socks

Rasc, you may be right. There probably are people who would like anyone who wants to beef about the Way's history to pipe down so as to allow for the continuation of what they consider to be it's good side, the teaching stuff that they want to continue in, the traditions they like and think are right. The less emphasis put on the bad stuff the easier it is to go about rebuilding what was lost for them, the basic lifestyle and teachings they want to keep. And some people just want to move on from whatever happened to or around them and deal with their lives as they are now. That's a choice a person has every right to make. Plus I have to remember not everyone experienced the same things. I think it says something about the people who came through the Way that some of them, who never really had a bad thing happen to them, seek to understand what may have been going on in a broader perspective than their own. That's pretty stand up if you ask me. But overall I don't see that "pipe down, you're scaring the new people at fellowship" attitude here on GS. Geek? I doubt it, he just doesn't come off to me that way. Nor Catcup, who periodically rips the Way a new one if she deems it appropriate to the topic at hand. :D--> People have something to offer so they offer it. This is a place where you can do that. So people do that. I have no doubt there are situations that would benefit from this idea of forgiveness. How's that go..."your mileage may vary". :)--> I'll go another step here, at the expense of sounding like I'm defending people, which I am I guess, but remember I'm an equal opportunity defender. :P--> People like yourself, Geek, Catcup, mj, everyone - you've earned the right for your voice to be heard. You've been dere, done dat. If you're sensitive to a particular topic, there's a reason, right? Of course there's a personal side to it - it's personal, it's you, it's your life. Geeks' original post said "Consider what forgiveness may bring to you." That's all. "Wanna talk about it?" I guess we are. Without the possibility of resolution, one on one, with whatever people are involved in a conflict, it becomes a very individual matter IMO. If there's no chance that someone's ever going to be able to face off with another person to resolve a conflict, it's up to you or me to resolve it on our end. How to do that is the question being posed I guess. That's all, or at least that's my take. I suspect you already have and what we're dealing with is the finer points of execution. If so, so be it.

I was going to name our 3rd child Alyean, ex but fortunately we stopped at two. Plus I needed a "j" name, and Jalean was out of the question for obvious reasons. :D--> Well, I'm glad I don't get paid for my stow-reez, Abi. :D--> Although if anyone was edified, exhorted or comforted please don't forget who brought you back from the edges of despair, come payday. ;)--> I'm just stumped on the forgiveness thing. I don't think we have to be geniuses, theologians or even serious hobbyists of the bible to understand Jesus's teachings on forgiveness. He taught forgive and I would use the word "magnanimous" to desribe the level of forgiveness He presented. I don't care if it's my brother, mother or my right hand, if someone messes with me enough times I am simply not going to want to forgive them. IE - I screw somebody over, they forgive me. I do it again. I say I'm sorry, they forgive me. I do it again, this time something different. I'm sorry this time, for real. They forgive me. I do the same thing again. When's it end? 7 X 7 X infinity? That sounds bizarre. Then we have situations where there is no resolution possible. The other person's out of touch and out of hand. Gone, dead, no longer part of my life. It's over. Forgive? Why? Plus all these situations where the other person/people are still around and if not getting away with the same thing, getting away with whatever it was that hurt me. In fact, they've already gotten away with it. Why forgive that? They've done nothing to deserve a clean start or for that matter not getting what's rightly coming to them. It doesn't make sense. But no matter how I turn it forgiveness is what He taught. He also taught working it out with the offender. He also taught restitution. Treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Overall, example after example of people forgiving those who would come forward and seek that forgiveness of one kind or another. So what about those who don't seek it? Ultimately He lived it when he died and prayed for His killers- "Father, forgive them, they don't know what they're doing". Whether they got it or not, Jesus asked for it on their behalf. Didn't He? My gut twists thinking about that because I have immense respect for Jesus and I know I'm not 1/2 the man who could do that. It's a very personal affair, this forgiveness business. It can be simple, complex. There can be consequences to our behavior even when forgiveness is extended. If anything, it's a worthy goal to aspire to, IMO. But whether anyone ever does regarding anything, it's their business. It doesn't erase an offense, far from it. It memorializes it, clarifies it, draws a line in the sand and says "this was wrong. I know it whether you do or not. And whether you recognize it or correct it, I know this was wrong. Even if you don't make it right, I'm not going to stop here, I'm going to act as if you did because I know that making it right would be the correct thing to do and I will proceed accordingly from this point on". Doessn't mean I have to ask for the same treatment again. But it clearly states my perspective on the matter.

