socks

Thanks JB. That ....cancer is "a" devil spirit is an idea that would seem to be found in the N.T. gospels...... is probably supportable but only in a very general way, IMO. It's something of a theological supposition, more or less. If a person were looking at specific records and taking a very literal approach I don't think we see that in the gospels or other N. T. writings that are in the canon. From that angle I'd end up saying "it's possible". What that means is what I gave a great deal of thought to - for what that's worth. It really illustrates that if that is indeed the case then we have a view into how the "spiritual" realm works that presents more questions, questions that aren't answered in the A. C. material. IMO, anyway. There's people that probably still believe that, lock/stock and barrel, from the A. C. but if sorted out scripturally or logically we end up with something that is as much a medical concern as it is a "spiritual" one. Dunno. Fish hook? I doubt it.

For what it's worth now, I have no idea what the cause of VPW's death was, I've understood it to be cancer or cancer related, based on the death certificate and other information I've heard. As many of us know and many more will as time passes, death is one of the most difficult and revealing events, if I can call it that with all due respect, that we experience in life. It can be a time of confusion and intense emotions. Understandably. What should have been an orderly but difficult time became masked in misinformation, lack of information and an apparent inability to cope with all of it. It showed a lot - you'd think that in the end barriers would come down, hearts would open and communication - though it be hard - would flow. But no, quite the opposite. At that end the heads of the Way struggled and floundered as bad as - worse really - than anyone anywhere would or could. It was like a slow but growing silent avalanche come crashing down around. And then - the pomp and ceremony that accompanied "moving forward". But that avalanche wasn't settled, just paused. Cancer - a point of definition: cancer and "possession" weren't taught as synonymous. Cancer was considered caused by a "devil spirit" as it was considered to have "life of it's own" and all life, in Way doctrine, is spirit of some kind, though not all life would be "pneuma hagion/eternal life" spirit. Possession is a state of the mind, per the teaching, caused by a previous or existing disposition towards a mental weakness or consistent and continual behavior that would produce and promote an environment conducive to a specific kind of devil spirit. Factor in "believing" and the mix could, but not always or with a reliable expectation, produce an area of a person's "mind" that would/could slip into external suggestion and control, ie "possessed", or directed be it subtly or not so. Cancer was taught to follow a similar physical route, where the mix of one's believing, lifestyle, habits and possibly a physical disposition or state could present the same kind of favorable environment for a "daimon" - but the "spirit" taking root and proliferating was physical and not inherently in or of the mind. But - and this is where the whole thing continues to roil and turn - "believing" in deliverance through Jesus Christ would supercede all. As a Christian I would place my faith in That, knowing that my time is in God's hands and this life will go as it will, and as it does for everyone. That's where, in the end, it all comes down to - no one will "believe" beyond the natural death of the body, and no one has. Jesus Christ's resurrection was wholly in God's domain and no human causes were involved and no one not even His closest followers waited expectantly for that to occur, they thought He was dead. And He was. Everyone dies - how we get there may differ but it is what it is, for want of a better phrase regardless of what and how we believe, and other intervention or events not withstanding.

