socks

Hey dawayback, see what sincerity does? : ))) As long as we're on the topic of prodigous genetic endowment, I feel compelled to say that, well, I'm gifted with a good set of genetics. Serious set going here. Not in a way I can discuss politely, but the ground does shake wherever I share. Really. Honest. Not just saying that. No kiddin'. I wish I could share it with everyone but it wouldn't be right. You'll just have to take my word on my set. ; ) Jesus, I'll dance before your throne, bring this heavenly sound to You alone This song within me Lord will bless your Holy Name (boz scaggs)

SWEET! I'm going to check this out tonight. Thanks Zix and Raph. I'd never seen this!!! baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Cool site, Raphael. They've got a page for "Memento", a favorite movie I've tried to dissect. That's hard to watch differently, it's backwards to start with! baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Cool! Me too, Pirate, loved that show. Catch the reruns on cable now and then. Nicole Kidman would be a great Sam. Elizabeth Montgomery, a total babe in the original. Will Ferrel as Darren...hmmm. Dunno. He'll be good but Jim Carey would be perfect. Dick York was a good actor, Carey kind of has the same look and body language. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

IMF77, I think the first time I heard the comments about Christianity/the Way it was along the lines of how the vast majority of Christian denominations and churches weren't really Christian at all because they typically taught JC was God, had no "accuracy" of the Word and didn't manifest tongues, so there was no proof anyway. From VPW's teaching standpoint, calling the Way a "Christian" ministry grated on him because of people's preconceptions and he didn't like the Way being put in the same breath with them. After all, he'd "chucked the whole thing". It would be a stretch IMO to say that he didn't consider the Way Ministry a Christian group, rather he felt the Way was the only REAL Christian group. His books and classes pretty much use the term with that subtext, remembering that as a genric reference it's what everybody else calls it so it's practical, but the years I was in, 68 - 89, the term was used carefully when he was alive and around. God forbid we grouped ourselves in to the mass of unwashed and unbelieving twads out there. The problem with documentation on how it evolved will be a little difficult but maybe not impossible. So many things were taught so many times, places and ways. Between SNS's, Sunday 10:30 fellowships, Corps nights and meetings, campus visits, meetings in the Way Woods, etc. etc. etc. A lot of the details for this kind of thing may or may not be on tape, archived at the Way Nash or in somebody's basement and in 1,000's of copies of handouts, syllabus notes and handwritten notes. It's a quandry, because the most reliable source for his stuff is printed books and recorded classes and tapes. But this attitude of disdain for organized religion and segregation from it wasn't dreamed up by an errant congregation. He just didn't talk about some of the stuff in public-public but it got out over time, mostly from the Way Corps that he taught it to. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Look out, EX10, don't step on it! :D--> Hmm, actually that felt kind of good. Ya Mo Be There, Dot. :)--> Jonny, I read an interesting definition recently for the terms "extrovert" and "introvert". It went, when faced with something going wrong an extrovert will think first "you did it". An introvert will think "I did it". It was saying it didn't have so much to do with how you act towards others but rather how you think of yourself in relation to others. Something I found in those who came to the Way over the years was that in general it was a fairly introspective group. People looking for answers and direction, meaning. There were lots of outgoing people, but people who were willing to sit down and listen to someone else tell them what things meant, people who wanted to learn and put the time in listening and thinking about what they heard. Not every type of person wants or likes to do that, certainly not for extended periods of time. Whether the definition holds water or not, I dunno but I think the idea reflects somewhat on many of us. We accepted the idea that our "believing" action could be the cause of every effect in the world. Everything that happened had a purpose and a cause and we, the people of the Way, were at the center of it. I've thought about that idea as a core idea in a belief system - not that we are part of a greater whole of interconnected parts with relationships, but that we are the cause of good and bad in the worlds in which we live because of how and what we think. That's a basic core teaching of the Way and VP that I've really had to examine. Given the law of believing, if someone acts in "good faith" and it causes you harm, it can be construed that you brought the harm to yourself. After all, "I meant well, I had no harm intended, maybe you're the one with the problem, seeing evil in my good". I do believe that this was a concept that VPW may have held to, that the actions of an individual could be acceptable and good if they "in their hearts" had no evil intent but meant good - even if it was in fact wrong. On that level, it's possible to do as you like as long as you like what you do. On the other hand, if the law of love always does that which is beneficial to the other person, you would never do anything that would potentially cause harm to that other person...even if it was "right", because that would make it "wrong". Love demands that we all serve the good of the other. "Greater love hath no man", etc. Under that scenario, there's no situation which would allow me to coerce or force my own "good" upon another. If a person were too weak to handle something I felt free to do, I would avoid doing it if it risked harming the other person. So, I have to ask myself, at what point did VPW decide that he wasn't responsible for the very likely scenario that his actions with women wouldn't risk hurting them? At what point was even the slightest possibility of hurt to them insignificant enough to act as he did? Closer to home, what would bring me or anyone to that point knowing what "the word" says? baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs) [This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:34.] [This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:36.]

