socks

I'm not denigrating him. That means to criticize unfairly. I'm not being unfair. I'm being clear, and for someone with the potential for verbosity that I have, pretty concise. I'm also being honest, as far as I'm concerned because a person can't understand how and why the Way Inc. went the way it did without understanding how horribly bad he performed as President of the Way Inc. in both his personal and private lives. I can say something that will help Bolshy - if he'd like help with a specific set of circumstance he has encountered he'll need to say what it is, clearly. Till then I just wish him the best with whatever it is or was that's bugging him because it's largely academic without specificity. And he could do that here with a degree of anonymity, and it could be discussed openly. Just as Waydale allowed. And if others take exception or use the information for evil it'll be a repeat of what seems to have happened before, if I'm reading right. I guess. Hard to say.

"I recall one time he hauled me in, was surprisingly restrained, and told me he didn't know why God had so much patience with me when I made so many mistakes and was so disobedient. " VPW used to say things like that and Craig, all the Way bosses who mimicked them like lapdogs would say things like that - It's such an ungodly false and devilishly untrue statement. Christ is our intercessor, on the right hand of God and acting continually on our behalf as our intercessor. He's our Redeemer, the captain of our salvation. Grace and mercy are ours through the finished work of Christ. OF COURSE GOD IS PATIENT WITH US, ALL THE TIME. If anything we are thankful that God is patient and with us, every second, every day. It's so painfully obvious how he valued his own ego and man made religious rules above the Word of God. He could rip and rail on others for breaking a rule but didn't blink an eye on his own adulterous behavior and LYING ABOUT IT EVERY DAY TO THE ENTIRE MINISTRY. I think it strikes me as so sad because after all these years I'd be thrilled to hear he was doing well, that he'd been able to work with others who helped him. I had someone send me a link to some online videos of him teaching. He's at it somewhere, wherever, and that dark, gloomy voice of his has gotten even more foreboding. He still can't open his mouth without condemning everyone else and sounding like a prick. Patience? He's certainly benefitting from it himself.

Hi There! Thanks, I get it now.

Of course they did, I thought I made that clear. I'm not sure what you're saying happened to me, and being surprised, etc? I pretty much accepted Waydale, per WYSIWYG. Paul Allen never promised anything to anyone, but in doing what he did with Waydale he gave the ex Way universe a grand gift. As I said, IMO it was unprecedented and as you point out, the technology was at a perfect point to use it as he did. It was really a kind of tipping point now that we can look back. Waydale allowed for "the other" or perhaps arguably "another" side of the story to be told. Unfortunately that story was filled with a lot of bad things. People do bad things so if that reflected badly on others or closed one door while opening another, in any sense, it's the Way's fault, Martindale's fault for being such a prideful man, ego led and with all the intelligence of a bag of rocks and at his worst a heart of darkness lurking in his twisted machinations. The endless hours of hate filled spew he shoved down the staff and Corps' throats every lunch time and evening meeting created an environment of fear and defeat. They were so internalized as his reign of terror progressed I wouldn't take any negative possibilities off the table. And Allen gave those people and those before them a place for their voice to be heard. Finally. For better or worse, right or wrong, good or bad. The light was on. I suspect we agree in whole or part, maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part, if so don't worry about it, I won't. I may not be back for a bit but I did feel compelled to chime in on this topic as I know we were part of the Waydale experience. PEACE! n LOVE!

