socks

cman, interesting discussion - I see it described more as a 'birth'. How can a man die? Happens everyday. How can a man be born again? With God it's possible. From fetus to full term a growing baby isn't able to prepare for it's next transition consciously, it has no knowledge of it and isn't aware of it, probably wouldn't want it to happen if it knew what was going to happen. Since it hasn't happened yet there are no memories accumulated, no context or sense of 'self' to compare anything to. And as it happens the baby's progress into the immediate new life is a bumpy road for baby and bearer, to say the least. I don't see the description of "death" as transitional, not in the Bible or elsewhere. There are lots of metaphorical comparisons to transition, change, needing to embrace death and accept it and attempt to understand it, yes. It's understandable to me that we don't know of ourselves "what comes next" as it's a "you can't get there from here" proposition. It's also not like a birth, although people describe it in those kinds of terms sometimes. Transition, change, letting go of one thing to grasp another - I get all that. But death is a zero sum total by all appearances and historical indicators. As a Christian I see the "new life" in Christ and God but I don't see death as a friend or ideal part of life. It is what it is and the way it is though. Barring intervention our physical bodies die. I might also put it in musical terms, artistic ideals - a violin can be built, seasoned through playing and time and then by deliberate effort or simply time, be destroyed. The music written and played on it however can endure.

What's "everything"? What's "simple"? and why would anything have to be simple? "Never" covers a lot of ground. I don't think that all of known time populated by individuals who choose independently of each other qualifies as simple, but once that's accepted and the fact that the seemingly endless range of possibilities of everyone having done whatever they did within that range of time has already occurred it does fit into a quantity less then infinite so it can at least be looked at and observed albeit with limited scope ("me", "you" "now") and even projected ahead. Always simple, no. Never not simple - no. Put another way............"it is what it is". But it isn't what it isn't.

Skeetering on to the off topic thats' on - Oldskool, you made me think about organizational models. Years ago I knew little about them but got interested through what's in Ephesians and then over the years learned more about them in business contexts. The two basic business models are "Organizational" and "Functional", where the former stresses process and a hierarchical grouping and reporting structure and the latter stresses grouping like kinds of disciplines and work together that reports within itself and works cross-organizationally to do work. There's often a primary "straight" line of reporting in a business, accompanied by a "dotted" line secondary reporting relationship and these can have either the Organizational or Functional model dominant. There are other models and hybrid forms of each and all but usually one is predominant. After some time I realized that the Way uses what it considers a "biblical" Organizational model, with responsibility and accountability working up and down from the top to the bottom, where the top layer governs from the top, to all layers. This is modeled after their interpretation of what Ephesians states where there's a "head" and members "in particular" and God "working in all", "through Christ" and then "ruling" gift ministries and what might be called "special dispensations" of ministries as VPW felt he had. ("The Word....like it hasn't been known since", etc. ) Which reads right the first few times but in practice, on the ground now you would not have a "head" "man of God" or embedded position of a primary leader through whom directives come that govern the day to day activities of the members, as God and Christ work "in all" all the time - the relationship is one - to - one. It could be described as God sees all the members through one line of sight but the individuals see God through many lines of sight, each their own. The only intermediate level isn't between them (Christ) but exists to have provided the means for the one-to-one relationship to occur. So - Ephesians describes a Functional model that gets it's juice through a very simple Organizational structure. In business contexts it's very stripped down and lean, not a million meetings with Upper Management to determine if it's okay to spend a dollar or go forward with a task and then reporting back in triplicate to everyone for review and approval. The Ephesians model of the Church is lean and mean and appears designed to be a kind of interim plan and which will support the "body" concept through transition and fit with the future end-game. Dunno - just thoughts. The NT Epistles have become a happy hunting ground to prop up every new paradigm that comes along (The Way Tree being one of them) but I don't think that anything that's set forth hard and fast and "the only way" to run the Church is going to be correct if it supersedes the direct-path relationship each person has with God, through Christ.

Indeed. It's a public access road. I suppose as the owners of property on it they have a right to secure it. Local Blokels aside, making it part of the security beat and following every car that shows up going down it....? That's a real pare o' noids they're running there.