"Sober" by Tool/Maynard James Keenan ------------------------------------ there's a shadow just behind me, shrouding every breath I take, making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me waiting like a stalking butler who upon the finger rests. murder now the path called "must we" just before the sun has come. Jesus, won't you f**king whistle something but the past and done? why can't we not be sober? I just want to start this over. why can't we drink forever? I just want to start things over. I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. trust in me and fall as well. I will find the center in you. I will chew it up and leave, I will work to elevate you just enough to bring you down trust me. Mother Mary won't you whisper something but what's past and done trust me. I want what I want ---------------------------------- This song reminds me of the sound of Death speaking through drugs when it's last call at the end of the line. Sorry if it's a downer. In performance it's, well, very weird. But Tool rips the ground up and pounds it back down with this one. Made to be played loud. Very loud. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

"Shannon" by Henry Gross ------------------------ Another day's at end Mama says she's tired again No one can even begin to tell her I hardly know what to say But maybe it's better that way If poppa were here I'm sure he'd tell her Shannon is gone I heard She's drifting out to sea She always loved to swim away Maybe she'll find an island With a shaded tree Just like the one in our backyard Mama tries hard to pretend That things will get better again Somehow she's keepin' it all inside her But finally the tears fill our eyes And I know that somewhere tonight She knows how much we really miss her Shannon is gone I heard She's drifting out to sea She always loved to swim away Maybe she'll find an island With a shaded tree Just like the one in our back yard Ah.... Just like the one in our back yard Ah.... (Henry was a founding member of Sha Na Na, did rock 'n' roll stuff, toured with the Beach Boys and this song was about Carl Wilson's...dog. So I guess it's a dead dog song. :(--> Beautiful tune in it's way.) We had so many good times and some bad. We shared the happiness and we shared the sad. We suffered all All the miseries. Back when I had you girl, and you had me... (boz scaggs)

P.S. I never hit Trancenet till it was over and a read only site, but when I ran across WayDale it really did start to pull things together for me that I'd suspected might exist but only in theory after leaving. It was like a slow brew process. I know some people think your butt will fall off or something if you visit GS. Really folks, it won't. I've got lots of butt left, trust me. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Indeed, fine people. I wrestled with a number of things after we left, and it didn't really hit me right away. Then it did - Mr. VPW would never be allowed to pastor, teach, or function in a trusted position anywhere else with all of this going on, there'd be inquiry, he'd be confronted, reproved, taught, corrected and if that didn't work whatever else did to protect people. If it were even just your good ol' garden variety friendly corporate takeover, he and all the rest closely associated with him would be sacked and retired out. Out with the old, in with something new or at least different. It doesn't mean anything good or bad ever did or didn't come out of the Way, to me. Good can come out of the worst situations as well as the best. With the Way, the well is tainted, put up a "beware" sign and go somewhere else. This may sound like I'm a creep, but it seems to me that anyone willing to fully accept and pass on all of this abuse under the banner of "we all sin, none are perfect, at least zabba zabba zabba" have low standards. If we're all born in sin we will all likely do some nasty things in our lives if we haven't already. But Paul gives some hefty qualifications for a person who wants to be recognized as a person of service to the church and work for The Pastor, someone who has shown themselves faithful. It's not for people who can't keep their pants zipped or who have serious problems following the teachings of Christ. That's just the way it is I believe and there's no tongue clucking condemnation to anyone who doesn't cut it. If you don't, step down, step out, whatever but you can't be allowed to work in that capacity. When I look back to even the earliest years I was in the Way, I see there were good people throughout, faith, good times, hard work. When you have that kind of environment, good can come out of it. The fact that VP pi$$ed his part away doesn't mean the Party stopped. It was going on around him all the time. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Aww, thanks y'all. :o--> glad you like 'em Oaks! baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Aww, thanks y'all. :o--> glad you like 'em Oaks! baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

