has been used incessantly in pop music the last 10 years or so - I guess because it always works. But it's been done, to say the least. Lyrics? Dunno - depends. A lot of it seems over wrought hand wringing stuff but again - I'm more or less okay with a lot of it. Can't think of anything in particular - Hillsongs always does good stuff, Lincoln Brewster's a local Cali guy that does nice stuff. It's interesting though, Christian P and W has definitely developed into a market slice. The church we go to sometimes has some great musicians and they do good stuff, some standard P and W kinda things and others that are more original sounding. Jack Blades (Night Ranger and other stuff) is a local and he's done some tunes, he's written some very heart felt Christian music that I like that's he's done. The band leader's a very good musician as are the others, pianist, organist, bass player - real good bass players. One of their organists has become a friend and we got him into NAMM last year on my company card One of the guys from the CC&R reformed band subs in, good guy and killer guitarist. They often sub in for each other and the lineup moves around from week to week. They're largely local working musicians and do this stuff as a gig, and they're just good people all around. But - Clayjay - I may actually feel a little like you - when we first began going I liked the music, electric pop and rock stuff, some older sounding standards done well but mostly rock. But after a few services - I had to ask "what if someone doesn't like rock?" Because that's largely what they play. These guys can play some serious stuff - the music at the services is the P and W style pop/rock, with some variations thrown in. I agree- buzz the pastor on this and let your "requests be made known". I've written the pastor at this one and passed on my thoughts several times. He's definitely looking to do a more modern colloquial sound in the music but leaves most of that up to the people that play and sing. He has tried some other types of music in certain services. There's a general trend they're following - that's fine. I don't really go for the music to be honest but I do appreciate what they've done. It's not easy to do anything, whatever it is.

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"nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message." Well, let's get down to that for a mo'. John has liberally extended his gift of gab to ex-Wayfers over the years, giving them a shot at hearing or reading his realizations and conclusions because he feels an obligation to them - and I get that. Same with me - who am I to deny you the latest and greatest illuminations that I, socks, have come to? You guys always deserve the early beta, that's just how much I love y'all. You're welcome. Here's some more. The elephant in the room of PFAL Believing that JAL refers to indirectly but obviously if you're a PFAL grad is the FEAR/NEGATIVE believing doctrine - "you know what killed that little boy - it was the FEAR in the LIFE of the HEART of that mother!"..... He refers to that using the superficial example of dogs and bites - obviously a ridiculous reference that has nothing to do with the example in PFAL of "negative believing" where it's taught that a child dies due to the fear of the parent. That's got some sticky to it when you hear it and needs to be addressed in detail and scripturally. Barking dogs - who gives a crap? You can't really dance around the major points of PFAL and not pay the band. Anyone who knows the material and the concepts is going to catch what you're referring to. "The law of attraction" isn't the same as PFAL and the "law of believing". There's similarities but they're not apples and apples IMO. JAL's doing a powder puff with this. The media drunk couch potatoes that have glommed onto the latest feel-good self-help craze wrapped in Christian parchment or whatever, may be challenged by what he's saying but all I can think is - yeah. So what? Anything I can really chew on? No? Thanks anyway. I can only assume that there's an audience for this that will hoot and holler for more but c'mon - really? Is this substance? Really? What next? - "Kicking babies is WRONG! and we're just not going to let it go on without TAKING A STAND!" C'maaaawn.

Thank you Leafy One! It sounds like you've hit on the crux of Christianity - if it isn't Christ - what is it then? :) Right? Without a personal, real understanding of what Jesus Christ is to you it may be nothing more than a mental discipline, a set of mechanics that in and of themselves are good but that don't bring us to any one, single point of reality. And reality is where it's at. Thanks!

"it has been all over the map.......Personal Prophecy, a God with limited foreknowledge, Momentus".... Self-initiated and self-perpetuating chaos - I really feel for those who ride this roller coaster. There seems to be a core group of the ex-Wayfer gang that always manages to bob up to the top after their newest fad fades and wreaks whatever havoc it does. Momentus is a perfect example of that - the founders and perpe-traitors of that mind-glue are still smiling proudly, having "moved on". Same with Personal Prophecy, etc. etc. Tape and gum something together, push it, promote it, make a buck or three on it, then jump clear in time to avoid getting too messed up in the inevitable train wreck Scurry away, look for the next thing. Stepping through the piles of debris of distrust and broken relationships must be tough but I guess you get good at it after the first few times.