Figured that chock, thanks. It amazes me that local kids would be able to penetrate the shield of protection to that degree, that they could actually get ON the property and do that. It's nothing really new, joyriders hitting the grounds but when there were more people around they'd at least stay on the road hooting and hollering and of course shooting up the "Pregnant Guppy" sign out on 29. It's a weird area in that regard. Rural America I guess. It's strange that such things would go on, in "the City" destruction of property puts people in jail. What do they do in Shelby County, revoke their license to buy beer for a week? It's not a popular position but perhaps it's the local yokels who cause some of the overt security measure, the following of cars down the road, knowing that it could be a group of funsters looking to mark their 18th birthday by doing doughnuts on the Way's grass....? Just sayin'..... I really feel the answer to that is - well, many years ago there were some cars of known dipwads that targeted W. Rd late at night, buzzing individuals at events like the ROA. They ran a person off the road one year who ended up with a broken arm. Rumor had it that several concerned citizens later that week were met by the same group, chasing them down nearby back roads. As chance would have it another car of Wayfers, perhaps two, was coming down the same road at the same time and incredibly, were able to stop in time to avoid a collision. Now, with several cars of Wayfers to the one car of joyriders, information was...exchanged once they'd all stopped, in the dark, on one of those backroads and it was suggested that these kinds of activities might be unsafe and should stop immediately. Details are sketchy . This was only a rumor and may never have happened and if it did I'm sure no one any of us would know was involved. Different times, indeed. But it's a sad sad commentary on the state of affairs at the Way that they can't let a single car drive down the road without following it, whatever the cause or case. Y'know?

How odd that you can't drive down that road without being followed. is it a public road? I remember it was a rural route - who actually owns that? Interesting report from the Sidney Daily News this year... TUESDAY -9:52 p.m.: vandalism. Shelby County Sheriff's deputies responded to the Way International, 5555 Wierwille Road on a report of a Dodge Intrepid tearing up the yard. 10:00 at night an Intrepid in the "yard" - on a Tuesday? Where was the Security that night? And what do they do when a car shows up tearing up the yard? Watch while they call the police? Did they follow that car? I think you see where I'm going with this.... cluck cluck cluck cluuuuu-u-ck.....!

Engaging people one on one in conversation about things that matter to them is a good way to address concerns about the Way Nash and it's practices. The entire topic of Jesus Christ's nature, being "God" and all of that is such a brain freeze for most people that they generally just accept it. With or without VPW's book JCING it's a very good idea to revisit the topic of who we think Jesus Christ "is" and why. I don't believe that JC Is God, as a matter of fact. Personally, historically, doctrinally, my understanding is very clear on that. I don't agree with all of the contentions in that book however and don't think it covers the Bible's record of who Jesus Christ was and is sufficiently. Who He IS is different than who He is NOT. Wayfers of old and new will say "well, when did YOU suddenly get so smart???" as if making such statements indicates a superior level of intelligence. Everyone else will just want to get me reprocessed and re saved. It's been over 40 years since I first heard that teaching and I've had at least 30 or so to continue to read, study, pray and continue to learn. Wayfers read the same books over and over. Wayfers particularly have a lack of respect for others that elevates what they "know" over everyone else. The whole history of the Way's teaching on JCING is one of disdain for the "idolatry" of others, yet most who rely on that book simply don't know the topic well enough to come to those conclusions. There is no more important thing in Christianity than who JC is. It's a vital topic to engage anyone on, regardless.

What is it you want to accomplish by giving (them) a book, Naten?

He is. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/byZXD-AHg3g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> They were too. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mIg0o9COmN0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That's the stuff, right there ways', right on. Mr. Waters knew. He knew.