Hmmm, yeah j iam. Donnie was a good man. I met him the first year he took PFAL, going through Wichita. "Good kid" then, we were all youngsters. The "Jesus Freak" movement wasn't started post-PFAL, I know you know that so I"m not sure what you mean, maybe you could elaborate a bit. As to the beliefs, the J Freak "movement" as it's called wasn't close to or about the first 4 sessions worth of material of PFAL at all - again, you must know that regardless of what Donnie said or didn't. There's really no connection between the two, although many of the people of that era crossed paths, and long hair and flowers in their hair notwithstanding. "Staying put" is a relative term. Jim and Steve's story isn't one that is as clear cut as people make it out to be today. (Jim "came back" later but that was a mistake - one he accepted as a necessity at the time for a variety of reasons but it ended badly. We sat up late one night soon after he moved back there and got caught up and I was really glad to see him and hopeful for what his involvement could mean for both he and VPW but even then I wasn't sure it was the right thing - and I was fully engaged in the Way at the time, in the Way Corps. I remember the wif' and I thinking well - we'll have to see.) Do you know anything about or have any idea of what Steve's doing today, what he believes, or how he's continued to pursue his own faith and life, with his wife over these many years? Or what their idea of ministry is, and what their contributions are? He's not hard to find if you really want to know. As to the Way and what they did/didn't do - I really don't have an issue with the efforts the Way expended - it was a specific kind of effort for a specific kind of thing. Publicly many people lipped about respecting the efforts of others but if you know the history of the Way Inc. from New Knoxville on you know that there was never an organized, led effort other than the research parts, teaching the bible and forming the fellowship network, with an assortment of services in and around that. Stuff started and was done but nothing "stuck", no clear mandates were established to develop a track history of effort that could be identified now, years later. A few exceptions - Rock of Ages, the WOW program, Way Productions might be a few efforts that started that had a larger service goal to people but that changed over the years. And Craig didn't have the vision or leadership to accomplish much beyond doing what he already knew. All the fluff he came up with in the 90's - not much there really. It speaks for itself. Charging not an issue? Don't get me started. It's probably the one, deep topic that informs the entire organization from the get - go.

Kit, I call it "the impulse to do good" and the spirit of God "working and willing" in a person. The will, the impulse, the responsiveness to extend oneself to another. I like your examples. In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works". "Won't get you saved!" goes the line. They need to grow up and stop thinking of themselves and what they get out of others "believing". Salvation and "works" - I get that. That's kind of Christianity 101 IMO. "Not by works, by faith" in Jesus Christ". Doesn't mean the natural impulse of those saved shouldn't be - wouldn't be - to then do "good work". In fact, the Bible speaks to that quite a bit. In further fact the case is made that it's expected that once saved, living by God's grace and fully vested in the Kingdom of God that one has the wherewithal with which to do some real good towards others so we be good to everyone, and yeah, especially swell to others of the Faith. I see it as God wants to do good stuff for everyone and He will. Whether we want to sit on our butts and watch from the sidelines and judge whether the plays are by the rule book or not is up to us. Christians get in the game, get dirty and crack open a cold one at the end of the day. Let someone else keep score. It's too much of a pain in the as s to sort out who gets what. Err on the side of expansive opportunity ("for God so loved the world that He gave") and there's bound to be some good to come out of it. To note: Given how the Way's growth has all but ground to a halt and they can't seem to keep people around to save their life one could probably model a growth plan from their example by simply not doing what they do and doing anything else. So if they say "don't give to a good cause" you could start investing in Red Cross tomorrow and be better off. I mean honestly, they could probably get more people to "take the class" by getting dolphins to juggle doughnuts in the desert during a hail storm than anything they're doing.

One of my top 10-deserted-on-an-island-with-my-only-love-we're-gonna-need-music favorite songs, done by the same guy. Music to drift into the silence to.... <br><br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TQagK7mA0Aw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<br><br> I do - yeah, Fellwell and Rabidson, earning their pay. <br><br> A succinct response HERE, and well said by whoever it was. <br> Another one of many interpretations of Hendrix's entry into the commercial field, and a nice one: <br><br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i7G0CPmAqrY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Love the smell of oxides in the morning....is it tomorrow? or just the end of time? <br> <br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Nj5eJnWyKEA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Didn't Jesus himself select a physician, Luke, as one of his disciples? Not that we know of WordWolf. Luke appears later in Acts, with Paul. The "12" specifically were fishermen, a tax collector, a "zealot", other stuff, not sure. One might have been a Dr. certainly could have been. Your post reminded me of Mark 2:17 - On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." I think we all agree that no one wants to be sick. Sick people need help. The words of Jesus say - help is on the way, help is here. Lots of things will contribute to health but the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ isn't about busy work or startng at trees on a sunny day or taking molasses. I doubt from reading the gospels that He'd have a problem with any of that - sick people need a doctor. Find one. Do things that will help. Rub honey on your head. Whatever. TWI promoted a lot of warm and fuzzy stuff, lots of bang-on-the-head-stuff too. There's nothing quite like having some self-righteous zealot weirding out on you when you're sick when what you need is help.