Waydale - nothing's ever perfect and we all know that. Waydale had a lot of twists and turns in it's tenure. I would agree in part that as a result of 100's, 1000's of people coming together to discuss their issues, problems, challenges and complaints about the Way and it's activities over many many years in what was unprecedented freedom of discussion there could be negative impacts on some people, in and out. Waydale had no ability to vette or qualify information posted and I myself know of some things that were untrue and heresay and I did have my own debates about things but...the purpose was to give a platform for people to write, to "speak" freely. This did lead to some of the most powerful and meaningful words I've ever read anywhere, about anything. Waydale was a game changer in the "ex Way" community, for those who had left or been expelled. It wasn't the first online community that dealt specifically with the Way - Trancenet had an ex Way community formed before it and I believe there were other small newsgroup discussions going on, at last I'd seen some, but Waydale was uniquely successful in attracting oldies and newbies alike and become a magnet reconnecting people who hadn't seen or talked to each other for years. For decades the greater community of those who had left or been kicked out of the Way for whatever reasons had never really been brought together into one place to tell their stories. Enter Paul Allen. He built a professional looking website front end and loaded up the discussion forum using EZ Board. You could register and participate anonymously so there were no fear tactics like the Way had used to smear and destroy reputations of people that disagreed with them. The spark caught and it grew and lit up, literally. Allen's strategy was very smart - he was legit and had his own life on the table with the lawsuit he had filed. He was also pretty stand up about the whole thing in that he didn't puke all over the internet with rants and raves or the kind of profane blathering that Martindale was known for and proud of. He had a case and he made it and invited others to share their own stories. He wasn't overly complicated either, it was pretty easy to understand where he was coming from. There were no guarantees that it would grow but it did. And it gave voice to a group of people who were now able to say what they had experienced, good or bad, and discuss and debate all of it with anyone to any extent they wished. There was a good share of flotsam and jetsam too but - and this was very new to ex Wayfers - it was possible to ask, question, challenge, and do it all in the "open" and each person could draw their own conclusions. It could get nasty, weird, childish, trite, even ignorant. At first I was a little sketchy about some of the stuff I read, it seemed pretty hateful. Then it sank in - for years the Way had sh it on anyone it wanted to and then told them - "taught" them from the Word - that they were supposed to just accept it and deal with it and "God would still bless them" for "following the Man of God", and did that over and over and over....uh, hell yes, there's going to be some heat coming back off them. I once had someone message me that "Paul Allen is off the Word! He shouldn't be doing a lawsuit, going outside the Church, he should settle this inside, with the leadership and believers!" I don't know how long I laughed after reading that but I did respond by asking them "And who do you think he could trust to honestly settle the matter? Craig?"......I never got an answer that I remember but uh, no. And yes, we don't want to be litigious over every hang nail but when it's serious and you're dealing with a group like the Way that makes it's own rules, answers to no external authority and refuses to deal with it unless drug into court, yeah, you use the courts. I wish you the best Bolshevik and a good life in this one and the next. You deserve it. We all do.

I listened to and spot checked some of his recording of 3-12-22. I don't know who his audience is or who he thinks he's talking to but apparently he's going to continue lecturing to his own navel if that's what it comes to. He still spends most of his time criticizing everyone else, others "distortions" and skewed logic. By the time he gets to talking about how "twisted" it is I can hear him snarling. I wonder if he still has 2 or 3 women on the side he screws, and if they think they're doing some great service to God when they bend over? What a sad sorry bag of gas. I pray for him but I wouldn't walk across the street to hear his personal regurgitations of PFAL. Steer clear! PEACE homies!

No offense, but we're not taking about the same thing. I don't have the energy to sort it out. I'm sure your life will continue to go well, so no worries, mine will too. Thanks for the time.

Hmmmm, that's a yes and no for me. I get that, sort of, in a way. It would be true in the process of learning, but not in knowing. There are things I want to be right about and entertaining alternatives won't serve my need. Once I know something and what I know is right as best I can see, that's good enough for me. In religion it gets kicked around because there's an assumption that no one knows "for sure" and even since we have so many people that believe differently but swear they know for sure it all goes to prove that no one knows for sure, so there's a perceived value to staying open minded, and willing to change - "after all", etc. Even within one's own beliefs there can be a means by which their source material can correct them when they get off target. But the process of learning has an end goal which is to know something. I might say I'll never know it all or will always be learning and willing to consider alternatives, but I would never do that without serious consideration, as far as the basic things "I know". I find in my experience, those who feel that way, even if they differ, allow for that rigidity - BECAUSE they themselves know what they know and learn to honor that state of being in others, as much as they allow it for themselves. There's only conflict when it comes to societal concerns, where it crosses over into others lives. Otherwise, outside of the impetus to help others if I can, why would I care what someone else "believes" if it has no affect on me or if the affect is in any way a good one, for me....? I don't want to correct others "on principle", just for the fun of it. Put it this way - My God tells me to help others in active, individual ways and part of that is to tell them about Jesus Christ. I want others to share what I have and have the future I believe I have, because I believe it's a good one that allows them to find their own space and shape their own lives with the Creator, like I have, and maybe even in ways they can in turn share with me, to my own benefit...so hey! it's a win win. Or not, if someone doesn't I have to accept that. In America today we have trouble living that way, I know it can be a challenge for me at times and others too it seems, but I do think the earliest conception of our governance was trying to avoid a social system that won't allow you to rise up or out of your "place", but to create a new opportunity to carve out a space for individual freedoms. Course that didn't apply to slaves but - yeah, it was a start. I am thankful to God for the lives of those upon whom this great vision of a country was built yet who were not allowed to participate in it's promise, who died in a foreign land and under a different sky than they'd been born to - I can't imagine what despair must have filled their hearts in the acceptance they lived in that allowed them to survive another day - for what? Talk about having hope. Here I am today, I can only be the me I am and do what I can. And there are some things I am very rigid about, and that I don't believe I'm wrong about and that I won't change my mind about, barring a big smack on the head I can't miss. If I stand before a God someday who tells me I was wrong, what will I have to say other than hey, I thought that's what You meant, I'm glad to change my mind if I can still get on the boat going out. If that somehow condemns me for eternity, so be it. I can't help but think there will be a level of satisfaction just knowing - finally, for sure - the truth. In the meantime, I'm pretty tenacious about my beliefs. If not sooner, see you there!

Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it. I came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking. Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted. Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid.

Where do "euphemisms" come into this, not clear on what you mean by that. If it was when I wrote "I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would."... I meant what I said. I think the factual truth is communicated completely in that phrase of "it sounds about right". It does, to me. There are a vast number of people who over the years have come through the Way and who deserve a civil engagement if possible. That's the way I live. I do talk to people about those years and events - (like most of the stuff you don't think the "young bucks" of an earlier era knew, I knew because VPW talked about many of those things, he talked quite a bit about those things when he came out to California the first couple times. I was close to Jim Doop who I spoke with a lot about what he was doing with the Way) - and when I do I inform my discussions today with that kind of information and insight. Others may disagree. Fine. I speak first for what I know first hand and try to be careful about what I sift through of everything else. Now, while I do care about the people, I don't have a dog in the game there, no relatives or associates still involved in the Way in any capacity and if anyone there thinks badly of me, fine, I don't care about that - it just proves their lack of intelligence, far as I'm concerned. Anyone still there or involved with them counters and negates the weight and value of their opinion by that very involvement so it's kind of a wash - why would I get too concerned about the opinion of people I don't think highly of? Doesn't make sense. I know some people who are, they're happy and I respect their decision in certain cases because I think for them it provides a level of support they benefit from. And they know that while my resources are limited, they're only a call away from help if they needed it - something I don't extend to everyone or lightly when I do because I mean it. Anyway, luceat lux tua!

No idea, far as answers. It's been pete and repeat there since Day One, with some occasional bright lights surfacing. A lot of what the Way did with VPW's direction was to adopt and re label and re design existing programs and systems. He'd been exposed to the liberal Protestant meta physical teachings and efforts by Glen Clark, Mosley, Daily and others, the "Ashrams", all of that. He talked a lot about that in the 60's and early 70's that I heard from him. He didn't really connect the "Jesus People" movement on the West Coast to that, in a practical way though, he never spoke of the doctrinal or theological underpinnings, at least that I heard. Despite wanting to be a Big Thinker he lacked a methodology to synthesize ideas, he was a tad clumsy in that regard and more inclined to assemble, copy and rename. So where there were Glenn Clark and his "Camp Farthest Out" and retreats, VPW called his getaways "Advances" which I think was a name already getting used, I forget who else might have been using it - "renewal" was a favored term too, nothing wrong with any of them I guess but my point is that VPW tended to do pretty much what others had or were doing and he just renamed them and made them out to be his own ideas. The sense of ownership that comes with things we come up with and work to accomplish that may not be actually "new" aside, it seemed he knew exactly what he was doing in that regard. So - what the Way is doing by building loosely on their own past and using that is probably a combination of a sense of pursuing a thread of godliness in their past and doing what they know how to do. Even at my kindest I'd have to say the Way was never led by the brightest bulbs. Anyone with education, talent and motivation was expected to put on the nametag and move the program he wanted to put in place. Anyone with education, talent and motivation either didn't stay or was booted out at some point, leaving the Most Average of the Average to mind the store. Others had the mindset of survival so they kept on for the 3 hots and the cot. I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would.