Old Man: "It seems like if you want to be a 'Christian' you have to just be stupid... believe stuff with no explaination." Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all." Can't speak for everyone else but doing my own inventory, on face value I don't have an explanation for many things, Christian and non-Christian. In fact I can't explain most things I rely on day to day. I can't explain why there's so many auto accidents on the freeway I do my daily commute on, given the fact everyone's doing the same thing....or are they? Looked at another way I can't explain why there aren't MORE accidents given the variables. It should be one long string of fender benders come to think of it. Get on the freeway, drive 3 minutes, bang. Next. Yet, I've driven for decades, over 40 years more or less without anything close to a scraper. Uh oh - "jinxed"....? How will I explain this 10 years from now if I don't have an auto accident? Will it explain that jinxing doesn't work? Or that I stopped driving? I think the endless stream of a universe of possibilities that we try to explain by reason relies on our observation of reliability and predictability where a thing occurs more than once, thrice to triangulate and many or enough times for us to assume we know what we're experiencing, and have some grip on it's repetition, that's it's the same thing or things and after that it's all math. (enter the Squirrel!) or put another way if something only happens once it's hard to capture it fully enough to understand it's entire context. Which I think goes to the general topic of "religion" and man's efforts, inspired or otherwise, to capture his world. People want to take an individual experience and understand it in the context of that of others and work from the standpoint that it's going to be "the same" when it can't be. Ultimately the joining of completely separate and individual non-repetitive instances of something ("Me", "You") is going to be difficult to say the least. If I were a musician I'd look at music and see an example of how that happens mentally, emotionally and physically, real time, on the ground. Successful examples of what's possible abound. I think many people want more. To me the more is of another realm and looks different but has similarities. People learn to understand themselves by what's different - sort of goes with the territory I think. But to make anything work with more than one of us we need to find at least one similarity. Saints identify sinners but both are something else and that something else is what allows for seeing the difference and it's the one thing that's the same about both. If we could only nail down that Same Thing and bottle it I'm sure we could make a bundle. It should be, could be enlightening and instructive if not out right enjoyable. Why it's not for so many - dunno, but I'll be on the freeway tomorrow morning. I doubt that guy could explain much of anything he takes for granted to the satisfaction of someone else who disagrees or holds another opinion though. Or could he? "Explain" is an interesting term. I can explain something something in great detail, graphs, charts, stat's and a screaming summary statement - now what? "That's stupid!"....?....Fine. Go get your own PowerPoint. I do think the Christian life is about more than doing good though. That's good, doing good and I'm all for it. More better gooder, that's my motto. Christianity does have it's differentiators as they say and it's own brand. Look for it where ever fine faiths are being sold and all that but I think it stands out.

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Aye aye! I fear nothing. Well, I take that back. These pants make my butt look big, mostly because well, it's not as big as it was but it's certainly not as small as it will be. There's the scarey part - "will be". How small will it get? And once small will it expand back to it's previous and larger state? This may be the most scarey thing of all in life, the constant never ending continuous back and forth of this cross cut saw like pattern of the expansion and reduction of my butt. I can't even see the dammed think without craning my neck so who cares??? - perhaps that explains the invention of the mirror, the better to view the current condition of the posterior portion of my pants and what's in them back there. Yeah, there is always that, yeah. Big scarey that or at least potentially.

To briefly agree - the comforter, or counselor as that's translated at times, is referred to as a specific thing, an event that Jesus said would occur later in a specific time frame. We can't really take that and make it a euphemism or a general kind of reference to whatever or anything we want, although it could be taken many different ways and applied to many different kinds of things. Iif the words in the bible are to be taken as a meaningful set of statements with a context and definition. Likewise with "death" being an enemy and "loving your enemies". That's just not a sound connection there cman, sorry. People talk about "learning to live" with their enemies too......you can't do that with death, literally. Death is simply not the optimal progression for life. Well, maybe it could be I guess, it could be simply that life has an expiration date, a known start and end time and that's that. The whole deal with the bible speaks to another reality though, or one that's different at any rate.

"what-is-the-best-way-to-get-someone-out-of-the-way-or-how-did-you-get-out" I left

"Never had PFAL." That probably accounts for you not hearing Weirwille making that statement, the original question.

Hmmm...G St. G's correct, in PFAL the context of the statement wasn't JCNG, although the underlying foundation of who Jesus Christ is in PFAL is he's "son of God", not God. But it was hammering salvation at that point, not identify. The reference was "if you think he's the bas tard son of"...etc. Tell me what you think of Jesus and I'll tell you how far....so if you think he was a fable, human prophet, good teacher, bad dance, whatever, you won't go far. If you think he's the Son of God, then etc. etc.

I've heard so many outrageous things over the years from so many people, so many situations, etc. etc. I think the comments thus far on the anger / venting conduct would qualify as "most" rage -eous, in or out. In high pressure, physical situations the volume level will go up, I think that's fairly normal. You're loading a truck, someone's about to knock something over, "hey! move back! MOVE BACK!"...."Okay, back up....you're good, keep coming! more, more....stop! STOP!" That's normal, work related, appropriate for the situation, sure. I work in an office, people get amp'd up at times. No one "shouts" at anyone else, there may be disagreements, it's civil and professional - but when people own their work and take pride in and there's something at stake, yes, there's going to be emotional exchanges. Respect is essential. If you don't respect people it will show very quickly and they simply won't work with you. People worked with him and his weirdness because it was a requirement, the cost of being around him. People do that kind of thing sure, but you'd think in a Christian ministry you'd get less of that sort of treacherous treatment. A B C's = Act in the best interests of others and the work you do Believe the best from your co-workers and assume their intent is good before you assume it's bad. Communicate through all of the above. The Way was good at those things at one time, and got very bad at them over time. There's nothing to excuse the overt, consistent and repeated venting that people like Craig inflicted on those around them. Acting as if the interests of those he worked with wasn't important . Believing the worst about anyone he didn't like, understand or who didn't cater to his cottonballed vision. Communication? Guess it speaks for itself. Most outrageous and unexcellent indeed.

