socks

Thanks! I found this news to be so clearly indicative of the root problem of the Way's pay-for-pray teaching ministry. There's always money involved. "Cheap and cheesy" perfectly describes the Way. anyway...PEACE KIDS!

It's just looks like an add on for existing "subscribers" - they ask for your "customer number" when you "subscribe". If you're an existing customer/member of The Way you already have one. Non customer/members have to contact the "Bookstore" by phone or mail to buy individually. When you read it closely what they're selling is access. The stuff you get is whatever that access gives you, in this case it's a "digital" product. They're using the same ol' convoluted control mechanisms wrapped in new money - $2 a pop.

Thank you! I'm proud of the work we put in. The time, and remember - "it was on your dime", as I like to say. As it grew and continued it was financed by the ABS of the Way's members. It honored the music that so many great souls were a part of it. The product itself was a work in progress. I used to wince that people were or felt forced to listen to music they didn't like sometimes, namely ours. I've studied, played and enjoyed music all my life and although I've listened to a lot I don't prefer I would never in my life insist anyone be immersed in music they flat out didn't like. I tried to encourage people to build their own "libraries" of inspirational music, make cassette tapes of stuff that made them feel good, happy, inspired, thoughtful, whatever. Not a terribly profound idea but one that would work well as time went on and technology did too. Today, playlists. On the whole I'm proud of what we did though, the intent was to bless, to inspire, to give an additional source for someone to see and learn what the Word of God taught. It was far from perfect, but it was a hearty effort by everyone involved and as time went on others did things with dance and various arts. Unfortunately some of those who came onboard with Craig had no investment in the legacy of the work and no heart for the love of it and managed to dismantle it.

Did you ever get this answered? The copyright.gov site covers it pretty well. I dealt with this a lot over the years for employers and online content and their lawyers always promoted permission, citation and full crediting for any use of material that was used, when it was being quoted verbatim and specifically if it was in the format of the creator on even the most benign and innocuous material and circumstance. But it also depends a little on 1. your moral and ethical values and 2. how deep those ethical pockets are. In a worst case scenario the worst that can happen to most of us is a cease-and-desist order, which any licensed attorney - well, anyone really, can issue. But who wants that? So your question is valid. Two scenarios I dealt with were typical - if it was clearly for commercial use permission was required and cited in a set of footnotes at the end of the content, document, paper, etc. If it was use of a set of words and phrases that came from a piece of reference material like a dictionary or industry standard reference source - it was assumed that non licensed use was legal unless otherwise stated in the source material itself. It was still always cited and credited as source material in the footnotes. So if someone wrote .... "the definition of the term 'duty of care' may apply here, which in common legal definition is 'a requirement that a person act toward others and the public with the watchfulness, attention, caution and prudence that a reasonable person in the circumstances would use.' "....and it would be cited in the footnotes for the source of the quote. This can be expressed in language many ways, I could say the same thing but write "as it states in the online source dictionary.com.law" blah blah blah.......which covers the citation (and would still get included as a reference source in footnotes listing) but it would assume that non licensed use is permitted...... And your question was generally around "but is it?" You're on the right track. I knew the answers to that for most of the situations I encountered and understood the application of them, so I could actually do a first review of the content if it hadn't "been through legal" yet, and then forward to them for review and in nearly every case they hit that nail again and again with the answer "Let's make sure we have permission and include the statement in the footnotes". I'd consider contacting some reliable sources or an actual attorney to go over your questions. If it were me, and I was using publicly available reference material for the purpose of research, teaching and academic advancement I'd cite and note a nice clear thank you to the sources in my foreword and/or in the footnotes. If I were collecting a charge or donation for the material I'd written for the usual "covers cost and handling", I'd handle it that way too, thus declaring openly my intentions. Run it by an attorney for fast relief and get their answer in writing. Just the facts, please: https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html Some attorney talk about the facts: https://www.janefriedman.com/the-fair-use-doctrine/

That's a cool verse in Deut Twinky, thanks! Your church sounds like it's got the "right stuff".