Speaking of which - 9 years ago Pericarditis got me into Emergency, where I then had a "cardiac event" on the table where they were testing me. At the time I just knew I had an increasing feeling like a knife was being churned in my chest and it was during them trying to diagnose the pain when the heart attack occurred and they discovered I had 3 badly clogged arteries including one that was pretty much shut down to a trickle I guess. Par for the course - a triple bypass was planned. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, Peri-c is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Both have been seen in children, more young males that others, after the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines. Symptoms can occur a few days after the vaccination and with treatment recovery is full and within a few days. Add "mileage may vary" to that, I'm sure. This is of course a huge issue but it doesn't appear to be widespread at all. Now - I'm not a young male but even at my age and history, there's a concern - fortunately I didn't get any actual heart muscle damage when I had my infection and "event", and my heart even at 62 held up very well. The advice to me for Moderna's 2 dose and boosters has been I'm still in a very low risk group so the vaccine is worth it. Close monitoring of health after is important though, and I've done fine and nothing like heart-chest pain symptoms occurred. (and once you've been through it you know the difference between it and "heartburn". I wouldn't advise a child to NOT get the vaccinations due to that risk specifically. Both my grandchildren have tested positive after exposures and had no demonstrable symptoms. They haven't been vaccinated yet, but likely will be at some point, if all these mandates continue. (for the record I'm "pro choice", and have exercised my choice to be vaccinated and get the booster - but I'm not in a user group that is as active in public circles as a lot of the population but I can understand the concerns there on all sides, I think) On average as previously stated, I suggest humans currently residing on the planet Earth consider vaccinations. A bigger issue in all this comes to mind too - overall health care and access to it. I have immediate access to a health care system, doctors, nurses, medical advice, pharmacies, etc. I may not "get in" immediately or faster than anyone else but I have coverage that I can use and it covers what I need. I also have had access to a low impacted supply chain so scheduling vac's and getting in has been easy compared to some places. Millions aren't and don't though - the so called "free" vaccinations aren't really, and there's little "free" wrap around health care to monitor and take care of adverse side affects or issues in case someone DOES have an issue and doesn't have any health plan....We like to describe ourselves as the wealthiest, most industrious and creative nation in history. There is a basic level of health care that we can extend to citizens here and I'd be willing to extend that in emergency services to those who are here illegally, and being processed through our system of citizenship whether going in or out. Simply put, the severely ill and injured are going to end up in our emergency room/clinic system anyway - some provision of preventive and general health care and education would seem to be in everyone's interests. (I know there are a lot of exceptions, open holes to abuse and costs to doing any of that, I just don't want to lead with exceptions, I'd rather plan for a majority)

Sounds good. I go in spurts. It's fun to play with, I may end up doing mostly muffins and biscuits and not so much loaves, with the occasional pancake or waffle mix.

I dont care what you do, on a certain level. On another I care a lot. Either way I’d prefer to make my own decisions. If I get to, so do you. So when I’m King Dog of the Universe and running things we’ll get along great. Ive managed to live as I see fit without having any issues. The week California closed down last year I drove an RV for 10 hours on a major freeway, got gas, food, used rest rooms, and visited family for a week in another city in another county. No problems at all. I slipped the stupid little mask on when I was in public places gassing up, and sanitized as I went. Easy. 99% of the trip I didn’t wear a mask but in those few situations where I knew someone would have a shit fit if I didn’t I did. The whole thing is such a minor concern to me, either way, I refuse to get in a twist, I just try to do the sensible thing snd get on with what I’m really trying to do.

It came out light, airy, thin crust. Still working on the rise but this tastes really good.