Wasn't Rico Magnelli the Public Affairs/Media guy for the Way at one time, or still is? If that was his advice to you oldtimer it was likely dispensed to others. Welfare designed by God? Dunno, it may not work at cross purposes to God, but I doubt it was designed by God Himself for those times when the Wayfers could use it. He's an idiot, sounds like. It historically has served both the poor and the unemployed. How convenient that God Himself designater'd the Welfare system to serve the Wayfers. All those unbelieving swines paying in, just for them. Sweet deal, and they like sweet deals, don't they? More clearly, if you were on staff at the time, he was telling you to use the same resources that anyone else would when they're in need. Nothing wrong with that. Tying it in to God though is the kind of usual b-sh-t ill - logic they use to feel special and get you to do what they want. . I guess. Having seen and heard some of the lying swill he produced over the Way Woods issue several years ago, if he said the sun was out in June, I'd go outside to check.

They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior. We do, indeed. Some of the old (maybe current) Wayfer conviction is to lump it all together under a single concept - that since all people sin, are "in" sin and become saved by Christ, all sin is the same, no levels of severity apply and nothing anyone does before during or after is of any extraordinary consequence. All sin, all are forgiven, all are saved, all is good. Therein is a disconnect in the doctrine he taught, that also existed when and while he taught it. All people sin and fall short - and we know that, it's an accepted part of basic Christian doctrine. All people are saved by God's grace and His mercy - and again, we know that, etc. There are no levels to sin, sin is sin, no one worse or better than the other. Whoa whoa whoa, back up a minute there baby. The basic argument popularized in the Way supports the view of salvation...and I do believe the Bible presents that case - all sin, all are saved, in Christ. Levels of "sin" were actually taught in the Way though and by VPW himself, but balanced on a leaning fence - "Homosexuality" was described by VPW as "the lowest man can go", the lowest of the low. Trinitarian Jesus-is-God doctrine was taught as idolatry, spiritual heresy and unacceptable to God. Hearing the "accuracy" of the Word and then not standing on it or even turning "against" it and those who believe it - 10 steps down below bottom on the spiritual ladder. You could do a lot of things in the Way and chalk it up to learning but break rank on any number of essential points and you'd be out, you, your family and anything that belonged to you or that you'd touched. Those are levels - in a flat-earth-sin world, neither is any worse than any other wrong, bad, sinful thing. As he taught it, they're no worse nor any better than anything else, good or bad. Same wok, same stir fry. He did not in fact live that way or run the ministry that way though. He was moralistic and judgmental in practice. He also taught that "rewards" were earned by behavior, "believing action". Do the Big Stuff and the Little Stuff won't get you dinged at the Bema, more or less. That's degrees of right and wrong, plain and simple. Burn the chaffe and keep what's left - the good stuff. Okay - but that being the case it means a person can do anything they want, good or bad, and it doesn't matter in the long run. If that's the way he wanted to look at it we could have saved a lot of time and effort on "Uncle Harry" days. Why bother? At any rate VPW taught one thing but in practice did another. Yeah, we all do that kind of thing at times. Never works out good. You can do what you want sure, it's your life, but tacking God's name on it is....touchy. That's a level, a degree of activity that warrents more respect than it got. How those things effect others may be the acid test upon which to start understanding hmmm, degrees....