Thanks! I'm glad you brought this book into the forefront. It can probably be summed up in one of the review quotes, the one you started out with that said "develop a thoroughly biblical imagination that takes in the comprehensive and eternal work of Christ in all people and all circumstances in love and for salvation. Rob Bell goes a long way in helping us acquire just such an imagination." A lot of theology takes an exclusionary view of salvation - working from a platform that keeps the sinner out. Yet if we're sinners we're already "out" and we aren't even born knowing it. We don't need to be kept out or denied anymore than we already are. We need "deliverance", we need to be brought in. Yet the N T asks me "Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" Then there's the ol' "That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Bell really (to me anyway) sets up the the point that this life, our lives now aren't simply one of justice withheld. I think something I held for a long time in my former Catholic training was the idea that this life is some kind of a test or puzzle and if I pass I get to proceed. That's over simplifying Catholic theology but a lot of it does tend towards an attitude of "this too shall pass" where the human condition is indeed temporary but WHOA! you better get it right or - well, they'll be hell to pay later. Jesus Christ was the epitome of an "ocean in a drop of rain". If He is and was everything I read about and I accept that, then this very moment, this day, year, is of vast eternal significance because the Creator has focused His creative expression ("Love") onto us and into us and this life we're in right now. It's a window to the future yes but in and of itself it's an incredible thing we are living here, now.

So - I finished re reading the book, Mr Rocky and figure to close the loop on this discussion. I can't think of anything Bell says logically or scripturally that makes me want to adopt his position, to be honest. Saying that, I think the emotion, the charis, of his message is closer to the truth than the hell and damnation stuff. As I understand and teach salvation, "hell" isn't really a topic. Jesus did talk about it but not in a way that I think me spreading His message now, needs to deeply consider. In the big context, it's another topic. Jesus Christ revealed God to mankind, gave the pneuma of God a visage, form, in which His intents could be seen, known, considered and even understood. Jesus Christ functioned in a very small corner of the world and the lessons and teachings of His life are better understood in a small community, familial context where a group (He and His disciples) exist within a larger familial style group (Jews) that function in an extended community spread over an area (land, geography, distribution of population) and that all are rooted in the same customs and culture while having their own twists and turns on them as the community border grows and spreads over time...and all of which exists in another different and separate social governmental community that exercises a degree of control over them (Rome and Roman rule and occupation). In that context when Jesus said that seeing Him was like seeing the Father - He made an incredibly powerful point that was impossible to miss by those who were with Him. Jesus forgave, offered mercy and forgiveness, grace. He healed and restored people to health. He wouldn't have done so if it were not what God willed. And He did that in a very small intimate context. Although we live in a time of global awareness I am not of the mind that the Christian message is best understood that way. The "body of Christ" is a very large community of course but it won't be fully congregated until the future and then into it's much larger context. We need to be aware of the larger church community of which we are a part and to which we can have an impact, but our direct part in it is immediate. I think some of today's conflicts in the church come from the desire of members to see themselves on too large a level, where pastors try to teach the entire world, apostles try to speak for the destiny of the entire church, teachers want to reach vast congregations of listeners. The real work of the church that most closely resembles what Christ DID ON EARTH is local, personal, intimate and real. His greater purpose was of course, infinitely vast. Selah, as they say. That's about it for me, just tying up loose ends. Peace n love!

Beautiful!

How does that include posts being deleted? because you had a poster who said “fuck off” or whatever it was? and then all related posts are gone. It’s just weird to me. That’s posturing at Posturepedic best. “As you were” simply meant - return to your normal activity. I guess this is it, hey? Good job!

Really??? damn you can’t say anything around here anymore. how weird. It’s like say ing it cant happen because it wasn’t appropriate and offended someone, so it didn’t. Tight ship? GS is an odd bunch these days I’ll give you that, but that’s the wrong way to go imo. put another way - reality’s a bitch but it’s one we know. as you were, all. As you were.

I'm gonna go with "yes he did mean to pull his leg".

We will. All this posturing and BS'ing will be over, we won't have to try and be something we really don't want to be and just allow ourselves to be the lovable lives God has made us. I just don't believe he was a "drug runner" of any type. Sorry, I think he was pulling your leg to appear like he had a deep dark pasta and was some sort of a player. Hey - if you're out there Chris, prove me wrong. We can compare notes. Meanwhile I wish you and your wife health - settle down beavis! We're not kids anymore. PEACE!

Thanks! Yes, it does. I've tried to kinda fold over a starter into whole wheat. I've got a batch of 1/4 whole wheat and 3/4 white rising now. I've been able to get a 3/4 ww to 1/4 white with results, but I'm still working at it. I had to restart after I had a batch in the fridge for too long without a feeding and it didn't come back - well, there's a very small part of it in the current one so I guess it did sort of. When you get a nice batch of starter, dry some out on a sheet and then freeze it. I do that every few months and use that to refresh the starter after a period of inactivity. I think it works or helps, or something. I don't think it hurts it. It's fun! Interested in what you share here.