All the best in your endeavors!

Turn a hobby into a business. There's quite a few online articles on doing this and a lot say the same kinds of things. Something you do or can do well enough to sell, be it a product or a service. Find those with small businesses who need a part-time helper: photographers, caterers, painters, etc. Partner with someone who's already got something going and needs help, see where that can go. I've used craigslist from time to time here to market a side business I have - the UK has one and might be a free place to put the word out on whatever you choose, at no cost. ebay.com is good source for selling and reselling virtually anything. Cost to set up a paypal account is minimal and if you have an interest in specific kinds of thing that might generate some income. A good attribute to have and develop is self-confidence. Sounds like you have that. Apply it to your "resume' " and how you sell yourself - while there might be gaps - recognize the life's experience you have that gives you the ease of working well with a variety of kinds of people as well as allows you to not be intimidated by not knowing something. You have a willingness to learn. It can seem like the world's got plenty of those people already but you'd be surprised (maybe not) at how difficult it can be for businesses to find maturity + skills + experience. A willingness to learn and the level of maturity to maintain a professional attitude are valuable assets. :)

And so it went. Jbarrax, I've read your online work. Nicely done. Won't posit my position but I agree wholeheartedly that the Bible as a whole doesn't fall to pieces as they say, by looking at what were once called apparent contradictions but actually hop scotched around - let it speak for itself. Right or wrong it can't be what it is if I make it what I think it needs to be. I agree that many of the sections you cover are typically squeezed and juggled to be consistent with others, when they're not. Camping - often referred to as "well meaning" and "decent" but deluded. He clearly is not nice to those who choose to see him as a person of authority for rendering the Bible's teachings and building actions on them. Well meaning? I dunno - I think he's driven by unbridled ego and pride. Personal pride in one's work, in the things we appreciate - I get that. He's a jerk, to put it mildly. He pushes people so hard, insisting that he is right and others are wrong. So now he's wrong. What's his response going to be - this time? Communication technology has allowed for him to be a global story - without technology to expand his reach 99.99 % of those who know about him today wouldn't, buses and billboards notwithstanding. He's used it consistently. And he's got $ coming in to promote his swill, week after week. "Buyer beware" is still the order of the day. He's such a blow hard on the radio about not only this but anything else he thinks he knows that it will be interesting to hear his response, if any. But it's kind of like slowing down to see a train wreck, so I probably won't, it's too grim a reality - but still a lesson.

That may have been the plan, johniam. Giants won - Timmy Time ran the clock out at 9 full innings, looks like the Linc is back on track. The Beard stood guard but was not needed. Good game! One more to go - if the SF G's win, it'll be a sweep of the A's. The A's look ready for some pay back. Should be good. God's a good Sport so hey - maybe Camping should have checked the game schedule. Just saying.... All's quiet on the western front.....

http://www.christian...now-what-50373/ Clearly, God is a sports fan, meaning of course Baseball, and having seen the rousing competition between the Oakland A's and the SF Giants last night has decided that this season needs to continue for at least one more game. If more, we will get to see the SF and Oakland series through. Time being such a moving target there's still time, so we'll have to see - oops! Game's on! Gotta go! (where'd socks go? he's not here anymore....!) Not to worry, remote in hand.... I'm sure Camping will want to reward his most faithful followers who have given all their earthly possessions away by having a Return of his own, namely returning and re supplying some $$$$$ and sense. (he may have to go to outside sources for the sense but it appears he's got plenty of dough, though) Cheers!