My wif' and I both have gotten the Moderna Vax, both doses. No real side effects, kind of a hit of floozy feelings for a few hours after the second one, but that was it. We both got the Booster for it, same thing, no biggie. I get flu shots every year for years now, I've always been pretty susceptible to colds and flu and those vaccinations helped a lot since I started. I had a serious round of Pneumonia in the 90's, I got within 48 hours of making hand puppets with Jim Hanson, I waited so long to drag my ass into Emergency. I've been careful since. All of those things aren't the same kinds of things but in my lifestyle they're related and connected, so I treat them seriously as part of the same health concerns. For years I've used a disinfectant when I go in and out of public shopping stores, the big box ones, "Wal Mart", all those. I'm careful about sneezing into a kleenex and avoiding people when they're snorting and sneezing all over the place in public, using doors, handles, knobs, picking thing up in public places, etc. It's all gross, seeing how many people treat personal hygiene. So I was in this whole clean thing long before this virus stuff started and frankly I don't mind the world being a little cleaner out there. People that want to tell me I don' need to do that, don't get vaxed, I shouldn't do that, am wrong for doing that, can - how does it go in the original greek...? they can get fukked. Seriously, if I had a buck for every self proclaimed expert telling me what to do I'd have a barrel of bucks. I have no lack of expert sure fire opinion either way I want to go. I've read up on what's going on as much as I feel the need to, I see the different sides to the issues, blah blah blah. I prefer to treat all of this as an individual's choice. That's how I treat it. I don't have all the answers and I don't expect others to either. I'm not going to hate someone because they don't want to get a vaccine or because they get one or because they're not sure. If I can help with my own incredibly insightful expert opinion I'd suggest - see a doctor, make sure of any exceptional conditions you might have that would make a difference and then go with the best you know and sure, get vaccinated. But if you don't, that's fine too, in my world. I know that's not how the government is handling it across the country and it sucks and is difficult for everyone whether we're for this or against that or whatever. But I try to take the high road as much as possible and do what I can to help others with what they need and this is the best I know to do now. PEACE!

Just pulled this out of the oven tonight. I started with my usual proofing period but at about 7 hours it had risen some but not a lot. So I did a second knead, about 6 -7 folds and reshaped it and then let it proof in the baking pan for about 4 1/2 hours - and it really rose that second time. EVOO across the top, sprinkled some salt, and put it in a preheated oven at 350 degrees, 30 minutes. At 20 minutes I checked it and it had risen up into a nice round top. I sprinkled some cheese across the top. It came out feeling really light and airy, it's cooling, so we'll see when I cut it.

So here we are a year or so later.... I stopped for the summer, this year, too hot. And I'm finding sourdough does a lot better for me in the winter. I just got a new batch of starter going, the old was in the back of the fridge and probably would have worked eventually ("c'mon! it's a strong starter, it wants to bake!...3 -2 - 1...CLEAR!!! again! charging.....!!!") but I just started over. 2 tblspoons white flour, squirt of water, stir, wait, repeat, build it up, etc. More flour, water, stir and poke, wait. Etc. I end up moving it from a small starter jar to a bigger glass jar and adding a 1/2 cup of flour at a time so as it rises it ends up 2, 3, 4 cups of starter, at least. What I've learned - the starter I've worked with at times is too thin and the chemical process, gas, will bubble but the bubbles just rise to the top and escape. That kind of starter mix doesn't proof and rise at a big enough rate to make a big porous tasty loaf of bread (but it will come out denser, which may be what someone wants). For more classic sourdough I found it needs to be thicker than I usually thought it should be. When the early starter is thicker the bubbling occurs inside the starter dough but "stays inside", pushing the starter dough up and out. Lots of bubbles show at the top surface too - that's the starter "rising" and being active. Starter in that early fermenting stage should be increasing in actual size in the jar container, even doubling in size. Mines looks like a big porous sponge when it's peaking. At that point I take a 1/4 - 1/2 cup of starter, add a little water and thin it out for making the dough ball and mix with my flour and make my loaf. I add a teaspoon of salt at most and whatever I want to go in if I do - like some garlic or dried herbs, etc. Mostly I don't put a lot in it though. I do a not-so-much-knead kneading and I only do it once, for about 3 - 4 minutes to get it mixed into the classic 'ball' and fold it over and into an oval loaf shape. I then let it rise for 8 hours or so directly in the baking loaf pan, pre greased, that it will bake in, once, I haven't been taking it out and refolding and doing a second rise. I go for about a 1 - 1.5 lb loaf, not that big, and muffins I make in standard cupcake trays, 6 to a tray. They bake at 350 edges for 25 - 35 minutes. I start checking at 25 minutes. I do the score cut at the top and might brush some oil or butter on top, sprinkle salt, etc. Nothing fancy. What makes it fly when it does, is getting that initial starter into a mixture where I can stir it with my fork (I took an old table fork and cut out the two center tines, so I have a two pronged fork thingie, works great) and it sort of pulls a little as I stir - not soupy or like pancake mix, and not so thick it balls up, but mid way, almost like fudge. My starter's been blowing up and really active, so I'm getting decent loaves. No pix, but so far so good. I call it my "No Stress-EZ Sourdough Bread" recipe.