And you're liked! :)--> A Christian and a Chrystian are arguing, think it was a Wednesday, although it doesn't matter really, they'll argue on any day. But I'm pretty sure this was on a Wednesday. Chris wants Chrys to drop the "y" and go to the "i". She says it's more accurate, more in line with the teachings of Christ. Hey, it's Christ right, not "Chryst"? Chrys says it doesn't matter to him either way, Christ is Christ no matter what. It gets hot, always does on important matters like this. Finally Chrys takes his bible, slams it shut and whacks Chris on the head with it. Big whack, leaves a mark. Chris is in shock. Atheist walks up and see the Chreestians are at it again and takes a poke too, two pokes actually if I remember right. Chris grabs the bible out of Chrys's hand and starts wailing on the Atheist with it, just whippin' him good. Chrys grabs it and does likewise until finally the Atheist runs away. Chrys and Chris shake hands and head out for coffee. "What were we arguing about?" says Chrys. Chris can't remember but they both agree to invite the atheist to church next Sunday. Chrys says "A little Chrystian love would do him good". Chris suddenly remembers what they were arguing about, says "We'll make it my church". Chrys says no, his. Turns into a major argument, which is normal for a Wednesday.

I've been pondering the Frying Pan, Song. Is it a big pan? What time of day is it? An Atheist and a Christian are arguing about something, don't remember what, doesn't matter really. They're always arguing about something. It gets hot, always does. And all of a sudden the Atheist just hauls off and col'cox the Christian right in the chin. WHAM! Knocks him back good. The Atheist starts to turn and walk away and suddenly feels the Christian's hand on his shoulder yanking him around and the guy lays a roundhouse punch right to the Atheist's face, square on the shnozz. Knocks him flat. The Atheist rubs his nose and looks up angrily. "Hey!!! You're a Christian!!! You're supposed to turn the other cheek! You're not supposed to do that!!!" The Christian reaches down and grabs him by the shirt and sets to lay another one right where the first one went and says "I'm not that kind of Christian". ------------------ Prologue: Next day the Christian extends his hand to the Atheist and says he's sorry. Atheist looks to see what's in his hand. Christian says "Really. I was wrong. But you made me mad. I'm human just like you. I'm sorry". Atheist shakes his hand and says "Deal, friends?". Christian smiles. "Friends". They both feel better for awhile, till next week they start arguing again. It gets hot, always does. Forget about what, doesn't matter really. They're always arguing about something.