So I’ve been dinking with my starter which had gotten pretty blah. For about 3 days I added a 1/4 cup of flour and water and gave it 12 hours or so, so I fed it about 5-6 times before it got lively last night, almost doubled in size and visible bubbles on top. I’m making a loaf today, so we’ll see what happens.... ....I put a photo of how it looks a few times I removed about a 1/4 cup of the ongoing starter before feeding, which I’ve read can help it along. I made a roll out of one instead of tossing and it was surprisingly edible, considering the starter was still in waking up mode. I put some photos of how it looks sliced, not as airy as I’d like but the taste was good and it was soft and squishy. everyone I know who’s made sourdough bread sort of shrugs and says keep feeding it and it’ll bubble up at some point so the newest thing I learned was to be sure to refrigerate it if I’m not baking a load for a couple days. .... and then allow 2-3 days feeding to bring it back.....?

Thanks. I brush lightly with butter or oil, and sprinkle kosher salt, pepper, and a spray of sesame and flax seeds.

Hi - just saw this. I'm into my second year of making sourdough bread at home. I have been humbled more times than I want to say, so take this with a grain of alkalinity seltzer. Still learning and re learning things I've learned, and I'm a complete novice/amateur/beginner, but getting more consistent results as time goes on. I think. Maybe. i've encountered exactly what you're describing, mostly in whole grain but occasionally with white flours. I've tried adding yeast - self defeating and doesn't help much. Baking powder or soda, not great results. I've used carbonated water and it basically adds more air bubbles for the starter to bubble in but it won't contribute to the actual "rise". May add some flavor too though, which isn't bad It starts with the Starter - I have to work with it until it's super active - that means the starter will increase noticeably as I feed it and wait - say within 8 hours a really active starter will increase 50% in size and ideally "double". When it's doing that, make your loaves as soon as possible, using the starter. I use a "1,2,3" rule for mixing dough - 1 part starter, 2 parts water, 3 parts flour. No more than a teaspoon of salt although you don't have to add that. They say to use weight instead of measuring - I've done both, either, whatever. I may add more water as I go, or flour, but having a good amount of starter in to begin with helps it to rise. The resulting dough ball will hold it's shape without immediately sagging or falling. If the starter was lively to begin with the proofing should see rising within 4- 6 hours, I'm ready at about 8, but can take longer. I've gotten good results going right from that first proof to a quick shaping and then second proof of maybe 1-2 hours or so and then onto my pan. I put a small tray of water in the back of my oven, to moisturize the bake - supposedly that gives it the thin crunch crust which is what I want and it seems to work. Then I bake at 390 for about 30 minutes. I don't back at higher temps as my oven seems to run hotter over longer times and I've ended up with bricks at higher temps. Here's a few rolls I got, below. They started as about half that size, and rose. I don't think I did a second proof with them, they ballooned right up. don't have a pic of the slice, but they were airy and "bubbly" inside. Having said that, I too am a batch away from my next set of bricks. Its' an elusive sport, this. BUT MAN THEY TASTE GREAT WHEN I GET IT RIGHT. Let us know how you do!

Agreed, it's a well beaten horse at this point. Dialectical thinking moves many of the discussions on GS forward. It can be assumed that if there's interest it will generate questions, inquiry. In fact I think dialectics is one of the stronger methodologies exhibited in online discussion groups like GS. Because it's inherently arbitrary and can allow for resident skepticism it's not always a satisfying way to come to a conclusion, however it is a very useful way for normal and reasonable discussions to take place.

There's no character analysis underway, mate. My comments weren't about what I think about you, they were about this discussion and how you're handling it. I will say this - so few people seem to really understand what it means to love others, as God loves, irrespective of what others say or do. That way of relating to creation excludes animosity, or in fact anything other than the appreciation for life as our Creator has given. "As He is". My prayer for you and everyone else I don't know is that you enjoy that kind of life, more and more, everyday. Have a nice day.

Res ipsa loquitur sometimes the facts speak for themselves. like a mal practice suit against a surgeon, the classic example of a sponge being left inside a patient. "Negligence", because a sponge wouldn't be left inside a patient after surgery WITHOUT there being some form of negligence. No one in a court case would be debating what leaving the sponge inside the patient is or means - that's already understood by the facts of the case. Thus, the mere existence of that condition indicates negligence, given the established procedures and outcomes of (the) surgery. Still and all, a court case and a jury hearing might be necessary to the carrying out of real justice and in so doing it exposes the realities of the case to all angles and approaches. Thus viewed, debated, countered and considered the outcome will be what everyone knew it would be at the outset........ Barring some form of....procedural inconsistency or anomaly. Tampered evidence, incorrectly instructed witnesses, etc. etc. etc. Thus the voice of the facts and the determinations related to them could end up being set aside for another day or perhaps never to be revisited again. Begging the question, if a fact spoke for itself and no one was there to hear it, could be it still be heard? Producing the answer, of course, that that statement....speaks for itself.