j-i-am wrote: "VP once said that love is the badge of Christianity right after saying that believing is the genus of Christianity. As basic as breathing. So it's going to be talked about a lot, but most of the talk I heard was people believing for stuff they NEEDED with prayer and action, not for pie in the sky stuff they had no experience in that their whim for the day desired. That reminds me of a cartoon." Well, not to ignore red drapes and the like, but I get what you're getting at, I think. Or as C. H. Spurgeon once wrote - the best way to defend a lion is to let him out of his cage. Let God do His work. I think we just have to accept that PFAL danced around this and when you dance, ya gotta pay the band as they say. Give the devil his due - he's a tricky boy. Matt. 5:44, 45 "...But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This message is pretty consistent throughout the gospels and N.T. writings. When God's love rains everything gets wet. "Shower the people you love with love" and even those we don't. There's plenty go go around. We will always struggle, trying to do this by our lonesome because it seems out of reach if not impossible. Even impractical and dangerous. The "ability" to do this doesn't come by a mental effort to do so - when we're abiding in the vine, we bring forth fruit, we bear it. Christ is the true vine and now all the branches ,grafted and otherwise, can have life through Him. Etc. Etc. Etc. The balance of it all, the achievement, the realization becomes a recognition of the goodness of God. There's no attraction, we can't bring God's love to ourselves like some bag of goodness we drag forward into our own laps and enjoy because we've created a place for it. Love supersedes and surpasses all of that and we're advised to be the same to others, good and bad, deserving and undeserving. And if God's love is at the center of all we're pretty much poking ourselves in the eye with a pencil trying to better see something that's right in front of us the whole time and that won't move an inch closer than it already is, by anything we do.

"Once I'm on campus the world changes. So what causes it?" Preparation, expectation, realization, memory. What you bring to an experience, what you think it's going to be, what it is, what you recall. I subscribe somewhat to the gestalt view and process of learning, and one of the ways I define "life" is learning, where we are either learning or using what we know. Viewed that way life is always a process of being and becoming what we are up to that point, what we are experiencing at that point and what we will be past that point. Gestalt is a holistic approach which all sounds very psychedelic but is basically summed up in the phrase "the whole is (or can be I would say) greater than the sum ot it's parts". The tendency of human perception is to "connect the dots" if you will, in order to store information for efficient recall and use. When we realize or recognize something at a given point in time for instance we may ask "what is this, and what does it mean?" We may also simply assume "I know what this is and what it means". To me this is all loosely related to "believing" if we understand that word to be fundamentally a state of awareness and acceptance as opposed to only being a deliberate process that we hmmm, step through. It can certainly be seen as a process as there's a process involved in achieving that state of awareness and acceptance but it doesn't always and may not need to always be a deliberate action on our part. Preparation, expectation, realization, recall - imagine 10 people with COMPLETELY different content for each of those words, with no commonalities. Compare that to 10 people with the "same" or very similar content to those 4 words. The experience at a given point - what will it be for an 11th person coming into that mix, in either scenario? Different? I would think so, especially considering that the 11th person is now part of the whole. The net result of it all is something that couldn't exist without each of the components that contribute to it.

He is missed for certain....makes me feel so small.....sometimes the past wafts by and you can smell it like the fragrance of the sun after a soft rain - times drifts away.... going, going, gone.......... <br> <br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fRPxJ5u4-00?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stayin' the course.... <br> <br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RjLRvFG8kcU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The Gangster of Love keepin' it right and tight, speaking to the truth ahead of his time and leading the way to a brave new world for the children of the future where all clocks are calibrated to Miller Time.... <br><br> Fly....casual.... <br> <br> <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ELcTJZLxhFU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hi - you wrote: "I was called to tell Martindale too start teaching that life. " So how did that go? What was his reaction and response? Curious as to how he responded to the details.

He he....well, that's real pur-dee, Ham! I'm counting the days, JB. as I assume there's going to be a lot of stuff laying around loose and being the community minded person I am, if I'm still here I'd hate to see any flat screen TV's (over 60 inches) and cars (classic Buick's ) and of course, guitars - (Les Pauls anyone?) go to waste or worse, fall into the wrong hands. If I'm gone, take what you want, all. But do make sure I'm really "gone" or it will be a short visit for you, gar-awn-teed. I started a thread on this somewhere around here. It's probabliy camping in Canaan's' land.