A couple things come to mind in reference to the manifestations of the spirit, as we call them here, that have always been part of my guide on the matter. I've posted before, that years ago, after the time I first took PFAL, some of the people in the fellowship around the SF Bay Area decided to start making it a practice of praying when they got together. Any group of two or more, just an effort to bring a "spiritual" element into the normal course of a day's events. And if there were 3 or more, we'd have "manifestations". So this went on for several months. There was no leadership function established, just whoever and whenever. Or not. It was a very simple idea. Within a short time the manifestations began to change. They left the strict form we used initially which had often mimicked the sounds and messages we had heard before. They weren't always in the same voice, first person, third, etc. And they varied, sometimes words of praise to, for, about, etc. Sometimes a person would sing their manifestations. Sometimes they were simple, sometimes not. There were times when we'd talk about them, attempt to understand them better. If something didn't sound "right" I remember talking about it with those that were there. It wasn't automatically assumed that something wasn't right just because it didn't "sound" right or seemed unfamiliar. Basically it was an honest effort to learn and enjoy. Over the years I've thought several things about what happened at that time and in other situations where similar freedom was exercised- 1-Leadership within the body of Christ is a fluid and changing environment. When a structure is imposed on people they learn to behave in a certain way and become less prone to think and act for themselves. If their lives require something new they're not prepared to think or act in a potentially new way if required to, they're only prepared to do what they've always done before. Essential to leadership is the pastoral function - Christ brings us along with a protecting, guiding hand into new terrain. Growth occurs when we allow for it. Without such an environment, we become like human bonsai trees, unless the structure is such that it encourages, expects and learns to incorporate regular change. Over time the structure itself changes to reflect this growth. 2-That kind of freedom produces fear in many people. People like consistency, ritual, tradition. But if the traditions don't allow for dynamic activity, they become stale and confining regardless of what they are. Again, Christ shephered His people with care, understanding and guidance. 3-Dynamic change will come as a natural expression of the spirit of God. Left to expand on it's own, it will. The new nature of a Christian will develop as an infused part of their own souls, hearts, thoughts. "We" don't become something patterned after other people, we become "a new creation" that is uniquely us, ourselves. Likemindedness happens on a spritual level where agreement is a bond of the spirit more than any bond of agreement in thought we have. Collectively we form a body of thought and action that's diverse and given to "the mind of the spirit", acting towards objectives and goals that are likely going to be greater than what any individual part can clearly see. The resulting peace any one part experiences is as a result of living in concert with this greater vision, as our individual accomplishments contribute to it. Every person has pride in their own life, and pride in the life of the body of Christ. 4-The power of love is the most powerful thing we can know. Love is the natural expression of the spirit. Giving of all kinds at all times. Everyone can take a life, but love will give life to sustain another's. Everyone can do harm to another but love will forgive and restore hurt. Everyone can do what they're told, but love will design it's own actions when their are no instructions. Everyone can try, but love will persist to the end and beyond. Life is a love thing. :)-->

That's fine Billy D but normally...normally......usually....might be more like it, people that post positions on doctrinal subjects here do so and then discuss it. Others post responses if they want to and then a discussion, debate, and back-and-forth dicussion takes place. Jeff posts articles and that's that. He doesn't become personally involved in the topic he's posted on, and doesn't invite any other STF, CES or any other acronym to follow up and participate in a discussion. Which is fine, but it's a little non-personal. It's similar to advertising, even if it isn't advertising. If the topic is of such interest and perceived as possibly a valuable challenge, as you put it, to the ex-Way readers of this forum it just seems like that would be worth a certain amount of personal involvement. To me. But either way, big scones, y'know? After perusing the article I saw nothing new, nothing challenging nor anything that would constitute on face value a lengthy discussion, certainly not as long as this thread has gone (besides the fact that it's considered more fish-fillet, supposedly deboned to it's most edible and succulent essence and in a snappy rendering that the average bobbin-head reader might be able to follow). Since it's not, the only thing that would spark interest in me would be elaboration, elucidation and a little engagement. But if it's not worth that to someone, it's certainly not to me. Now please don't take this as vicious, vindictive or venemous. It's not meant to be. And if anyone else really enjoys these linked postings they're free to voice that too.

Soooooo... I guess that means we aren't going to see The List. So be it. I guess, well. Dunno. I'm very disappointed, Song. You've, well, you've kind of let me down here. But you're forgiven. :D--> :D--> :D--> (you knew that was coming, right? c'mon, gimme at least a chuckle or two, it took awhile to set that up. I knew there wasn't going to A List, but at least, we got a laugh! This ain't easy, it looks easy but it ain't. Takes time, experience, skill and patience. Please, if you're watching - don't try this at home!) "Awww, I don't get no respect, no respect. When I was born, the Doc, he spanked my mother! My Dad slapped him! He said 'Lemme do that!'...awww, I don't get no respect. No respect!"

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see the list. I want El Listos. Listos El Grande. Show me La List. Le List. Li List. The List of Shame. The List of Rejection. Give it to me, Song. Hard. Show the list.