This is weepy hogwash. No one here speaks for me and people need to speak for themselves. "rightly dividing" the Word of God has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the Way or with you. You simply have a position that you believe is the correct one and you aren't going to consider that the very scriptures you and many others read and interpret can be interpreted to mean different things. This is something that is easily missed when the emphasis is on specific word parsing. The true understanding of what the Bible teaches about any one thing must be understood through the context of it's history, up to and including the most recent and current records of the N.T. The balance of material will quite literally "Interpret itself" in the text themselves. Yet there will be disagreement. Myself, I just excused myself from the discussion for the very reasons that were noted above - despite the fact that there had been discussion and various forms of disagreement and alternative opinion offered you continued to essentially keep whacking away at the same material, as if writing it again would make it make more sense. It doesn't. I just wanted to take exception to your interpretation of what's been written here to mean that those of us who have contributed to the discussion have no interest in "rightly dividing the Word of God"....thats a cheap exit excuse on your part. Many of us do, which is why I took the time to engage you. Today Im going to speak to and see a lot of people who share my faith and who don't all agree with each other on certain points of their faith in Jesus Christ, but who all love each other and share together because of that one thing - their faith in Jesus Christ. He's bigger than both of us mate - keep your eyes on the Savior and all of this will make better sense and come into perspective. PEACE!

Well, I was free - always free to make my own decisions, and I did. When I got involved with the Way and VPW, I already knew I didn't really "need" to do any of that - the Way Corps, being a member/non-member of the Way, get the cap, the t-shirt, the certificate, all of it, in order to be a fully functional Christian believer. I'd given that all up already once by not continuing formal relations with Roman Catholicism. I still felt and feel that my faith's roots are in that religion, as it's where I learned of Christ to begin with, where I read the bible in school, and began the journey of my life BUT I moved into another stage, phase, of what I was going to do next. Rather I made a deliberate decision to "sign up" to work with the Way, and for the Way, as a means to try and carry out the personal vision I had as a Christian. I'd heard the teaching, done the work the first couple years to learn it, had a question or three about it but realized through other things I'd read and participated in I had some of the same and some different questions about all of it, period. Hooking up with Dr. Weirwille and the Way Corps and making the music ministry my primary focus was deliberate - I decided - okay, I'm going to work with this group and see where it goes and what I can do, because I'm going to do something.....and I'd already seen how frail organizations were and the Christian movement at that time were. (like Lonnie Frisbee and Ted Wise, two names that always come up with the California Jesus Movement. I met Lonnie once - in San Francisco - he seemed like a highly energized guy and as charismatic to his peer group as he's been described but I knew that wasn't for me. Within a couple years I was getting a more solid idea of what I wanted to try - as things went I said fine, I'll give this a shot. Unlike some but along with many others I saw the "power of God" and the active living of pneuma hagion-new birth in ample display at that time, both in and out of the Way. I've been "ordained" three times, the last time was in the formal ceremony of the Way Corps. Each time before that was in relation to doing the work of the ministry of the Church, of reaching and caring for those who heard, believed and lived in their new faith. Each time, "sent forth" in life in service. I met my wife before any of the Way, we dated, we married and have a relationship over the last 5 decades that has nothing to do with the Way Nash, as a formal part of that relationship. When it was time to leave, I did. A few years late, as it turned out, but I wasn't ready to make the break at the time I first saw it but I knew it was going to happen. Finally I did it, after offering to go up to the Farm and do anything I could to assist and help, if they thought it would help. Townsend told me to check back in 6 months - "If I'm still here, let's talk".......I knew, that ain't gonna happen. And I realized from the expression on his face how crazy it was to think of trying. I can only speak for myself. With the time left I have an idea of the direction unfolding before me and that'll hopefully be a blast! "Be the change I want to see"......