I feel the earth moooove Under my feet. I feel the sky tumblin' down, A-Tumblin' down. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

WG that reminded me of this - driving back from Emporia, KS one winter, driving a truck loaded with Way Productions eq, stage stuff and assorted crap, I mean stuff. Driving out to Emp the snowstorm was one of the worst on record, we inched along, I think it took about 26 hours to get there from New Knoxvile. But we did. We called ahead. I think the first thing I heard was "you're LATE!" And these were my buds. Hey, half the loads on the road didn't even drive thru the night at all. But we're all dix at one time or another I guess. Anyway, we do the doo and pack up Sunday night and on the way back the storm started up again full force - we'd had no sleep in about 4-5 days and it was early morning coming out of Kansas so we had to pull over and get more coffee. We inch back up the on ramp to get back on and figure, screw it, and pull off to the side behind another truck to take a nap for "just a few minutes".Zzzzzz. Next thing I know, BB's grabbing my shoulder, "Wake up, we gotta go!" chugging coffee now, we're inching back up on to the lane ahead, and it's snowing hard still. He turns to me and says "Man I just had the weirdest dream! We were sitting in the snow in the truck and got hit, a truck just slammed in to us!" We're getting some steam now, 20 mph or so and suddenly there's all this metal scrinching and brakes grinding behind us, we're brushing off the rear view mirrors and there behind us coming up strong was an 18 wheeler jack knifing and carving up snow in front of it, I mean it was spraying. It slid right through the spot we'd been parked in and landed upright believe it or not. So getting out of the way was good for us and that driver. Cooooool. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Cool story, WG! It's weird isn't it, how that happened? Of all the things that led to that moment and then all the things that you could have done, you did that. Boink. Sweet. : ) baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Hopefull sed :I don't know what happened to Mike when he had his OLG epiphany but it reminds me of when you are dreaming and you wake suddenly thinking you have found the key to the universe and you write it down and in the morning you read what you scribbled at 3 am and it says something like, "eat more ice cream and play blackjack for a living." :D--> :D--> :D--> Oh, you're read my stuff before!!! :D--> Sorry, just had to comment, that seemed too good to pass up. I'm back to pre-planning a thread on Threads, which I think I'm going to call "The Key to Life is Having One Good Pair of Comfortable Shoes". :D--> Stay tuned, it'll set you free. well just look at that girl with the light comin' up in her eyes, she's got to be somebody's baby, she's so fine.... (jackson brown)