Oaks, I think the point of proof is always to the person who the proof was proved. (I'm working on my illiteration, gimme time). I agree with you on the Thomas getting a bad rap idea. None of Jesus's disciples are said to have believed anything about His resurrection until they began to see physical indications. That event wasn't driven by humans "believing" for something to happen or that it could happen. It was done by God. And I see in the bible that while faith in the unseen is prominent, a great deal of faith is based on what WAS seen and that the "faith" developed from experience and was handed down. I maintain that a person's faith is their own, we each have our own and that I can't have yours nor you mine. They may be similar, very much "the same" but the essence and core of what we accept and over time intuitively "know" to be true is unique to each of us as individuals. No matter that we may believe the same thing, as an example. What happens to you is real to you. I may accept it, believe it and understand it, but it will never truly be a part of "me". That to me is the voice of Thomas. "You guys saw Him, fine. I need to see Him too". If we share in the same experience, we each have a separate registration of the event, one that's our own. Catcup's "proof" isn't to you in other words. It could be taped, and we'd never know if the tape was tampered with. We could confirm it hadn't been tampered with but we'd never be able to recapture the actual event. 20 people could all say they heard the same thing but they didn't really - they heard what each of them heard of a single event that occured. Without getting too philosophically mushy, I think it's preferable to use the word "consider" rather than "believe" when it comes to other people's accounts of anything. As in, all things considered, it it possible given the person and the facts as stated. Not necessarily iron clad probable, but possible. Although I think Catcup's simply stating the facts as she experienced them, that's where a person can logically go IMO. If there was proof to be had in that incident in other words, it would never really be to you. You have to have your own proof. Or not. If you never do, it's not up to me to insist you accept mine, my reasons, my facts, my conclusions. You could, but that's your decision and obviously should be based on more than a few words. Why do some people have "proof" and others not? I don't know. It may be that in the retelling we have an opportunity to direct our expectations and perceptions towards what's possible and ultimately knowable by our own selves. That's how I see the bible.

Beta..."The beta version of a product still awaits full debugging or full implementation of all its functionality, but satisfies a majority of the requirements. Beta versions (or just betas) stand at an intermediate step in the full development cycle." You gotta hold for the gold. :D--> Next Oprah - couch potato a peel!

You're forgiven. :P-->

Chas, I think you have the workflow of the Way down well enough to be a Way Consultant! :D--> Steve! I never read about that. Sounds a lot like "Double Session Syndrome". That was when a Limb Coordinator would be under pressure to run concurrent PFAL classes, and have a class here or there that wasn't going to finish on time. So he'd get the class coordinator to run double sessions on the weekends. Two - 3 hour sessions in a day, with breaks, plus a potluck. But it was time with the Family so it was fun. Where DSS would set in the worst was during the summer, where people would actually sit in metal folding chairs for hour after hour and their azzes and lower backs would actually bond with the brown paint of the chair and then when they'd stand up.....sss-rrrr-iiiii-ppp---sssshhhh! It would peel the paint right off. But it was blessed paint so it was okay. Really. Where can I read more about that couch thingie? That person may have been in a makeup session, you never know.

They're getting "smart". Sort of. If they'd have any vision at all and weren't still trying to figure out why those beta video tapes won't fit in a vhs player, they would have done some research about 15 years ago and started using internet tools to connect and reach their congregation. They could have registered every possible rendition of their name and covered their azzes with all of the names that would or could apply, like: thewaysuks thewaybites thewaymeltedmybrain theway_nowayman thewaysmells thewaystinx thewayisfilledwitholdweirdpeople thewaycan'tsing thewaycan'tdance thewayhurtsmyheadsoistoppedgoing it would have been easy to do, and still would be. All they have to do is put themselves in the shoes of the people they've mistreated, abused and scorned over the years and from that mindset, imagined what 98 per cent of all the people they've ever dealt with might say if asked the question "tell us what the Way brings to your mind, in 10 words or less". Then register domain names accordingly. By redirecting to their own site, they cover more bases, including the vast majority of virtually everyone in the world who's ever had anything to do with the Way and who know that, in fact, they do indeed szuk. But it's a sweet justice, as they have to do the registering and work. To "protect" their vast interests. Who says there's no god? :)-->

Well, it's got to be greed. Their heads already have a place - their butz, so that need's been met. Having additional quarters would fall in to the greed category.

JT, that's something they'r very good at changing, I forgot about that. New video? - "Changed" ...just when you thought they had their story straight... coming soon!