Thanks! Yes, seems like I've read that or read it somewhere, most of it reads very familiar and I've heard versions of what would be some of it, from different people. Craig seems to have moved very very quickly from what it seems he said was God's revelation to him to dealing with the blowback and breaks in ranks that was going on and sure to continue. So that covers a lot of that, and I appreciate you doing that, so to bring it to the top - although I guess I'm kind of going sideways and south on the original topic, so sorry for that - but I'll toss in what I get back from this other source as it comes to me. So I can say I understand how "WOW" came down the pike, as I was there for it and had my personal ownership of my participation in that idea, that vision. The most common definition was an active Twig home fellowship in every community in every city, state, country, around the world. So a city like New York might have 5 or 50, a city like Novato might have 2, etc. etc. But it was always a relatively dense sub population in any city, even just "one" wasn't considered a success "back in the day", although I think that was retooled as time went on. And I think Craig's shift to "Prevailing Word" was a puff cloud because he has to measure against the previous goal of "WOW" - so by that time he could probably say whatever he wanted, VPW could do the same thing. Now - getting from Craig's re invention exercise BACK or AWAY from it to whatever it is they're doing now - I guess then they just needed to say "we're doing this now" and that was it. There must have been a strong under current against Craig by that time. And that's something I heard from some that left after that - I heard from one guy that said "At least I got to see Craig get what was coming to him!"...... By that time they must have been pretty beat up mentally and emotionally. Yikes, not a pretty picture.

Thanks! That mirrors what I"ve heard before, the night Craig and Reynolds covered it. There's a bit of speed bump in the narrative but it may be that he moved from the old to the new so quickly - after gestating all the disruption and dissension in the Way Corps for so many years there. So he must have decided to move quickly and decisively, cut losses and keep it going. Thanks, I appreciate that. "Word over the World" was something that was very clear to me, so we probably differ in how we're processing it all. From the earliest fellowships I went to in California in 1968, to the time I first met Donnie Fugit in California when he came out to visit with a few people from Kansas,, to going cross country in 1971 and visiting several locations where there were fellowships, to what I did with fellowship myself in California in Oakland, to "going WOW" in the 1972"B" wave, to then going into the Corps....my previous conversations with Dr. Weirwille were about the Word of God and the message of salvation and what we were doing to extend that kind of work using music, in California. Within those first couple years I had become certain beyond any doubt that the things I was seeing and being a part of were real, unadulterated miraculous grace in action. So I was convinced, and as PFAL became a part of that it broadened out considerably. Going into the 4th Corps was something he and I talked about - my wife and I had applied to the 3rd Corps but it was a tight fit and he suggested that several others musicians were coming into the 4th Corps and that would be where he was hoping something could get going. There was a lot involved in these decisions for my wife and I - and I was very young - but at the center of it all was reaching others with the message of the new birth in Christ and the teaching of the "more than abundant life", manifesting God's spirit and "walking on the Word" as taught in PFAL. This had taken off in California and was doing so across the country. One of the things we - some of us anyway - in that early effort of Way Productions cared deeply about was reaching others through the ministry of "music" and one on one preaching and pastoring. My original experience and relative success with music was by working in the public market, not the gospel or religious market. So I had a fairly young but clear idea of what music was and it's role in WOW, and the idea of reaching every person through the local neighborhood fellowship effort - ie "fellowship" and each one reaching another one - was understood to be doable. That's why I was willing to travel across the country and slowly but surely try to be part of doing that. We used to have a joke that one of us in JN came up with when we talked about "WOW" - we pictured what it would be like if "it" ever happened, that there'd be some great party, beer and Drambuie would flow and VPW would have a "We did it!" t-shirt on and it would be at some ROA 2000 or something - I'm sure I didn't think it would take any longer than 25 years or so....and it was just a joke, but I did have a somewhat youthful vision that while it might not happen the way I thought it would - I wanted to aim big and miss small and I was going for it, as unrealistic as might seem. I have an elderly family relative who knows a very little about what we did and he likes to smile and tell people that my wife and I - "got married and went together....to save the world, they were going to change the world!".....I told him once that I didn't come close - and he grabbed my wrist and shook it and told me NO! You changed yourself and you tried to help others, I know that and you did that for sure..." Every once in s awhile I run across someone from 30 - 40 years ago who tells me how they're lives have gone and I'm thrilled to have been a part of it, big or small. I have to admit that I could never make that journey from where I started to the follow along with where Craig took it - not that I'm smarter or better .... well, smarter maybe sure, maybe - but that may be because I'd always had a personal vision and process I was involved in trying to do and to live. Not always successfully, by any means, but working at. So perhaps it was different for others, they'd have to speak to that themselves.

True. But I'm starting to get the impression that either no one here now knows exactly or if they do there's not a lot of detail around it. I put a feeler out to someone who would, to see if they could explain it in 25 words or less and if they can't, then I'll post back here that indeed, those wipers are about as good as it's going to get.

Yeh, I record Fallon, stay up a lot and catch him too. He's a kick at home.