You reminded me of something in relation to this whole topic, maybe, I think - (and I liked that Love Winner-Chicken Dinner book too)....hold on, story time - I was once interviewed by HR at a company I worked for regarding a complaint two employees had made against another employee, who was the manager of both of them and up a link in the food chain, mine also. I knew and had worked with all involved and in fact had been in teams managed by both. I did have some specific insight into the complaint and a first hand opinion of it's validity. So they asked me a series of questions in a phone interview about it all and I was very honest in my feedback and the understanding I had, which supported the view of those making the complaint. The last question I was asked was - did I think the person getting the complaint "could change"......I answered in 2 parts - 1. I can't speak to that, I think that's outside my ability to judge even from a professional standpoint ... and 2. Realistically, "But".....based on my experience with that specific person - no, they likely will not, not without some intervention and guidance...why expect different results if the person has no reason to change, might not see any advantage to changing, and unless a path to change is laid out and agreed to...? So there's some responsibility in judgment - if I were to say someone HAD to change, if there a path forward? Is there a penalty component to it? Etc. Etc. When I think of real people and real incidents and things done and the effect it all has on everyone, past events are the easiest - and the hardest - to work through - and EVERYthing is past. EVERYone can have a different perspective and viewpoint of the same event in the past and everyone does, even when it's "the same". It's the nature of reality, as the individual living it understands it to be. But - we can come to an agreement on it. Like the example of Charles Manson - I could get my Armchair PsychoAnalyst Certificate renewed every year doing a paper on why HE was a nut case. But that's easy and made all the easier because the entire case history of Manson is - over. He's dead. I'm sifting through the grains of facts in a reality that are like the pixels in a multi million color scan, they can be completely laid out and searched both for what and where they are but also for what they mean in an ongoing PRESENT REALITY. Anyway, on a practical level I can say with 100 per cent confidence and without the slightest doubt, and with all the gravitas it deserves - V P Weirwille isn't going to change. He's dead. Wha that meant, means and the effects in an ongoing experience with those of us hmmm, affected by him and what he did, well that will continue as long as there's people who care, wind blows and grass grows. Me, I change all the time, and take my word for it - always for the better. Smarter, faster, better, older, wiser. You can take my word for it. : )

I can't speak to his legacy, but my thoughts and prayers are with his family and those close to him. I have read that he died with family close by and in their loving regard. May that be true for all of us. https://youtu.be/85_7lEwyu5U

I'm not sure what that's all about, so perhaps is someone else's memory of something else. There may have been something that went on before the Corps course offerings, perhaps that was even what brought Maize into the picture, although his history with PFAL wasn't a secret to at that time. The Dale Carnegie courses I received taught by Bill Maize were when he was a licensed/certified to instruct Carnegie courses in a territory in Ohio where he could offer the Carnegie courses as a Carnegie instructor. None of the materials or the class in toto were relabeled Wayfer versions under different names and presenters, and we got copies of the Carnegie books and materials. (my wife recently crossed professional paths with an educational/trade organization that offers some current work by the Carnegie group and I found a copy of a small Carnegie Booklet we still have from 1973, that she had signed her name inside of, and it gave them quite a chuckle to hear that) I understood Bill's courses on Public Speaking and Sales Techniques were based fully on his material which was based of course on the original books and material of Carnegie. It began with the First Corps and were offered in each Corps thereafter, to the 4th I was in. I believe it was offered then to at least the 5th and "Family Corps" at the Way Nash, under Bill's teaching but I wasn't in the "residence" program at that time, I was on staff in the first iteration of the "interim" year. It may have then been offered after in whatever forms, but I wasn't there attending any of them so can't say what they did first hand. Whatever financial arrangements the Way had with Bill Maize I don't know, his expenses were likely covered and he probably received a fee or honorarium of some sort per student, but he may have also done it gratis or at a reduced fee. Guys like John Somerville who began TFI (The Total Fitness Institute) in the 70's arranged with VPW to have Way Corps come in for outdoor climbing, survival and "leadership" training classes and he received a fee for each Corps person in the early groups that went to help with expenses (he told us when the 4th Corps had the option to go) and he also got at least a day or so of work/labor out of each person to help doing odd chores and tasks for building his camp and cabin, although it was a pretty disorganized affair at times that I was there over two weeks. I mention that to say that over the years VPW cut arrangements with lots of people to barter/trade, that I know and there's probably many others too I'm not, of course. But with Bill Maize it was a straightforward class he taught on prem, one night a week over several weeks, with exercises and assignments we were required to complete successfully. I remember this even more specifically because one of my wife's speeches/presentations was selected to be included in a Sunday Night Service, it was about 5 minutes I believe and was one of two that were picked that week that exemplified the stuff we were learning. She even remembers that to this day. Wuddelse - so, Maize's courses with us weren't secret or anything remotely clandestine. The finances weren't an additional fee for the Corps as we paid tuition/sponsorship to be in the live/work program as it was outlined that year, and whatever Bill and VPW had arranged was between them.