I think 5 would be a good number though. That way there'd always be at least 3 if they need to fire one or two along the way. But if they really wanted to change the light bulb, they'd have to get help as it would require one of them to actually get up off their butz and do some work and it's been so long since they've done any work their butz would probably resist and possibly even fall off.

:D--> :D--> :D--> Can board members really change anything?

Dang tootin' George. Getyer mind right, we will! IF the PFAL series led people to do the wrong thing - 1000's of people all being "led" in to manifesting and then doing it over and over 1000's of times - all of these people just sure that what they're doing is right by the Word, their hearts, the results, all of that...it casts an ever so small shadow over someone coming along, poking at a bone or two and then basically doing the same thing. It says something to me. I'm not saying that we were taught right or wrong. I'm just saying that my experience of 21 years of doing this, seeing it, teaching it, leading it, etc. etc. ... tells me that perfectly good hearted and well intended people have a way of doing what they're told to do when they place their trust in the people telling them what to do. And then reinforcing that through repetition and validating it with their own experiences and the encouragement of the people telling them what to do. Which is fine I guess. But for example, the difference between a manufactured model of a dog is much different than a real dog. A model looks and smells like a dog. It IS a dog, it just doesn't actually wag it's tail or dump on your lawn. But a real dog barks and jumps and licks you and chases down the frisbee and growls at strangers. It's a dog. I really have to wonder if we know the difference. The way some people view their faith they can get the stuffed pooch and be perfectly happy. Sure, I have to drag it behind me cause it doesn't walk on it's own, but it's a perfectly servicable pet. That's a little of how I feel when I see that people have to be led by the nose to get this stuff to "work right". Maybe I'm over analyzing. I respect what people do in honest faith, or I try to anyway. I should add that despite my comments I like the John Lynn I knew, who's probably a lot like the John Lynn of now. At any rate, he was a good friend. So my critique ain't personal, by any means.

That's it Geo. 24X7, no waiting. I lost count of how many times the article states "it's important to note" and "it's unfortunate" but it's enough times to know there's important stuff to note and unfortunately, some people aren't notating enough apparently. I always take issue with a Tips and Hints section to teachings on operating holy spirit, be it manifestations, gifts, or whatchcallit. Let's call it mannie's for short. "Praise vocabulary"? Words to start with to get directed correctly? I thmell a thee and thou forthcoming, thir. What happened to authentic behavior? IE, e.g. and to wit, a question - if a person was taught the acc'racy of God's Word and led to believe that they could act accordingly in faith, wouldn't the correct results follow? Or no? If a person has to be taught what to say, what it's supposed to sound like and the kinds of words and messages that should be coming out, what are we really doing here? It's just a question.

Just claim it!

I still think we need a forum titled "John Lynn's Stuff - The Real You Is Finally Here!" Then Jeff, you could place all of John Lynn's writings, transcripts of tapes, doodles, whatever, right there. It'd be cool.

Actually, I have seen dead people come back to life. It was in Ohio, at a supper meal, dead of winter. Somebody said "there's seconds!"

I thought this was one of those "...to screw in a lightbulb" questions, "how many staffers does it take to screw in a light bulb?" -just saw Mr. Hammeroni addressed this-to which I would add, it takes.... ------------------- 1 to explain the reason it's been dark for a week is your lack of believing because light bulbs could work forever if you'd ever really believe. 1 to reprove the maintenance person who was spiritually responsible for the bulb and who "made it dark". 1 to remember how someone once believed for a bulb to stay on after the power went out in alllllll of Shelby County. 1 to reprove that person for promoting "old wineskin" thinking. 1 to mark and avoid everyone involved with the entire "burnt out bulb" incident because they're all obviously homo's. 278 to deny any knowledge of any "light bulbs", and any screwing of said light bulb, either now or at any time in the past, or any persons alive or deceased who may or may not have touched the light bulb, if there had been a light bulb, which there probably wasn't. At least as far as they know. 1 to schedule the deposition to take their statements. 1 to write the next Way Magazine article titled "Victorious Living in Light", drawing deep parallels between light, plant growth and people. 1 to do the typo corrections to the article during the day because the burnt out bulb was in the Magazine department trailer. 1 to buy a truckload of light bulbs at half price, thus saving the ministry untold dollars. 1 to find out that the light bulbs only work in night lights. 1 to go to the A & P in Sydney and buy a pack of light bulbs, change the light, and be declared the new Maintenance Spiritual Leader for Our Day And Time. That oughta about do it.