Illustriously illuminating discussion! I'm sure everyone is learning. A lot. I know I am. In fact, I've been negligent in not having given an opportunity for everyone to share of their abundance of which it seems we have so much! Clearly there is a need to be relieved of the burden of appearing ostentatious in our 'bundance! Briefly now so as not to disturb the flow, the plate passes....yes, let me start. There. and now each in their turn. Yes. And the card reader is working and ready so as to make it as easy as possible for everyone, yes - you're welcome.,,..keep swiping, keep swiping. Yes. Good. There! Thank you, much better. Remember to pick up the Tax form 511.A.112 before you leave and for today only - Easter Bunny BobbleHeads! (we over ordered and need to move these out so take two!) I like the "incorruptible" versage, TonyZ. It's a kind of negative on a positive word idea thing - "not perishable". "i think they must have given me enough of the word for me to believe it" How's that go in Matthew - keep knocking and the door will be opened? (socks standard abridged revised authorized version)

T Zam! You've actually touched on a fundamental aspect to "being" a Christian I've been chatting with a friend about, kicking some stuff around. There's a very fundamental understanding of that verse in Peter you're referring to that's pretty cool and if you'll allow I'll set it out here... Broadly - in the Bible the new birth/born again message is referred to in two ways and 1 Peter 1:23 hits them both....that is that a person is "born OF" God, and that birth or birthing as I've seen it termed, comes BY the Word of God or to us through the Word of God. This isn't a matter of preposition-twisting or trying to give a gnat a black eye with a hammer. It appears to be a very basic and consistent reference in the N. T. writings and it's as much common sense as anything I think. Born OF God is where the incorruptible part comes in - OF the spirit, of God. That comes from, by, through - by means of - the Word of God, logos, the expressions of God that open this up to us. Jesus Christ is to as "the Logos", the living logos, "the way the truth and the life". Logos could be said to represent the total "will" or "word" of God. 1 Peter is often cross referenced to Romans 10: 9 and 10, and there this idea is set in the preceding verse 8, the "word" is near or ready, and is the "word" of faith that is preached. "Word" there is the greek "rhema" which is a very general word for spoken words, stuff that's actually said. Where logos often implies reason, thought, a will, intent, purpose, rhemas is more actual communication. When Jesus referred to the "words that proceed out of the mouth of God" it's the simple basic rhemas and would be similar to a spoken message. Jesus said he spoke "words" of life. So in Romans 8 the means of the message is referred to, and in 9 and 10 the mouth, confession, believe, heart refers to the whole human belief and declaration and not the ol' one-time "I believe" kind of "getting saved" "word" formula. Jesus as the "logos" means He's a/the living expression of God's intent and purpose. There's also the message spoken or written that comes from Jesus Christ who declares "the Father", openly revealing God to us. Again, I have to get past the nit picky word-word-word-theword thing and look at it in a simpler and more holistic way to see how simple it is. Born again OF God and that coming BY the Word. If I get hung up on logos/rhemas and try to suss those words out too tight in each usage though it can get tweezey real fast but generally it's good to understand that "logos" has that implication of reason and purpose and "rhemas" has the meaning of actual expression. They're not used exclusively that way in the Bible from what I've seen but given their external use it should be considered when trying to understand better what the Bible's saying. (and as 1 Peter 5:12 refers to the writing being done with the help of another Silas/Silvanus, 1 Peter as other books in the N. T. likely have a wide range of language skills used in the writings which would have an impact on the choice of words. Inspired by God, yes I believe that, but then as now words have to be chosen to communicate the message, whatever it is). Anyhoo it's a good meditation, to "think on these things".

While VPW, his non-doctored status and PFAL can be part of the discussion, that dime's been spent a lot. Me, I'm off that dime, but it's interesting that this topic is coming back to that. I guess no thread is complete without it. Box - checked! Any discussion on what the bible says, what we believe, what our ongoing learning and experience is and has been is going to be valid, but it's extremely limiting IMO to take a reference to it's similarity to something VPW or PFAL said or taught and attempt to unravel it's influence, waysider. I get that's an exercise you find valuable nd this is in the "About the Way" forum, so no harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned but TonyZ may not see his observations as some kind of psychological VPW-coffee stain. I find it really odd that you'd see it that way but if that's the way you see it, I'll accept it. It's certainly a legitimate question you've asked. Another question is that once it's been answered, can the answer be accepted, if it's understood? What do you think? I've been having a great ongoing discussion with someone over the last few weeks on some related topics to this thread, "saved", "born again" amongst them. It's been interesting as we've covered some similar background experience that includes Roman Catholic doctrine on those two topics, some history and other stuff. It's kind of cool as we both have had very different experience in how we were taught as RC's, with some similarities as you might expect. Our understanding of who and what we are as Christians today has been pretty consistent though, with some very basic biblical foundations that are completely similar. It's illuminating. And the poll responses keep on coming! Thanks to all!