The LOB as we are acronyming it could have been taught as simply a decision as to what a person is going to believe in. In the PFAL material I boiled it down to that - the "law" is (and I've posited this enlightening obseravation before) nothing more than common sense. The emphasis in PFAL on "believing" however puts the emphasis in the wrong place (and I know all the same bible verses where someone believes or doesn't believe, and mustard seeds and mountains moving, etc. etc. etc.) It really matters where one places the emphasis those things - and once a person gets the believing/pistis/apetheia flow going in their head it can be made to pop up everywhere we look when in reality it's not an important piece of Christ's message in and of itself. In other words - of COURSE one has to believe, accept, trust, be confident in something - really, it's a duh idea. The issue is - what do you believe, trust, put confidence in or on. Back in '69, '70, '71 I remember there was a fair amount of mysticism buzz in the Way around the "pistis" topic (and I suppose one could say what ISN'T "mysticism" in the core message of Christianity) - but there was a fair amount of shine on the eastern/oriental/middle versus far east foundation of the history of Jewish and Judeo-Christian thought, probably as an outcome of his early exposure to Glenn Clark, the visit to India and other influences. Frankly I've always thought that VPW dropped more of that stuff then he kept, looking at later years. But really I agree with you johniam - with the caveat that PFAL and VPW straddled the fence on this early on and it's obvious that more than just a few people disagree on this. I've said this before too...he took 36 hours for PFAL - that's enough time to make the first session clear. If it's not, what's that say? He could have cleaned this up - he never did, never wanted to change PFAL, so that was that. I guess I just realized early on that there was no "power in believing" in and of itself.

So many people use the bible in ways it's not intended. While there would be numerical values that are relevant in the bible the question would be - is it within the bible to tell the exact time of something like "the rapture", loosely understood to be what Camping says it is. "Signs", indicators to specify exactly when that will be? That next step is clearly not one that the writers of the material in the bible either knew or were able to articulate clearly. If they had, they would have - or you'd figure they would have tried to. He goes a long way to ferret out this information as if it's a secret that needed to be uncovered. If it was that - then why didn't anyone including Jesus describe it that way? Nothing in what we read of the gospels or the epistles, in the accepted canon nor the apocryphal writings describe these events that way. There's no math noodling to indicate that when this and that happens, start counting and get to the date. The significance of the message of the return of Christ and these future events is that it will happen in "God's timetable" and mankind is to live and move forward in our times in preparation, NOT knowing. To that I'd add - is it even important to know THE date? And if so - why? If it's to be prepared, get 'er done and get 'er ready - we already know that. That message doesn't change. I'm sure he means well but his pre occupation with this topic is actually a distraction. I'm sure there are lots of things he could be doing besides this. It's his time. Let's just see what comes out of the river....