Coinkidinks - Mosh Man. Best one I remember is one night long ago a bunch of us were driving off to, you guessed it, a class. We had to stop to get gas and use the rest rooms. I was driving and got out of the car while the gang released with boldness. :D--> I looked under the car and peeked around and lo there was a steady drip of something under the back of the car. The gas tank and there was small, slow, but steady leak. I reached under and felt for the hole and smelled it. Yep, petrol. We asked the guy in the garage what we could do. He went to the sink and got a bar of soap and said "get under there and dry it off really quick and rub this around that hole, it'll plug it". I did, and it did. He let me keep the soap just in case. We got it repaired the next day. (I still carry a bar of soap in my tool kit in every car I've ever owned, just in case. Plus, I can always be clean. :P--> ) The coinkidink part of it was that I had no idea why I got out of the car and looked under there. The leak must have just happened on that drive and it wasn't all that big at the time. I didn't smell gas, other than what was coming out of the rest rooms. I just did it and afterwards everyone asked how I knew it was leaky. "Revelation???" Frankly, I had no idea and still don't. I just did it, with almost no thought. Side note: "socks" is not synonomous with "mechanic". I did the guy thing under the hood with great flourish, but only knew the parts of any car if I'd had to change them out. :D--> Today I am of course a licensed Dude-Man of the Car and able to change out all kinds of things. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Piece of a sidebar to a tangent that may be relevant or not... IMO how anyone views VPW (or anyone else who attempts to function as a pastor, teacher, overseer, etc. to the church) has to include the overall standards for that kind of work and those kinds of "jobs". I think Timothy was referenced above and those things that Paul told Timothy would certainly apply. Why did he tell him...because as time went on and the church grew there would be increased need for service and help to the followers of Jesus Christ, of all kinds. Well, here we are, perhaps much further down the line than Paul saw, but nevertheless the standards of Timothy are applicable. (as well as so other things too, of course). VPW, like so many others, was self-employed. He started his own church, organization, ministry whatever you want to call it. He hung out his shingle and opened for business. How that organization was set up was determined him. The whole concept of the Board of Trustees as a governing body for the Way was supported by him. Yes, there were "leaders" meetings up the ying yang for region, limb, area, department coordinators held by him, but anyone who ever attended any of those knows that the doctrinal direction of the Way wasn't determined by the concensus of that group. Direction was very well crafted to support the overall themes and interests set forth by the prez of the Way. Right or wrong, that's the way it was, with the "Way Tree" system as the primary means to communicate. Point - nothing was set up within the Way to collect, evaluate or assess the performance of the President in detail. No performance criteria, other than "what the Word says", and no means of redress if it was felt that the "Word" wasn't being reflected properly in performance unless you want to count writing him personally - no one else knows and there's nothing requiring VP to respond - or publically discussing it with him, to which he could simply dismiss you or deface the validity of your claims in other ways. Short version - One man, one Boss, Answerable to No One, other than his brother, his closest supporter, and uh, God. This experience in the Way taught me that's not a good way to do things. Within the constraints of anyone's own authority it's always possible to cover up our own mistakes or excuse our own behavior. The more open things are, through both personal accountability and through processes, the more our behavior can be honestly evaluated. And look at the benefit! Perhaps VPW would have ended his endeavors in a more constructive and dynamic note than where he did. I think anyone can see that the qualifications to serve the church in a trusted, offical capacity requires above average tenacity, honesty and meekness. Without those things it's a meat grinder of a world of hurt. It would be hard to see VPW in any other light than someone who needed the kind of help the church itself can provide. By shielding himself from that, he suffered and others did too. Getting up close and personal with the things of God is an honor and a privilege. When that's forgotten and abused, your day will go very, very dark indeed. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Hope, yeah, you're right. The whole ECU men's "Way Home". Hadn't thought of that for awhile. That was some Prime Beef coming out of there. Randy A, great guy! The West coast had the Anti-Version I think. VP was bound and determined to get California past The Great Split, but it never really happened IMO. I hear ya. What to do when we grow up? :D--> I've been working on a Communications degree, I think I have enough credits, classes and "life's experience" portfolio credits to be a Doctor of All Fluff 'n' Stuff. :P--> Raising our kids and having families that aren't little Wayfer Units prepping for WOW, Corps, and a lifetime of assignments...now THAT'S a victory. You made me think though, way back when, my first "job" of sorts when I was about 18 was working in a data processing installation on the graveyard shift, learning "bursting" of forms while I took computer classes, operator stuff, started Fortran. I cut my hair, and had the classic "day job" while I played nights. The hair grew back, I left after a couple years. Lo 'n' behold in '92 I walked into a job, graveyard shift, in a data processing department with a company I'm still at and one of the first things I cross trained in was - bursting! Dammed if the machinery looked familiar. It was weird but gratifying in a way. I've moved around quite a bit since then in the company. Talk about "starting over" vibes. I just dug in. But you KNOW the thing I emphasize to my kids is...get your degree. Experiment, look around, try stuff, take a break if you want, but focus and work on the education now. well i'm a space cowboy bet your weren't ready for that i'm a space cowboy i'm sure you know where it's at, yeah yeah yeah (steve miller) [This message was edited by socks on December 28, 2003 at 1:25.]