I welcome your input here, geisha! IMO our current views and understandings of Christianity and Jesus Christ specifically are a major aspect of what "About the Way" is about and not specifically a "doctrinal" issue of discussion, although that should be the basis for a lot of what's discussed. For many of us it appears it's not simply that we were in the Way, left the Way and now consider the entire Christian faith a moot point and no longer valid for us. I hope I've communicated that I wasn't interested initially in establishing a majority view, either way. Yes or no means just that. For those of us who answer yes or wish to discuss it in other terms in more detail - I think that reflects strongly on our experiences both before and after involvement with the Way, while also including that. It's been good to read what's being offered. For those of us who would say simply no - that means something too. I'm happy to read what's been put here in light of whatever one's response is. I appreciate what you've posted, as others geisha. You honestly challenged my overly generalized statement. Can't ask for more than that. I know it's not going to be the time and place for everyone to read or contribute, and I appreciate the patience and consideration of those who might have very drastically differing opinions or interest in tempering the content to the extent that this kind of discussion can continue. Or not, as it goes. I think it speaks to the GS crowd, who appear to be much more thoughtful and caring than they might be given credit for. That includes you excadeetas! Thank you to all.

It's not easy. http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/expungement/expungement-state-info.html

The term "psychological trauma" will make some roll their eyes I'm sure (not directed at you Broken Arrow)- at least certain associations I'm thinking of. It does sound really victim-mentality. Oh, the mental stress, or the emotional abuse. Boo hoo hoo. . The "saddle back up and get on that horse son!" crowd won't like it. But if life has it's way and it's day everyone will take it between the eyes once or twice where it knocks 'em down and holds 'em down - hard. At those points that horse won't look so inviting. " A spade has to be called a spade." I put it - embrace the horror, look it clearly in the face. Celebrate the next breath and start on the next one. It's really one of those - can't get there without getting there kind of things for me. Warts and all, we'll live on if we persist. There's always the other side of the coin where people are concerned - example: a few years ago I had the usall yearly performance evaluation thing. I'd rated myself pretty good but there some bumps in the year. I represented myself well I thought. My boss differed, he rated me a notch down overall. When we talked it through he was clearly uncomfortable, he knew I'd tried and done very well in some stuff but just felt a couple things fell through the cracks. I thought about it for about 30 seconds from his viewpoint and instead of arguing over it just said "You're right. I could have done better with those things". He let out a sigh,and practically got teary eyed. He told me how difficult it was for him to do this kind of thing - which we discussed as it actually affected how he communicated throughout the year. I gave him my personal mantra for bad news - "embrace the horror". When it's bad, lay it on me then. I may argue, may disagree but I can take bad news better than late news. I like the hit of reality when it's happening, not cold. Adjustments can be made then, not in hindsight. So you learn. Different people have different ways of dealing with things, even when they apply the same ideas and ideals, I've found. "Trauma" occurs in different ways too. I've found building a better future a step at a time, thoughtfully, allows for a firmer foundation to build. Communication is a big part of it.

No problemo mstar. Thanks for the post! I appreciate all the input and thought here. Thanks again.

Innnneresting Twinky. I do support that idea and think we in the United States would benefit from finding ways to apply it. I think there are many circumstances that it would work and would be beneficial for everyone.

sudo, I did some further fiddling with the numbers, and although I hesitate to put much cred' in this we do have the sampling qualified here as being those who have had or currently have some association with The Way, loosely defined as participating members - If the total yes/no = 44 (currently) and the no's = 8 (currently) it's at 5.5 % - If the total responses = 47 and the no's = 8 it's at around 5.9 %, rounded up. wikipedia has some related information, broken out: HERE I think by these responses here the percentages are actually lower then these. (although wiki quote a wide range in their numbers throughout the entire article)