Hmmm....being from the Left Coast there was good representation of change in music in the 60's. The "Jesus Movement" is a touch point. I follow a track that it all reflected the changes in society. The way "folk" music developed into a commercial format that rolled out slowly in the 50's and 60's contributed. "Rock" music was always a flash point in religious circles. Cross pollination of Black and White gospel segments. "Country". I've heard so much music over the years. 1970 I went cross country for the first time and it was like dropping off the edge of the earth into a new world "out there". Technology was carrying music everywhere - radio, vinyl, magnetic tape and of course television and live performance. But going from music that's produced in it's own pipeline to performing in a location where everyone's saturation point is vastly different was eye opening. In California I'd already travelled day trips and over nighters through the state and knew diversity in a commercial vein but seeing the range across the country in a slice like that allowed me to learn a lot. (and yeah, we ran across Keaggy that year too and talked about the Sons if I recall, Phil's always been a very talented heart felt musician). Generally speakin' the popular format of "Christian" music as we see it today was very, very young. I'd heard some things by the late 60's but already it was moving out of the folk genre and into other styles. Black and White gospel were already there of course but very inward oriented, there was no commercial channel for it unless people left the one and went into "secular". Every year or two there'd be a break out hit - "The Singing Nun" or Norman Greenbaum (knew a guy locally who told me when that hit - hey! I know Norm' - he's Jewish! It was funny and he of course popularized an early recording using a "killswitch" technique - as a guitarist I didn't hear that much on the radio so although the song was hmm, not my thing as a musician or a Christian it caught my ear). Good Lord - there were the days when gospel groups would travel with a full rhythm section and possibly pickup other players along the way and depending on the church, use whatever was allowed. One - no drums! Drums = bad. So the drummer would have to hang out. Bass? Electric bad = bad! Take a break. Others - piano only! so there'd a bunch of guys sitting it out. Others - we love that stuff bring it on. I've heard some fascinating raps on trio versus quartet versus quintet versus choir/chorale and why one's more godly than another or one just isn't godly at all. :blink: I went through the musical iconoclast stage and that was good for me and Way Productions at that time was a bit of that for me cuz that style of folk/soft rock/cabaret/country thing wasn't on my radar at all. But doing that I learned SO much from and with the others that came through there with me and after me, some very talented and hard working people with a lotta love. And Ted - Ted's story alone is worth a book or two. He's been dere, done dat. I felt playing with him like - I realized very early on when others of us from my 'hood first heard he and Mardelle and got to know them - MAN. This guy's the real thing. First week I met him he gave me and another guy a tour of his music collection - boxes of sheet music stacked 4 high and music ranging from Bing Crosby to Muddy Waters. In Ted I saw a kindred heart - music, any music, all music, gimme music. 'Sall good. I learned a lot from him and for that, there's no price. Cheers! . Today the field of music is open to a range that would have been almost unbelievable in say, 1965, That's a good thing IMO. But it has been a long strange trip to say the least and looks to be far from over. :)

U2 has a somewhat similar history chock. They've ceratainly developed over the years,in a number of different ways, Tradiional versus hmmm, whatever, say "contemporary" isn't a concern to me. What goes around comes around. There's need to retain an open mind and heart, Some want that ol' time religion and music and that was good enough for my daddy so it's good enough for me. That's fine - those who feel that way should have a range of access to that IMO. Those who don't should have an access to what speaks to them. At the center there can be unity and harmony, as there's no divisiveness of "God's part". It's justa bit of a quandry for many that they may shift their church based on the "music" - one could say it doesn't matter to which another can say then why bother, or why be so strict in what's used or not used? And on the other side of the lectern it can be a losing battle where no one's every completely happy no matter what you do, The current music ministry and business endeavors may be on the right track over - all, once (IMO) we get over this pop-infatuation bump. It's being fed by the media and information explosion - what once might have been a regional local effort and effect can be global in days - hours even. That spreading of any one piece of information can be a good thing - or not, Over the years- yes, my observation has been that christian ministry/gospel music and all that's around that has change eNORmously, Largely for the better IMO. It'll change more and again.

Indeed. I'm reminded that as with the Sing Along The Way songbooks, decisions are made. By someone. One aspect to this is the support system that hmmm, supports all of this. Starting up a P and W group and activity is a big effort. Where to start, what to do, how to do it. Who can do it, who wants to, basically a pastor is looking at his flock and seeing what''s there, what's needed, what can he do, what can they do, what can be done. People may volunteer, varying levels of ability in both what they can do and have time to do. Care is required to honor the hearts of the people in any effort, with respect. P and W is supported now by a massive support system of music, instructional materials, guides, reperetoire break downs, orders of service, tapes, CD's, DVD's and just about everything you'd need or want plus some. There are packages of materials to assist a church to get started and going. I'm sure you're familiar with this Thomas, more than I. Again, it's not a bad thing and may be all that a group of people are going to do. If there are more resources, over time, there can be diversity. Much of this music is very usable to an early effort or where you have limited resources - backing tracks, song books, etc. If you have a pianist or a guitarist, basic musicianship - a 4 chord song and simple melodies are very doable. The "great" hymns and songs people love are often simple - not all, but become so - over time and they're enjoyed over and over again. So that's an element too and of course the heart and the effort of the individuals is everything. Anyhoo - yeah, nice discussion!