SRTS, leftovers ROCK! The Wif' is doing her magic right now in the kitchen with some. We went simple, had a turkey breast, crock potted, with simple accessories like stuffing on the side. Put the turkey breast in in the morning, add a cup of white wine, bunch of cracked garlic cloves, and some spices. Let fill the house with good smells all day. Carve it up. Everything you want, nothing you don't. Plenty for raiding later. We're not huge eaters although we are black-belt snackers so this is a good solution. The kids had made a dent in them too. :)--> baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Oh geez. I thought this was the thread about clothes shopping, daddio. --> Never mind. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Hope, VP was a Walking Contradiction in many ways. He clearly articulated that to do anything at all, a person needed to go in the Way Corps and get the training, etc. to "really" learn how to stand, etc. He pushed some people to go in he wanted there, others he didn't. If you had something going for you like an education or money or an influential family all the better. If not, he often expressed an attitude like "well, you're not doing anything worthwhile anyway, you should", yada yada yada. He was always "on", always promoting and selling some aspect of the Way. He was a good example of what he wanted the Corps to be, able to go forth in areas of concern, interest and need and sell. I think I've mentioned before we were thinking of going in to the Peace Corps before the Way came along. When everyone was taking one of the first PFAL classes out here, we were taking a Pottery class we'd signed up for together and we didn't want to miss the last few sessions so we waited for the next one. :D--> I think the last class I took before dropping out and dropping in was a computer class, and figure this was 68, 69. Which is right where I picked up again a couple years after moving back out West. :P--> baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

What be dat, Paw? :)--> baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs)

Thank you, Lady Linda! Happy Merry Christmas and a Big Fat Joyful HO HO to you and to everyone! Best wishes and be careful out there if you're travelling! May your gatherings be sumptuous and your exchanges heartfelt. shower the people you love with love show them the way that you feel.... (james taylor)

It sounds like an honest question, JT. I'm just not sure what you're trying to find out. If the criteria is me and only me as the first hand witness, yes, yes yes I've seen and/or experienced many, lots, quite a few, a bunch. Last month I had a serious problem at work I was working on, a program I'm writing and I was stuck at certain points. I woke up one morning and a section of code was in my vision, right in front of me. Bingo. I knew immediately that was the problem and it proved to be so. Very much like finding a needle in a haystack. I'm very sure that was the spirit of God telling me what was wrong. Earlier this year I was talking to a friend, someone I don't know well but see now and then. She was having a bad day and I put my hand on her shoulder. A series of events ran through my mind and I saw her in them. They turned out to be what she was dealing with. The final event was something yet to happen and I made a suggestion as to how she might handle the whole thing. It happend the way I saw it. I can think of quite a few others over the years, including the whole period that coincided with my involvment in the Way. I don't know if they're "big" enough for what you're looking for though. An auto accident, broken rib and internal bleeding. I was prayed for and the injuries were healed within minutes. I felt it inside as it occured. Do they happen? As far as my own experience goes I'd have to say yes, and they're not limited by the times or circumstances. As far as my own experience goes they just happen when they do. While it may smack of old Wayfer talk, there are certain times when I know "inside" to do something or say something, or know about something and am able to participate in what's unfolding. From my standpoint, it's already happening and underway and I'm just observing it, although I guess it might appear at times when these kinds of things happen that "I'm" calling it. I'm just really not sure that's what's happening. At times I guess those involved might call it a miracle or something of that nature. To me, it's a normal part of my faith. I don't really know why others don't, I don't really think about it that way. I assume there's always a high possibility that something extraordinary can happen at any time. After all, "He's God." Maybe they're not miracles at all, but if the outcome's good, I'm happy to have seen it. baby's calling me home, she keeps on callin' me home.... (boz scaggs) [This message was edited by socks on December 22, 2003 at 22:08.]