cman - a number of religious affliliations and beliefs are listed as part of this survey, from the "Religion in America" report. (not sure of the validity of this data but it's out there at any rate). adherents.com has quite a bit of statistical information, to say the least. Lots of religious beliefs out there, and a lot that make the lists every time it seems. There's a lot of data there but I have never felt completely comfortable with a lot of statistics because I can't validate how they're gathered and the sampling that's used. Surveys can be time consuming and expensive and especially today there's a level of paranoia about answering questions that will go on record somewhere (Facebook notwithstanding). Still, like the old joke about credit card "security" that observes we can't be that concerned if we'll give our credit card to a total stranger in a restaurant and let them take it for 10 minutes - I guess we choose what and where we trust our information...but in most cases it can be difficult.if not a little loosey goosey. I'd been thinking about this survey for a long time and I had several versions, couplea real spanky ones that were so big they would have formed 2 or 3 surveys to cover all the ground the way that I, socks, had ingeniously worked them out. It looked stupid though on paper, to be honest. Even I wouldn't have participated after putting it up. Finally though it seemed that on face value the simplest way to get a simple answer would be to ask a simple question that could be answered yes or no, and then allow for all of the other possiblities in a 3rd choice. Thanks again folks! Be sure to pick up your "I Was Surveyed And I Didn't Even Get A T-Shirt" virtual arm band at the table!

Hi WG! Thanks. I don't believe it's closed, I just jumped the gun and tallied up the count but as far as I know you can still use it. Feel free! And thanks for your post...... " I believe that if individuals who call themselves by His Name will seek Him diligently and have a personal relationship with Him their lives will change in ways they never dreamed of. " :) Interesting point sudo. On the one hand it's not a surprise but on another it is. This being a very general kind of poll the numbers won't yield a specific set of hmm, postulates. But it's an interesting result. I was curious how such a poll would render out. On face value the numbers speak for themselves. This poll is pretty loose and isn't designed to try and sort out everything obviously. (but anyone's welcome to put the dial to Sort if that's what's on their mind, no problem.) I've editorialized a little (!) in my posts to voice my own opinion. To focus briefly on geisha's comments there is still the question - what is it to be a Christian? In other words, can a faith that identifies so specifically with two things - God and Jesus Christ - be everything or anything that a person wants it to be and when we have some source material (the Bible) that most would identify as essential? (and that's a whole 'nother topic here I know). Just thinkin' out loud. johniam, that's about what I was thinkin' for what it's worth. Not everyone was up to what Jesus taught and instructed in the gospels, that's clear. Within the framework of His day and time however people weren't excluded or given the cheap seats arbitrarily. Even non-Jewish Gentiles were able to approach Him and have access when they had recognition, though limited, of who He was and who they were. All mankind needed Jesus Christ and He was present for all who would come to Him.

Then I suggest you go to an ex- Scientology site and work on getting a similar question posted using those questions.

Thanks for the link, sudo! For the purpose of the poll I spread as wide a blanket as possible, geisha. I'm not defining what a Christian is, just asking the individual reading the question to respond yes, no or if neither of those fits snug enough a 3rd choice - which could also just mean someone doesn't want to answer here and now whether or not there answer would be yes, no or something else. For the purpose of this li'l survey - yes, no or lemme alone. Is there more to it than that? There would have to be but I was just interested in how those on GS that participated might choose. It's definitely open here to discussion and thoughts as to what that means for anyone who wants to do that. - The survey's simmering down - looks like Yes - 34 No - 7 Prefer not to answer - 2 Total - 43. If anyone hasn't voted, please do! Thanks to everyone who has!

Thank T'omas! YMMV - always looks like the Roman numeral for Yahweh Or the antonym for "yummy". There was a character in the Superman comics years ago - "Mr. Mxyzptlk" if I remember right. Forget what he was all about, one of those inter-dimensional characters. I remember it because I always pronounced it while reading as "Mix - yez - pittle - lik"....yeah, I know. No excuse for what my brain retains. But YMMV makes me think of that character and a no vowel renderng of some word like "Yo Mi Ma Ahv". Ok. Hi hamp! Thanks for participating! Christianity is such a funny strange religion as practiced by so many throughout history - here a guy says He's come to draw all near, challenges exclusivity both culturally and socially, champions for the weak and sick who pretty much get screwed coming and going, respects children, women, talks to tax collectors for God's sake and even gives the wealthy a break - basically runs a shop that caters to anyone anytime.....and then ends up with followers who spend most of their time figuring out ways to exclude anyone they can lest I dunno, someone get a seat at the Heavenly Banquet that isn't dressed properly. It's weird that what is said to be the most powerful message to come down the pike since "Hey look at this! - round things roll!" gets turned into what amounts to a square hula hoop. Thanks to everyone who has, for participating and to everyone who hasn't there's still time! Click that bad boy!