ROR - Kid Rock derailment, I know. I've always felt the best part of rap and hip hop is the humor. There's some funny chit in that music sometimes, Kid Rock can do some schtick that's for sure. I think there's really 2 questions on this topic (at least) Renouncing the Way? Renouncing the Word? If it's a question of the "leadership" of the Way and their activities, it's pretty easy for people to just switch boats. Take all the teaching and ritual and just move to a different church with different leaders. Instant Offshoot. Everything you want, nothing you don't. Problem solved, at least for awhile and for some things. That oversimplifies it, but I think some people have gone that route and are happy. It solves the unchangable "MOG" syndrome. It solves the unreachable "BOT" syndrome. There's a lot of alternatives and options that open up once a person decides they're better off ending formal contact with the Way. But if a person simply finds it unacceptable to be a member of the Way due to what it's leaders do and have done they're right in leaving. Regardless of the number of times, the problems, the issues, or the methods tried, one thing that the Way International is not known for throughout it's history is changing anything substantial about what it does due to membership complaints. They may fire someone or move people around in their positions but they don't look at their core teachings to see if there are root causes in what they believe causing the problems. They don't like to talk about stuff and offer no public hearings of complaints or problems. Look at them now - they project that all their problems are solved because they've gotten rid of the "bad ones". The ones left are the "good ones". If you stay though there's some risk involved. Which goes to the 2nd question - the Word, the teaching of the Way. If the situation is - a person finds that the teaching itself is in error through the actions of the Way membership, let's say again the "leaders", then some kind of effort to resolve that is going to be required. Period. Unfortunately that's the reason a lot of people have stepped back and taken a second or third look at the whole of the Way's teachings. So it's personal, immediate. But that's not abnormal. Most of us go along the way we've always been until something upsets the apple cart. The Way presents it's doctrinal suit wholecloth. It comes in a package, it's "all truth", start to finish and to take a part of it requires taking it all. Because they present themselves as the "one true household" standing on the pure truth there really aren't any alternatives offered. There's lip service paid to not knowing it all but nothing substantial ever changes unless it's decreed by the current man/woman "of God". In that way they aren't (and have never been) much different than any of the denominations they criticize. The whole baby/bathwater description of these things oversimplifies the entire matter IMO. Same with the eat-the-fish/spit out the bones thing. These kinds of analogies assume to argue that what you had was the "baby", and the whole meal. For those who feel that way, I say fine. Have at it. If you don't the Way's teaching may be more like a crab than a fish. Properly prepared you can pick out the meat but the entire crab shell gets tossed. Where do I fall? I really value all my Way years mostly because of the people I met and got to be around, work with, etc. I was able to learn a lot of things and at the time it was probably all I could learn because of the choices I was willing to make. As I've grown, I've changed. If the person I am today was given the same choices as when I was 20, I'd choose differntly in regards to the Way and pursuing the teaching. But it's a conundrum - I wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to make that choice without the years of learning. Could God have directed me differntly? Did he and I ignored it? Or did He point "there!" and I went. Maybe it's not all that simple. Dunno. But where I landed was where I landed. So to me, it's a life lived and learned by. At this point I simply don't see the Way's teaching as a baby, a fish or really any kind of seafood to be honest. Life is bigger than that to me now. Don't tell me I can't write long posts!!! :D-->

No, it was a joke Sky. A meager attempt at "inside" humor, the inside being my brain. From in here, the view is clear and sunny. I'll have to identify my jokes from now on © ®. Although now I'm probably going to have a dream about Dorothy Owens wearing a snoot boot and Linda Z and the Way Mag staff at the 'head table' but with no food, just plates filled with blue forms as Dorothy says "you're using the wrong fork, that's the salad fork!!! © ®