Thanks cara. For what it's worth (and the cost is about right...) I picked up a book by a Scottish Missionary George Mackie, years ago, ran across it in a Borders I think. He was a Christian missionary in the middle east for many years and I think the period was around 1900 or so. "Bible Manners and Customs" is the book. In it he notes one of the differences in eastern and western religious thought and he gently suggests that both would benefit from the other - he observes that Western Christianity views God as good and that God does good things....think he puts it that way. He feels Eastern thought sees God more as -they see good and say God has done it and credit God for all good. Those are very broad statements of course and don't or won't fit east, west or wherever consistently (we could debate what "good" is until it went bad) but in a general way I think it describes a very fundamental aspect of how today's Christian thought has developed in the U.S. and the Way's teaching exemplifies it in the extreme - that nothing is good at all unless it fits within a very tight framework of man's expectation, an expectation built on a very strict interpretation of their current understanding of the Bible. That the only good things that can be - "really" good and true and right - are those that are validated by the individual's understanding of the Bible. I doubt they'd describe it that way exactly but that's really what it is - in the Way if something "happens" they don't understand they will generally assume it's suspect. Not "the best", somehow substandard and not worthy of their blessing as coming from "the true God. I had my own "Peter Moment" years ago in a situation where something truly incredible had occurred with me, that also involved my family. I didn't reject what had happened - I couldn't, it was a series of events that had in fact occurred exactly as they had. Yet I couldn't comprehend them and how wonderful the entire deal was. "Why and how" were questions I couldn't answer. Long story short the clarity came in the phrase "Good is where you find it". An almost overwhelming awareness that God wanted understood - that He is God and that His realm of life and activity is in no way limited to what I think it is or should be. In no way negating His Word, but to remember that in the billions of lives and moments that populate this universe at any given second, I am only one and that God is truly everywhere. For me it's a kind of prayer life, to ponder and consider the greatness of God, the magnitude of creation, all of this, any of this, play with sizing and scaling Him and then giving way to the impossibility of such a task and be kind of "filled to overflowing" with that life in me. It puts me into a completely different place setting myself to other tasks and work. People do similar things all the time I suppose, just the thought of the first double Latte' the day gets some of us going. . I'm not a "universalist", I don't see that everything is right or can be right or has to have some right-nes in it, just because or so we can all get along better. But for me, I've long since come to believe that while I am unique in God's eyes and loved, we all are. I can never orchestrate what God has set in motion, but I'm grateful to participate.

We'll see, won't we? A violation can exist and if it's never challenged just goes on. I guess all of their faithful followers, all 50 or so, could see this advertised, become confused and suddenly assume that The Way is now a movie and start an entirely new effort going to the movie on Sunday nights, fellow shipping in theaters two nights a week and putting all of their tithes and offerings in the Snack Bar for popcorn, sodas and candy which will likely encourage further attendance as suddenly and FINALLY something of real value is returned for their cash and then ultimately The Way of Shelby County would be justified in suing to recover all that lost money not to mention the emotional damages incurred by a wired Charlie Sheen showing up at the WOAW Auditorium by mistake one night, wired and wild, screaming "WINNING!" But, because it's a different application of the name - a movie - and not a religious organization, church or ministry, they'll probably leave it alone. The movie does have a Catholic connection though so there are religious implications to the name as used. They love to defend their right to those two words from the Bible and claim ownership, which follows form I guess but who knows. It would be humorous to see if their arrogance compels them to pursue violation - they need more bad publicity like a hole in the head so they'll probably keep it down. Then again this could be the floss that breaks the femus's back.

I understand the debt/financial advice to a congregation. Advising against taking on a mortgage for a home is suspect, right outta the gate. I never caught the development of this. Locally, at one time the Way Credit Union had a standing dollar amount for homes in the surrounding area, if the buyer could come up with the down payment. In fact, I think there was a set home price of 40k on the loans - if you had a home 40k or under you wanted to buy and had x amount for the down, you got the loan, processing was quick 'n' easy. For general membership it was more of a cultural and social influence not to incur debt. If a person could manage the financial part of buying a home themselves it wasn't a big issue. What the Way got out of that was that they had staffers owning property, paying taxes and with an active vote in their respective communities. It was a way to put down stakes in the area that would allow for meaningful participation. Sphere of influence stuff. It's one thing to come and go every year or two - if you own, spend $ with local providers and suppliers, pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. you have an impact and should by rights have a voice. I would figure it's probably a combination of two things - exercising their doctrinal authority with members, and the financial drain they went through when Martindale put the Way Corps on full time salary and the resulting need to scale down their financial spends and liabilities. That may have carried over and produced the policy ministry wide for everyone.