Never heard of that, where'd you become aware of that? It may have been after they opened Emporia, and/or after Bill Maize taught the classes at the Way Nash. His son was also a certified Carnegie instructor and I believe Bill Sr's territory continued through to his son. There wasn't any such conflict with the material that Bill Maize taught. I've worked with other licensed/certified instructors of licensed course work who customized courses for companies and developed offerings for them.

It's kind of an anachronism now but lest I forget Corps training (by and around the 4th Corps) included a sales course and a public speaking course, both taught by Bill Maize. Bill was a certified Dale Carnegie instructor, a PFAL grad and taught the Carnegie material with a specific eye on what we were doing which included teaching, witnessing and of course, signing people up for PFAL. Over time I think Bill's teaching and overall approach were excellent and have held up. I've continued my education in general business and some specific technical fields, completed 100's of hours of CE - continuing education - to increase and refresh my skills and knowledge, facilitated 100's more in my career work and specialized at times in training others in topics like Workflows & Analysis and UXP testing (user experience) related to client-side application development. Plus I've got 1000's of hours of public speaking under my belt teaching on the Bible, Christianity, "sermonizing" and otherwise pontificating on any number of related topics and as a musician taught music and performed all my life (less so these last 30 years or so). For my time and money, Bill Maize taught material that I've used over and over throughout the years and been able to build on. At one time I did fairly well in sales related fields and jobs and the Carnegie concepts served me as did many of the specific methods when they were reapplied and tailored to other settings. For me the combination of Sales and Public Speaking gave me something I think others might have ignored - an approach to communicating with others that helped me learn about others and understand them. The "sales" part for me was defined immediately by the statement we learned - "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....so I took the idea of "selling something" through manipulation off the table....I could see that even the most needy person would only go along with something they didn't really want for so long and by continuing expose themselves to possible damage....anything close to full valid acceptance requires more than just accommodating a weakness or need with promises.... And for many the promise of a group of people who suddenly liked you or at the least put up with you, wanted you to hang with them and who were interested in you and what you did and what you needed was pretty heady stuff. And that alone can be a healing balm, to be accepted for who you are - and in Christian thinking for who God wants you to be, but without the the emotional and physical debt of guilt, judgment and condemnation. Free - "free at last!" to be ourselves in God's creation. The Carnegie material is still represented and offered in varying formats by many training and trade groups and the content is refreshed of course. For me years ago, was it really necessary? No, not really. Any caring person willing to take the time to meet others and get to know them with the intent to help them with their friendship and what they know will do most of the important stuff - invest their time, listen, be patient, try to understand, etc. etc. BUT it did something very important for me personally, gave me time and methods to help me learn to communicate and express myself better with others, and start that lifelong journey of doing so. Where all this went south IMO was taking any of it and pushing it into some pre-fab format of quotas and measurements to "get people in the Class".....even if it's vacuums there's always going to be a report of "how many did you sell" but from the human side the report will really say "how many people were helped with the products"?..... Even writing this it sickens me to remember sitting with some of the fk-tard "leaders" sitting on someone else's couch in their home drinking their coffee and yelling at them for not "getting enough signups to start a CLASS!!!!" Sad. But it's all blue skies and berry pies today! PTL! Free!!! Free at last!!!!

Yes, there was plenty of that. For me it boiled down to this - Just as salvation was personal for me it will be personal for others. It can't be mass produced, we're all a crowd of "one's Jesus is "the way", described as the door, the gate, the means by which... Like a door, everyone can't go through at once, all the pushing and shoving in the world will only create a bottleneck. Everyone goes through singly and then everyone can get through. And in that way there's plenty of access, even as we do find ourselves in the arc of a timeline. Time is of the essence but it doesn't control the rules or God's intentions and plan. It's personal, individual - me and Jesus Christ, us and God.