Couple thoughts - As a Lowes shopper I see where you're coming from OperaBuff. Do the same thing all the time. Aisle 13, I head that way. I browse, see a sale item, develop needs I don't have about tools I really like and then move on to where I find my stuff I came for. If they're out of it or don't really have what I came for I can apply all the gotta-have-it I want but it's not going to appear out of thin air if it's not there. The getting it is easy when it's there. I suppose all metaphors relating to paying for it etc. would apply too. It's a good example. In stock, paid for, bag it, I'm good to go. I don't really do much to get that super cool set of clamps I walk out with beyond show up, get directions and get it. "Limiting God" - I dunno. They lace the water at the Way Nash with arrogance, but if I were to apply that question to reality I'd say, sure, always, comes with the territory - I probably limit God more often than not. I suppose that's why I don't have a problem with the idea of "saying what the Word says"....whatever standards I can gather from the Bible, if I assume that sets the bar, that's it. But what that means in real time, on the ground - that can vary. I just push onward and outward, hopefully upward and try to allow for God to do His work and see how things go. I make my plans, decisions, live life and try to make it be informed by God's will. Saying I always know exactly what that is - I can't. And there's a real simple litmus test to apply to anyone who would be so arrogant as to say they can. I see it as we do the work in the domain we're responsible for, God does His. His will will always reign, whether I like it or not so it's better to get used to it and the sooner I do, the better for me. Reading the Bible, I can only say from my own personal experience that I see "believing the Word" a turn key kinda thing. Life as God would have it lived is delivered to us through Christ is a finished package. I live it now, learn the layout, and just get on with it. A person might say "I looked at the tornado and rebuked it in the name of Jesus Christ and it went the opposite direction and did no damage".....I get that but what's happening there is much different than a self--generated operation of hmmm, pneuma hagion, as if it's like using a hammer. VP taught in the PFAL series about "9 manifestations" - contained within that is a basic reality I think the Way got away from. I'm not arguing that the manifestations are correct as taught but rather that the concept under it is....he lists the 3 "worship" manifestations are the only ones that are self - generated, that a person initiates at will. The others rely on God's acting first - "if it's revealed", there are "if's" in the other 6, there's no load it, chamber it, trigger it and fire at will. Overall in Christian life, this is similar to how it is I think - we pray, worship, give mind and thought to God, pray on our behalf and that of others, we cry out to God at times, shout at others. We live life with all it's celebrations and failures with God, if we're honest with Him that's the most we can do. What God does, shows, reveals, gives, takes, moves, puts in our paths and brings to us and those around us - that's Him. Promises of the Word? Sure. Claim them? Go for it. Declare we produced the results because of our believing? That well's going to go dry real quick. Look at the Way - dust bowl. Within that is what I call the "spiritually serendipitous" life lived. Good is all around us all the time, like a river of goodness. Good swimmer or bad, it's always good to get wet....

Wanted to add - obviously there's a human component to this. What is it? Ever heard the phrase "accept" the Savior? What's that mean? Is it correct? Way lingo always qualifies everything - yeah, we accept but that doesn't mean laying down and becoming a door mat - heard that more than once. Classic "straw man argument" as they say. Sales technique - "you don't want to be a doormat do you?".........."well, no of course not!"............"well then, sign here and gimme your wallet and learn how to stand up and really believe God for once in your life!"..........."well, yes sir, sure do!"....... Same as "let God work in your life"......................Way Lingo counters "well, sure God works in your life but that don't mean he possesses you - the devil does that - do you want the devil to run your life, if so this isn't the place for YOU, you need God's Word!!".............."well, no, I mean yes, I mean, well no - can I come please?"...........God working of His own pleasure and intents in our lives isn't being "possessed" by God, but given the two alternatives only it's easy to see how one might choose. The VPster used to describe "revelation" from God like this - we don't demand it from God or tell God to tell us or act as if we're gettin' piped in news from on high all the time, we simply.........."believe"....................and if God has something to tell us, He will. He will. Regardless how we view the stuff he taught, if you actually start to think about it you realize pretty quickly that "believing" isn't plug 'n' play - there are variables and when looking at the moving parts there are some that don't - those that don't are all things "God does"........go back to his teaching on "standing and state" and you realize - the effort to go from "out" to "in" fellowship is only a thought away, a turning of heart, an attitude adjustment, a way of looking at and relying on - God. doing that you are as tapped into your "standing" as you're going to get, is what PFAL actually teaches. Who's the "way, truth and life" - our relationship to Jesus can't be one where cuts us loose after He gets us to the altar, so to speak. We continue to be pastored in this life by the Chief Shepherd. That's enough of that. I need to take up a collection, as we'll likely need to bribe the guards to keep this out of the Doctrinal Cave, rate I'm going.