In the Way of the late 60's, 70's witnessing was a mixed bag of helping people, making friends, sharing and teaching what the Bible says and specifically sharing "salvation through Christ". The primary tool of choice for teaching the Bible was PFAL and The Way 'Nash was the "church" that wasn't a church but a teaching ministry providing the structural pinnings for fellowship, worship, and social life - but hold that thought.... PFAL was not intended to be a tool to "just" do that - it was intended to be a tool to teach "the accuracy of God's Word", specifically the array of Dr. Weirwille's critical need-to-know topics that were being "rightly divided" in PFAL. Many if not all of the fundamental creeds of Christian faith were redefined by this teaching - similar in face and look to some degree but fundamentally very different, to the degree that VPW didn't even want to call those who took PFAL "Christians", he socialized the term "Believers" into the Way's vernacular. His "students" BELIEVED, they lambano'd that stuff. (but it's smart to remember - the first "believers" to be called Christians were a Gentile congregation in Antioch, evangelized and taught by Paul and his team and according to VPW were probably taught much the same things and ways as he himself was doing..... VPW liked to say it was because they were always talking about the "Christ in them" and did a kind of word-mash to get the term Christian buuuut...yeah. Anyway, he balked at the term to distance himself from the great unwashed masses of non grads of PFAL and did so at great harm to any effort to actually help others, IMO.) So "witnessing" was essentially signing people up for PFAL classes. And I would argue it's not the worse time I ever spent in a metal chair, speaking for myself. PFAL establishes several things upfront - that the Bible needs to be viewed as a revelation from God, a product of inspired writing and expression. For the person who wants to know God and His intentions for mankind it is not just a book of myths and stories with a few parables thrown in. That with some rudimentary tools and guidelines (historical context, cultural context, language interpretation, chronology amongst others) the meaning of most of it can be understood, and much of that from reading it on face value. PFAL taught me that Jesus Christ once said He came to give life, "abundant" life, that life is beset by thieves who steal, kill and destroy - Christ came to give us Life, real life, and real Love. I learned about the spiritual gifts and "manifestations" and most importantly that God works and wills in us today no differently than He did when Christ was alive and His followers lived. I learned about prayer and the value of a strong Christian social life with real relationships. I learned about Grace, and Mercy, through what Christ did. I learned how loving and kind Jesus Christ was to nearly everyone He dealt with and that even those who wanted to kill him answered to a greater God, just as He did. Now - PFAL taught a lot of stuff and after a few times and some study, I pretty much "got it". It's not a hard set of materials to master. The subjects, the contents, could and will take a lifetime to learn and apply and grow in - and I'd contend that the purpose of what we're taught in the Bible New Testament isn't to make us lifelong students who must be incessantly reminded of what we've learned lest we forget - and sure we all need to be refreshed and reminded of things - but the intention is for us to live the LIFE that God gives us through Christ and insodoing - live. Learn, grow and enjoy. The best way to stay on track in our new life is to mmmm......live in it. I don't look at it and want to be more like it - I'm "it". I just need to remember to be the Me God has made me. Now then to the question of witnessing - for me it was 1. share the knowledge of who Christ is and what He means 2. share specifics of how God wants us to live and what that life means and looks like 3. Guide people to the Bible which is where they'll learn more about all this 4. Sign 'em up! for PFAL! As time went on I do think the goal of ONLY signing people up became part of the problem - yet even then all the years I was involved in the Way including the early years, the Corps and working there on Staff after, I was always compelled to HELP PEOPLE through my direct contact. Still and all, when I travelled with the Way the number one measure of success was the 'signed green card' - and unlike many of the more loud mouthed swaggering "leaders" in the Way who never left the comfort of a well organized meeting lectern or living room where they could pontificate and bloviate all night - I did sign up people for PFAL. LOTS of people and by traveling throughout the entire country, every major city and every place the Way had people large and small, over several years, I put my money where my mouth was and didn't just tell people what THEY should be doing and blaming them when they failed for not "BELIEVING BIG ENOUGH". My prayer is that in that effort they got enough of the love and learned what to do with it. It's been a long haul.